The railways in 1963 vs 2023 - what would you prefer?

[Harpers Tate]

What were they in the past?

Line speed which was at least 70 I believe (based on viewing the speedo on a DMU). Now 20 at both, I believe.

 

[The Planner]

Line speed which was at least 70 I believe (based on viewing the speedo on a DMU). Now 20 at both, I believe.

Cottingham is 20 on the down only. 70 on the up. Everything stops at Cottingham and Beverley, so what is the issue?

Edit: I am willing to bet Cottingham is due to sighting on the foot crossing.

 

[tyburn]

For the historical sense, 1963, being able to experience many branches and lines that are very much forgotten about today. However, for reliability, cleanliness and safety, I would 100% choose 2023

 

[jadmor]

In 1963 , My local station, Rosyth, had one train more or less every hour to Edinburgh; the "eccentriicity" of service intervals back then was pretty standard on all the lines in the area, and was not a great incentive to travel by train when the buses were offering 2 per hour over the newly- opened forth bridge. We didn't get a regular interval timetable untill the early seventies, and 2 trains an hour until (I think) the l990s. When you look at a 1963 timetable for somewhere like Galashiels, it makes it easier to understand why so many lines were shedding passengers at this time. Certainly, the railway was more "interesting" in those years, but that is because large parts of the system were effectively working museums.

 

[Spamcan81]

1963 without a doubt.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I realise that 1963 was chosen because it's exactly sixty years ago but I'm surprised no-one's mentioned that temperatures didn't rise above freezing on any day of the first two months of the year. In those days, temperatures were measured in Fahrenheit and 0 degrees F was hit overnight more than once in early January. Very few diesel locos and dmu remained in service, either due to fuel waxing or just inadequate frost prevention, and condemned steam locos. were brought back into service. In those days rail was the form of transport that could be relied upon to attempt to provide a service and travel by roadwas very difficult indeed. There's a B.T. film of snow clearing on the Stainmore route on You-Tube, and this gives an impression of the conditions. Locally we had 49448, an ex LNWR 0-8-0, fitted with a snow plough as high as the chimney to force the way though drifts.
And, as an aside, I was at senior school then and, like my fellow pupils, didn't miss a single day's school. We had a few difficulties; the (underground) water main in our street froze, for instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was at senior school then and, like my fellow pupils, didn't miss a single day's school.

The issues snow etc cause to schools are mostly because teachers can't get there by car, not because of the kids who could mostly walk. Because most households need both people working, you have to live in a compromise location which tends to mean commuting - living within walking distance of work was something that only really worked with one breadwinner and much greater stability of employment.

 

[Magdalia]

I realise that 1963 was chosen because it's exactly sixty years ago but I'm surprised no-one's mentioned that temperatures didn't rise above freezing on any day of the first two months of the year.

There was a discussion about this last winter, see here:

60 Years ago - the 62-63 Winter

It's suddenly struck me that 60 years ago yesterday, Boxing Day 1962, my brother and I caught a 2-car EMU (60XX series) from Headcorn to Charing Cross. It was under leaden skies, and at Tonbridge, which still had a handful of steam locos on shed visible in the fast-fading light, the snow began...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[WAO]

Steam heating froze in the winter so that when it was cold so were the customers.

Fog meant fog-men and 20mph.

The LMR and ER often didn't offer CDR's across their boundaries, so smartly through the barrier to re-book at ManVic. Sometimes a valid outward wasn't valid to return!

Mark 1 seats were deeply sprung because the BR1's rode so roughly.

Services were usually sparser and fares seemed more expensive relative to the then wage levels.

Stations were painted nicely in Regional colours in the early 1950's; by 1963, they were peeling and shabby. The Gents' smelled disgustingly.

I never saw a clean steam loco until I saw one in preservation.

The Lime Street drivers were marvellous in letting us schoolboy urchins "cab" their LMS express loco's.

The station tea cups were really unbreakable.

Still, good for the time.

WAO

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....what is the issue?

We were talking about 1963 as a comparison - and that was not the case then. Summer "expresses" happened - and didn't slow down.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Steam heating froze in the winter so that when it was cold so were the customers.



WAO

I had a Crewe Works permit for early Jan, 1963 (booked in August 1962 - the first date available). Changing at Rugby on to the Royal Scot no problem get there in plenty of time for the visit on a crack train. The Scot rolled in with a D200 and a Black Five on the front - super power! Wrong! The clue was the the crew of the Black 5 were lounging against the cab windows. They were there for 'steam heat' and that's what they did, just that. So the already underpowered D200 not only had to lug 12 (? maybe more) Mk1s but also a Black 5 in very light steam, only for lubrication. The D200 absolutely flat out, got up to about 40 on the level, lost time hand over fist even the very lax schedule, and I was refused entry to the works - 'too late, son'. But I was warm (ish). The ice was melting from the inside of the windows after about half an hour - must have been very cold leaving Euston. And I'm still bitter about what I missed on the Works.

There was a discussion about this last winter, see here:

60 Years ago - the 62-63 Winter

It's suddenly struck me that 60 years ago yesterday, Boxing Day 1962, my brother and I caught a 2-car EMU (60XX series) from Headcorn to Charing Cross. It was under leaden skies, and at Tonbridge, which still had a handful of steam locos on shed visible in the fast-fading light, the snow began...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks; somehow I missed that completely.

 

[Irascible]

There's something to be said for the optimistic time of the early HSTs and potential for the APT. But what was true of back then was that stations were really, really dirty, and often badly run down.

The railway - and public realm generally - is so much cleaner now.

I can't remember 1973 - I was alive, but far too young to have any memory - but I can remember 1977 fine ( and 1983 ) - and the railways weren't really much cleaner then. HSTs running for massive distances under semaphores & a railway little changed from steam ( CWR wasn't new, but at least deeper ballast was as well as various other benefits of having BR Research ). It was ok though, I just enjoyed the travelling.

 

[yoyothehobo]

2023. Because this rose tinted nostalgia for the early 60s is one of the biggest issue with trying to get worthwhile stuff done on the railways today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2023. Because this rose tinted nostalgia for the early 60s is one of the biggest issue with trying to get worthwhile stuff done on the railways today.

A bit of nostalgia can be good, though. For instance Marylebone and Paddington are nicer than Euston.

 

[yoyothehobo]

A bit of nostalgia can be good, though. For instance Marylebone and Paddington are nicer than Euston.

Yes and which one of these is from 1963

 

[Irascible]

2023. Because this rose tinted nostalgia for the early 60s is one of the biggest issue with trying to get worthwhile stuff done on the railways today.

Yes, nostalgia is far more of an impediment than a fragmented system, everything costing a fortune & being built down to bare minimums.

I bet most of the posters weren't even alive in 1963, it's hardly nostalgia when you never got the experience to look back on. Those of us who can just dig up the 70s got *a* version of it, I guess.

 

[yorksrob]

2023. Because this rose tinted nostalgia for the early 60s is one of the biggest issue with trying to get worthwhile stuff done on the railways today.

In what way though ?

It's not nostalgia that's preventing electrification, trains that are long enough to provide the capacity to grow the business or provide a competitive fares system.

Nostalgia barely features on the railways list of problems today.

 

[AM9]

2023. Because this rose tinted nostalgia for the early 60s is one of the biggest issue with trying to get worthwhile stuff done on the railways today.

One thing in this thread that was inevitable was the comments about relative seat comfort of the MKI BR rolling stock, (much of the big four stock had been replaced by MKI by 1963. Anyone who can genuinely remember those metal and straw-stuffed cushions in the early '60s in terms of (adult) passenger comfort would now be well past 70 years of age. The difference of physical fitness between a teenager and a septuagenarian is means that tolerance of seating with poor posture would be easy in those early years and much more difficult now, especially when leaving the seat. Even in the '70s, regularly riding class 305/307 & 308 EMUs, there were times at the end of the day when rising from the 'six-a-side' bench seats could be quite strenuous, despite my fairly avareage fitness at the time. Despite their firmness, the class 700 seats, much derided by a few here, the eas of sitting down on and standing up from them leaves the old bouncy seats way behind.

 

[yorksrob]

One thing in this thread that was inevitable was the comments about relative seat comfort of the MKI BR rolling stock, (much of the big four stock had been replaced by MKI by 1963. Anyone who can genuinely remember those metal and straw-stuffed cushions in the early '60s in terms of (adult) passenger comfort would now be well past 70 years of age. The difference of physical fitness between a teenager and a septuagenarian is means that tolerance of seating with poor posture would be easy in those early years and much more difficult now, especially when leaving the seat. Even in the '70s, regularly riding class 305/307 & 308 EMUs, there were times at the end of the day when rising from the 'six-a-side' bench seats could be quite strenuous, despite my fairly avareage fitness at the time. Despite their firmness, the class 700 seats, much derided by a few here, the eas of sitting down on and standing up from them leaves the old bouncy seats way behind.

On the contrary, plenty of us are young enough to have experienced thumper, CIG and EPB seating. Rock hard seats that give you an aching arse after an hour don't compare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the contrary, plenty of us are young enough to have experienced thumper, CIG and EPB seating. Rock hard seats that give you an aching arse after an hour don't compare.

I've sat on plenty of old style deep-sprung seats on various preserved railways and on the Southern in the last days of slamdoors, and I've never liked them. Vastly prefer a decent modern seat with well-shaped foam.

My present "best seat award" goes to the ones used in the Pendolino refurb and on Lumo. (I don't like Lumo for other reasons, but the seats are good!)

 

[AM9]

I've sat on plenty of old style deep-sprung seats on various preserved railways and on the Southern in the last days of slamdoors, and I've never liked them. Vastly prefer a decent modern seat with well-shaped foam.

My present "best seat award" goes to the ones used in the Pendolino refurb and on Lumo. (I don't like Lumo for other reasons, but the seats are good!)

Just as i expected, I have moderate back problems, and found the deep seats OK when just shipped from refurb, but dire after three months of heavy use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just as i expected, I have moderate back problems, and found the deep seats OK when just shipped from refurb, but dire after three months of heavy use.

I do too, and replaced my sofa with Ikea Poang chairs, which are a bit like first class railway seats (but bouncier), and the back issues reduced. Deep sprung seats are very bad for posture, as they provide no support whatsoever and encourage slouching.

 

[The Planner]

Nostalgia barely features on the railways list of problems today.

What does restoring your railway do if it isnt nostalgia? No one is interested if someone wants to build a new line like East West or HS2, if anything there is more response to stop it. As soon as someone suggests reopening an old line its all about righting the wrongs of Beeching and it should never had closed.

 

[Bevan Price]

For the historical sense, 1963, being able to experience many branches and lines that are very much forgotten about today. However, for reliability, cleanliness and safety, I would 100% choose 2023

2023 - Reliable ???
Tell me where are there no daily cancellations, please .......

 

[Sorcerer]

In an ideal world (at least for the rail enthusiast) you'd have the 1963 railway with 2023 levels of modernisation, albeit with less of the issues relating to delays, cancellations and staff shortages etc. Can't speak for reality though.

 

[APT618S]

1963, no contest.
Lots of loco hauled trains, steam plus diesel (Deltics, Westerns, 40s etc).
I find seating much more comfy on the preserved MK Is I have travelled on in the last few years than a lot of modern seats, especially 80x.
Trains would tend to be diverted rather than cancelled like today if they could not run over the normal route.
Lots of overnight trains on the railway in 1963 so I assume a lot of major stations would be open 24/7 so the concept of a last train and then locking the station up would not exist.

 

[yorksrob]

What does restoring your railway do if it isnt nostalgia? No one is interested if someone wants to build a new line like East West or HS2, if anything there is more response to stop it. As soon as someone suggests reopening an old line its all about righting the wrongs of Beeching and it should never had closed.

I have to disagree on your opinion on the following points:

-Restoring your railway is a wonderful way of connecting communities to the railway network, but please explain how this is holding up the existing railway ?

-Clearly people are interested in EW, otherwise it wouldn't be happenning. This is the Varsity route. Does it cease to become nostalgia once a certain amount of concrete been poured, then it becomes a reopening ?

-The original post was opining that nostalgia was the point of nostalgia holding back the development of the railway.

@The Planner, do you seriously consider nostalgia being one of the main challenges facing the operation and development of the railway today ?

 

[Magdalia]

much of the big four stock had been replaced by MKI by 1963.

In 1963 there was still quite a lot of pre-Nationalisation coaching stock. Many branch line trains that were still loco hauled had pre-Nationalisation coaching stock, for example Rugby-Peterborough and Northampton-Peterborough were nearly always Stanier LMS coaches.

And summer Saturday trains, reliefs and excursions would have been predominantly pre-Nationalisation coaching stock.

Most of them were withdrawn very quickly after Beeching.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In 1963 there was still quite a lot of pre-Nationalisation coaching stock. Many branch line trains that were still loco hauled had pre-Nationalisation coaching stock, for example Rugby-Peterborough and Northampton-Peterborough were nearly always Stanier LMS coaches.

And summer Saturday trains, reliefs and excursions would have been predominantly pre-Nationalisation coaching stock.

Most of them were withdrawn very quickly after Beeching.

The final purge of pre-Nationalisation 'day' stock happened around 1969 on safety grounds, I understand. The Mk1 could sustain an end loading of 200 tons force, but the pre-Nat all-steel designs were generally calculated as being 100 tons f. and I think someone at 222's C.M.&E.E.. panicked about the effects in a high speed mishap. There were LMS and GW design 'day' coaches that lasted long enough to be repainted blue & grey, mostly the LMS design BR built CKs with the revised profile, and G.W. 'Hawksworth' design with the taper down at the roof ends.
LMS and LNER design sleeping cars lasted longer, into the 1970s, and many (including most of the postwar LMS 12 wheelers) received blue & grey.
L.M.S. designs seem to ride much better at speed than the Mk1s (which might have been based on the Bulleids), and, in the early days of L.M. electrification up to about 1968-9 you could travel in one qt 90 mph (legitimately) and sometimes 100. Certainly there was less or no hunting, but, under heavy braking, the blocks made an interesting, foundry - like, smell.
Don't know why the pre-war, wooden bodied Gresley buffets lasted so long against the rules, though.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

On the Southern we had luxurious shiny new CEP's and not quite as luxurious, but still quite comfortable HAP's in Kent.

PAN-PUL's in Sussex with the first CIG's coming on line in the next year.

On some of those secondary routes that we no longer have, rickety old push - pull steam sets had even been replaced with state of the art new thumpers.

Full thumper service on the Hastings main line etc.

Not an ironing board seat or clinical florescent light in sight.

And if that wasn't enough, you could upgrade to first class !

And not a single train that was suitable / accessible for those sadly less able than us to travel on!