The State Of Rail Travel In Lincolnshire

[sheff'd victoria]

I'm a Scheme Project Manager for Track Renewals at NR,

On the original topic of this thread, I'm currently managing a project to renew track between Boston and Skegness. We're renewing 12 miles of the up line between Sibsey and Wainfleet this year, with 24 miles of further renewal to come in the coming two years to make the track fit for heavier, loco hauled trains. This will enable more carriages to be hauled on the route, relieving capacity issues. The track is also being renewed as welded track as opposed to the present jointed, making for a smoother ride.

I apologise for the disruption to both routes this year, but hope that those of you who use them will appreciate the difference we have made to them as a result of this investment.

Im delighted that this line is been upgraded .

A few questions

Is the sections that are single track between Sleaford & Skeggy are these to be doubled ?

Is the line speed to be increased on the new section of track ?

Are any of the old signal box's been replaced as there seems to be some sort of building work next to the box at Sleaford Station ?

 

[Katherine]

I have an idea regarding the re-instatement of direct services from Boston to Peterborough that drew inspiration from the recent re-modelling of the railway north of Grantham. Most of the structure for this is already in place.

The new bit of track could be modelled on the Allington Chord layout to connect the Poacher Line with the Lincoln - Peterborough line west of Heckington with an Allington-esque loop chord built in a large arc round from Heckington to Burton Pedwardine.

With new stations along the line to maximise passenger numbers and revenue, the all-stopper service could be (with new stations in italics):

Skegness
Havenhouse
Wainfleet
Thorpe Culvert
Sibsey
Boston
Hubberts Bridge
Swineshead
Heckington
Helpringham
Donington
Pinchbeck
Spalding
Littleworth
Deeping Parkway
Werrington
Peterborough

'Fast' trains woulod stop at:

Skegness
Wainfleet
Boston
Heckington
Donington
Spalding
Deeping Parkway
Peterborough

 

[poshbakerloo]

Lincoln has suffered in the railway department. There is no direct link to London and going to Sheffield from there takes 1hr 15mins! I always think an express link to Manchester Picc should start...

Manchester-Stockport-Sheffield-Worksop-Lincoln...

 

[Katherine]

Lincoln has suffered in the railway department. There is no direct link to London

To be rectified in May 2011 via ECML, joining at Newark.

 

[tbtc]

Lincoln has suffered in the railway department. There is no direct link to London

Other than the daily EMT service?

I agree that Sheffield - Lincoln could be spruced up, there has to be scope for a "fast" service alongside the current 'all stops' service (though I'd suggest Retford (for ECML) and Gainsborough are worth stopping at too)

 

[Katherine]

Of course, if they electrify Newark - Lincoln (at least), then East Coast services between Lincoln and London would be even quicker!

 

[tbtc]

Of course, if they electrify Newark - Lincoln (at least), then East Coast services between Lincoln and London would be even quicker!

...in which case there'd be more of a case for wiring up Sheffield - Retford - Lincoln if/when they finally do the MML in a generation's time (plus Nottingham - Newark Castle)

 

[Katherine]

Oh, hello BTW!

 

[Bellwater]

Well, i Work Skeg to Nottm and Lincoln to Sleaford/Nottm so i'll chuck my two pence in.

When the Joint line is upgraded hopefully the service will be as well. There are Three Signalboxes and numerous manned crossings between Sleaford and Spalding, all working on daytime shifts. hence why EMT(and CT/BR before)run Sleaford and Spalding turnbacks on mornings and evenings.

The Grimsby-Lincoln-Newark Service is well loaded in the mornings and evenings despite the restricted hours, as are the Sleaford to Lincoln shuttle services. The alternative for the latter is an infrequent bus that takes twice as long.

Personally i would like:

Grimsby-Newark North Gate becomes Grimsby-Nottingham
(Nottingham-Leicester becomes a shuttle again like Loughborough-Leicester was)
A new Boston-Peterborough service as Katherine has mentioned(far bit of commuting between the two)

And relaying Spalding-March would be nice, run a service to Ely, but there's a housing estate in the way now!!

 

[Katherine]

In addition, direct Skegness/Boston - Lincoln services (that happened in days of old) should be reintroduced because the necessary track layout is already there at Sleaford. Ideally, I'd like 3 services per hour through Boston each way.

1 train per hour for services to Nottingham
1 train per hour for services to Peterborough
1 train per hour for services to Lincoln

This would result in more services available (3 per hour) to holidaymakers in the summer heading for the coast at Skegness and beyond. It would probably go some way to improving the resort's economy during the winter too. The Lincoln service would remove the need to change at Sleaford, where waiting times for connecting trains on the Lincoln - Sleaford - Peterborough line can vary widely from just ten minutes to nearly an hour!

Construction of what I call my Burton Pedwardine chord would remove the need to undergo a trip of nearly an hour across to Grantham to get to a frequent service to London. Again, it's a lottery at Sleaford regarding connection times from there to Peterborough and it's a route option I don't take.

Finally, I would extend westbound services currently terminating at Nottingham to do so at Derby, or perhaps have a couple of those services run to Sheffield via Nottingham.

 

[tbtc]

Finally, I would extend westbound services currently terminating at Nottingham to do so at Derby, or perhaps have a couple of those services run to Sheffield via Nottingham.

That would be very useful round these parts - A fair few people from South Yorkshire invade Skeg each summer or keep caravans there all year round - given that the alternative "seaside" destination from Sheffield is Cleethorpes, I reckon it would convince more people to visit Skegness

 

[Failed Unit]

That would be very useful round these parts - A fair few people from South Yorkshire invade Skeg each summer or keep caravans there all year round - given that the alternative "seaside" destination from Sheffield is Cleethorpes, I reckon it would convince more people to visit Skegness

All sounds very BR to me

BR used to do Skegness - Derby (and Derby - Crewe). This was altered to Skegness - Nottingham and Nottingham - Crewe before the route was joined up.

I doubt we have enough demand for 3 trains per hour between Skegness and Sleaford.

A couple of things I have always thought could be useful however is if the London - Lincoln service was routed via Sleaford it would give Spalding a direct service to London and Skegness could be change at Sleaford. I know that would cause problems on the ECML as Newark would only have 1tph.

Skegness - Sheffield via Lincoln (again something BR used to do).
Maybe Skegness, Wainfleet, Boston, Heckington, Sleaford, Ruskington, Methringham, Lincoln, Gainsborough Lea Road, Retford, Worsop and Sheffield.

 

[merlodlliw]

I am sure before Central left the Chester/Shrewsbury line, it ran trains from
Skegness to Chester & back, the journey was many hours, and the distance
became a disaster to timekeeping.

If it was not Skegness, it was a hell of a run to from the East Coast.


M

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure before Central left the Chester/Shrewsbury line, it ran trains from
Skegness to Chester & back, the journey was many hours, and the distance
became a disaster to timekeeping.

If it was not Skegness, it was a hell of a run to from the East Coast.


M

Not sure if they ever ran to Skegness, but they certainly ran to Grimbsy lots.

You could do some pretty good long distance runs like Pwhelli - Grimsby on a direct train.

Grimsby - Lincoln - Nottingham - Leicester - Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Chester. You could even do it all the way on a 153 or 150/1 (and often needed to)

The timekeeping issue was nothing to do with the distance, although DaFT used that as an excuse to butcher the route. Most of the delays happened around New Street. When the route was split the delays still happened it was just that people in Lincolnshire were hit worse by them as they had now missed the connection rather than been sat on the late train. Somehow DaFT seemed to think that been 1 hour late due to a missed connection was better than been 20 minutes late due to a late train.

The other issue was the tight turnarounds at Grimsby, often only 10 minutes, not really useful for a train that has just come on a 5 hour+ journey, even if it was on time there was never time to clean the train between runs! I don't think the turnarounds were much better at the other end. It did give people in Chester a chance to read the Lincolnshire echo however

 

[merlodlliw]

Not sure if they ever ran to Skegness, but they certainly ran to Grimbsy lots.

You could do some pretty good long distance runs like Pwhelli - Grimsby on a direct train.

Grimsby - Lincoln - Nottingham - Leicester - Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Chester. You could even do it all the way on a 153 or 150/1 (and often needed to) end quote
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
you are correct it was Grimsby from Chester, and as Central ran from Pwlhelli
they may well have done the same, as you mention the disaster area was
Birmingham New St congestion. And yes we read some strange papers left on the old Central trains between Wrexham & Chester,also like ATW today no one seems to clean out the rubbish anymore.

 

[Failed Unit]

I used to travel every other Saturday on a train that had set of from Pwlhelli at about 0930, it was about 1430 by the time it used to appear in Lincoln heading for Grimsby. In fact from personal experience the only train that was regularly delayed was the one that left around 1700 which "only" started at Birmingham.

At the time trains came from Aberystwth - Grimsby and returned to Chester. The timekeeping from a personal point of view was no better or worse than it is now.

I certainly miss been able to travel to direct to Birmingham, the extra 30 minutes due to the connection is not something we have welcomed in Lincolnshire. As I said earlier much nicer to sit on a train an know you will get to your destination even if it is late rather than get chucked onto a cold platform at Nottingham then a taxi from Lincoln to Market Rasen, :roll: That progress for you!

 

[merlodlliw]

yes indeed progress.


M

 

[trainfanatic]

It's nice and encouraging to see the level of interest and enthusiasm for the improvement of the railway system of Lincolnshire, but how much of this discussion is pie in the sky?

The population level even including Lincoln cannot sustain such an increase in services as proposed here.

And what about all the freight envisioned to use the Peterboro/Doncaster line? A well known railway magazine is suggesting a 100 freight movements a day!!

It is encouraging though to see some imrovements in the infrastructure, like the signalling improvements around Sleaford, but when is the Sleaford avoiding line due to be upgraded?

 

[Failed Unit]

It's nice and encouraging to see the level of interest and enthusiasm for the improvement of the railway system of Lincolnshire, but how much of this discussion is pie in the sky?

The population level even including Lincoln cannot sustain such an increase in services as proposed here.

And what about all the freight envisioned to use the Peterboro/Doncaster line? A well known railway magazine is suggesting a 100 freight movements a day!!

It is encouraging though to see some imrovements in the infrastructure, like the signalling improvements around Sleaford, but when is the Sleaford avoiding line due to be upgraded?

Yes a lot of it is,

But the basics could be done very easily:

clockface hourly Peterborough - Lincoln with decent connections into the ECML. This could be done with the present stock levels as a lot of time is wasted slowing down to 20mph due to farm crossings. The current line speed is 50mph, this will be increased after the upgrade. The current service is not that far off anyway.

Every otherhour clockface Lincoln - Doncaster again connecting into Doncaster with services to Leed and Newcastle. This would only take 1 unit as it does today.

Lincoln - Nottingham improvements will be harder due to the ECML conflict but clockface Grimsby - Nottingham should not be problem either using the existing resources.

Lincoln - Birmingham could be restored very easily by moving the Lincoln - Nottingham service to XC. Services have move franchises before and probably will be again.

A lot of simple changes could make a big difference. I know it would be nice to have direct Skegness - Lincoln but we also know demand isn't there, good connections would be a nice alternative.

 

[Kneedown]

a lot of time is wasted slowing down to 20mph due to farm crossings.

10mph at Tinsleys and in the up direction at that x'ing just south of Sleaford Sth- the name escapes me.

The current line speed is 50mph

60mph Werrington - Spalding, 55mph Spalding - Lincoln.

Lincoln - Birmingham could be restored very easily by moving the Lincoln - Nottingham service to XC. Services have move franchises before and probably will be again.

A lot of simple changes could make a big difference. I know it would be nice to have direct Skegness - Lincoln but we also know demand isn't there, good connections would be a nice alternative.

Is there any more demand for a direct Lincoln - Brum service than there is for a direct Skegness - Lincoln service? You can't reshuffle a whole thing just to please a minority. Hey, i think there should be a direct Hucknall - Rhosneigr service! That'd save me a three hour drive every time i went to visit the in laws! - Potential open access operators take note!

 

[Failed Unit]

10mph at Tinsleys and in the up direction at that x'ing just south of Sleaford Sth- the name escapes me.



60mph Werrington - Spalding, 55mph Spalding - Lincoln.

Thanks, so 75mph after the upgrade should make the service quick enough to do hourly clockface with just 3 units. You could do it now BUT the turnarounds would be a little tight

Is there any more demand for a direct Lincoln - Brum service than there is for a direct Skegness - Lincoln service? You can't reshuffle a whole thing just to please a minority. !

But that is exactly what DaFT did when they split up CT. They chopped the direct Lincoln - Birmingham service which did have a demand and replaced them with a service to local stations between Liecester and Loughborough with no demand. CT even said that it was an improvement as Syston now has a direct service to Lincoln! When the trains did run direct a lot of people stayed on a Nottingham, very few do now. Newark - Birmingham generates a lot of demand as well, but I guess Lincoln - Boston might. The only real option here would be to have bi-hourly Lincoln - Skeg / Lincoln - Peterborough. Spalding - Lincoln's demand however could be a lot bigger if the service ran for longer! (I know one shift etc)

Timetable changes has killed of the demand for both routes as they are both a royal pain in the backside by rail.

 

[tbtc]

When the Lincoln - Birmingham service used to run, wasn't it via Leicester (so still slower than the "Derby" service between Nottingham and Birmingham)?

Sadly the only way I can see the Nottingham - Lincoln line getting extended services to places like Birmingham would be if the Newark junction is sorted out - they seem paranoid about late running Sprinters causing delays for the bigger "more important" ECML trains (not saying that is how *I* see it, of course)

 

[gordonthemoron]

yes, build the bloody flyover

 

[tbtc]

yes, build the bloody flyover

It'd help with ECML paths too - WIN/WIN

 

[Failed Unit]

When the Lincoln - Birmingham service used to run, wasn't it via Leicester (so still slower than the "Derby" service between Nottingham and Birmingham)?

Sadly the only way I can see the Nottingham - Lincoln line getting extended services to places like Birmingham would be if the Newark junction is sorted out - they seem paranoid about late running Sprinters causing delays for the bigger "more important" ECML trains (not saying that is how *I* see it, of course)

Both routes used to be used, but it was mainly via Liecester just before it was axed altogether. You could leave Birmingham 10 minutes later and get a train via Derby BUT no-one would risk missing the connection at Nottingham by doing so.

The Newark crossing is interesting, as if the Sprinter was late it has to wait for the next gap. If the IC service is late the sprinter also waits (which is sensible for a change as you are not going to stop a 125mph service for a sprinter to cross infront of it, even if it is late). Putting a late running sprinter ahead of a 125mph service on a 2 track route however is a different matter.

 

[ashworth]

Going right back to the mid 1970's, when I was at college in Derby, the service used to be hourly Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Crewe. I used to regularly use it to/from Lowdham to Derby.
As far as I remember this hourly Lincoln-Crewe service formed the main service between Nottingham and Derby as in those days there were very few (only at peak times) through services from Nottingham to Birmingham. For most of the day the only services from Derby to Birmingham were NW-SW and South Coast services most of which called at Burton and Tamworth. To get from Nottingham to Birmingham you had to change at Derby or Leicester.

I agree that a through Lincoln to Birmingham service needs restoring, but even a service from Lincoln to Derby would provide better onward connections than at Nottingham or even worse Leicester. If the Lincoln to Crewe service from the 1970s was restored this would also restore much needed through services from Nottingham to Crewe for connections to the WCML for the North West and Glasgow.

 

[networkrail1]

The Newark crossing is interesting, as if the Sprinter was late it has to wait for the next gap. If the IC service is late the sprinter also waits (which is sensible for a change as you are not going to stop a 125mph service for a sprinter to cross infront of it, even if it is late). Putting a late running sprinter ahead of a 125mph service on a 2 track route however is a different matter.

Just wanted to put you right as many staff i have spoken to do not know this. The NOT - LCN line has priority over the ECML. We have often held a ECML service at D81 to let a NOT -LCN service cross infront of it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just wanted to put you right as many staff i have spoken to do not know this. The NOT - LCN line has priority over the ECML. We have often held a ECML service at D81 to let a NOT -LCN service cross infront of it.

You learn something new every day, the amount of times I have sat infront of that smelly sewage work watching ECML trains go ahead, maybe we were just early on the working timetable.

It is a bit odd that a branchline has priority over a mainline.

I know the Geography of the area would make it extremely difficult (for those that don't know the are the Trent and a number of watercourses are very close to the site). I wish that Newark was simular to Retford and Tamworth so we could have one station with a high low level. When the railway opened the companies were competing and now I don't think the cost would ever be justified.

 

[tbtc]

I wish that Newark was simular to Retford and Tamworth so we could have one station with a high low level

I know it can't and won't happen, but it would be fantastic if that were possible - a half hourly (or better) Nottingham - Newark - Lincoln service meeting a half hourly Kings Cross - Newark ECML service - it'd give Nottinghamshire a much better range of journeys/ connections
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the Lincoln to Crewe service from the 1970s was restored this would also restore much needed through services from Nottingham to Crewe for connections to the WCML for the North West and Glasgow

I suppose the proposal to replace the East Coast service between Edinburgh Waverley Glasgow Central and replace it with a similar Cross Country service would at least mean Derby/ Sheffield etc would have a reasonable level of service to Glasgow (albeit slower).

Nottingham to Manchester/ Liverpool is already direct. Nottingham to Preston/ Lancaster/ Carlisle can be done by changing at Manchester Picadilly or Leeds. I take your point through

 

[ashworth]

I know it can't and won't happen, but it would be fantastic if that were possible - a half hourly (or better) Nottingham - Newark - Lincoln service meeting a half hourly Kings Cross - Newark ECML service - it'd give Nottinghamshire a much better range of journeys/ connections
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I suppose the proposal to replace the East Coast service between Edinburgh Waverley Glasgow Central and replace it with a similar Cross Country service would at least mean Derby/ Sheffield etc would have a reasonable level of service to Glasgow (albeit slower).

Nottingham to Manchester/ Liverpool is already direct. Nottingham to Preston/ Lancaster/ Carlisle can be done by changing at Manchester Picadilly or Leeds. I take your point through

I also know it won't happen but one station at Newark with an hourly fast Nottingham-Newark-Lincoln service would not only improve connections from Lincoln but could also prove very busy and popular with passengers from Nottingham travelling north. I'm sure a connection at Newark for the north would be much more regularly used than the current connection at Grantham and easier than changing at Derby or Sheffield for station up the ECML.


The problem with making journeys so inconvenient from Nottingham via Crewe, and forcing people to change at Manchester, is that it puts more people onto the already overcrowded Norwich-Liverpool service and makes the busy through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly even more crowded.
At present travelling from Glasgow, Carlisle, Preston etc to Nottingham via Crewe, not only means an additional change at Derby, but also southbound the connection time is so tight at Crewe that these journeys are difficult to get to show up on the online sites to book AP tickets.