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The US mid term elections 2022.

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Strathclyder

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Arizona's governership race has been called for the Democrats (Arizona's Sec. of State Katie Hobbs being the candidate in question), meaning yet another MAGA election denier (Kari Lake) has been defeated. What was that about 'being tired of winning' again? Seems to have slipped my mind...
 
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kermit

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Arizona's governership race has been called for the Democrats (Arizona's Sec. of State Katie Hobbs being the candidate in question), meaning yet another MAGA election denier (Kari Lake) has been defeated. What was that about 'being tired of winning' again? Seems to have slipped my mind...
And with tiresome predictability, Ms Lake has tweeted that the result is "BS". I wonder if she would have expressed any concern if she had been declared the winner??
 

nlogax

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And with tiresome predictability, Ms Lake has tweeted that the result is "BS". I wonder if she would have expressed any concern if she had been declared the winner??

Indirectly for sure. 'Arizonans know BS when they see it'. Strikes me as the most she felt she was able to say as these midterms have well and truly rained on the parades of election deniers up and down the country. Feels a little like a turning point, one which further cements Trump as a has-been even if he does announce he's running for president again.
 

Strathclyder

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And with tiresome predictability, Ms Lake has tweeted that the result is "BS".
A required hallmark of a MAGA-moron. I'd be honestly be more surprised if she conceded defeat, but then if she dared to contradict him, the cheeto-dusted windsock would throw an all-caps fit at the wall of his Soylent Twitter.

Indirectly for sure. 'Arizonans know BS when they see it'. Strikes me as the most she felt she was able to say as these midterms have well and truly rained on the parades of election deniers up and down the country.
Yeah, they know it alright, and they voted to keep it out of the governership. Rather fitting that this is the same state that the late Senator John McCain represented, one of the lame duck's most vocal and consistent Republican critics while the former was still with us.

Feels a little like a turning point, one which further cements Trump as a has-been even if he does announce he's running for president again.
Am personally gonna wait and see what happens with respect to this being a turning before making any assumptions/assertions. What is rather entertaining to watch play out though is the GOP flail, flounder and descend into back-biting, sniping etc, in their vain search to find something, anything or anyone, to blame other than their themselves. A good portion of them actually think it's squarely rests on the shoulders of you-know-who (which is the only other vaild, direct reason), in what is the one spasm of political cognizance I thought they were simply incapable of having. Remains to be seen how long that lasts.
 

jfollows

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I don't understand why anyone would vote for a candidate who participates in an election process but is only willing to accept the result of the process if he/she wins the election. It was bad enough when Hillary Clinton delayed conceding defeat to Donald Trump back in 2016 but now vast numbers of (mainly) Republicans seem to think it's acceptable to deny their loss and blame some kind of incorrect process.
But, amazingly, millions of people do vote for these people.
I agree that it seems like we might be getting the first signs of a real turning point against Donald Trump and the creed which he has inspired (although perhaps inherited and amplified from the "Tea Party" Republicans) and that Republicans are starting to say - coherently - that they need to stand for something rather than spend their time raging against the system.
However there have been many false starts in the hope against Donald Trump since 2016 and while he remains alive there is still plenty of scope for his attempted perversion of the process to continue.
 

ainsworth74

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It was bad enough when Hillary Clinton delayed conceding defeat to Donald Trump back in 2016 but now vast numbers of (mainly) Republicans seem to think it's acceptable to deny their loss and blame some kind of incorrect process
I was under the impression she made the call in the small hours of election night to the Trump campaign to concede and made a public statement the following morning?
 

MikeWM

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I do think it is reasonable to be able to ask questions about these things, given the widely-reported problems in the polling stations in Arizona on election day, and the fact that the person that has won the election was the person that was in charge of running the election. If that happened in another country and a candidate won that the US wasn't keen on, they'd be the first to be calling into question the fairness of that election.

'Election denier' appears to me to be just another 'shut up and go away and stop asking awkward questions or we'll call you a nasty name' label, just like 'Covid denier' was. Especially given that no such label is given to those who spent years questioning the 2016 election, even getting parts of the federal government involved in investigations (investigations that went precisely nowhere).

The way to solve having 'election deniers' is to fix the voting processes.
 

nlogax

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The way to solve having 'election deniers' is to fix the voting processes.

What would you suggest to 'fix the voting process'? What needs fixing?

Those that sought to deny the results of the 2020 presidential election were for the most part conspiracy theorists and/or members of a personality cult. At last count 63 lawsuits lost by Trump and his bandwagon of local GOP representation. These decisions were handed down judges elected by Democrats and Republicans.

There will always be local voting issues that need to be addressed but do they exist on a scale that would swing a result? Hardly. I would advise reading 'Lost Not Stolen -
The Conservative Case that Trump Lost and Biden Won the 2020 Presidential Election' published over the summer. If anyone still clings on to misinformation and the belief that elections in the US have been stolen then I'd urge them to read this and think again.

Lost Not Stolen PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aqorZ61AYFqZU-EDQBBzjqfvAoC5nKcB/view
 

DC1989

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I certainly think they need to do something to count quicker. The count going on for days afterwards allows time for a narrative to be drawn (hence 'stop the count' etc)

The main reason that the Brazilian election results have not been questioned by Bolsonaro to the same extent is that full results were announced mere hours after polling closed. If it went on for days where Bolsonaro was ahead and Lula was slowly catching up, something similar would have occurred there

Saying that I know this is handled at state level and that GOP controlled states aren't interested in fixing this, quite the opposite I think
 

MikeWM

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What would you suggest to 'fix the voting process'? What needs fixing?

For a trivial example - it is now almost a full week since the election and we still don't know who will have a majority in the House, with some districts in California still only having counted less than 50% of the vote. I don't see how anyone can think that is acceptable.
 

ainsworth74

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Saying that I know this is handled at state level and that GOP controlled states aren't interested in fixing this, quite the opposite I think
I'm not sure it's actually a partisan issue as such more that some states are just incompetent and their voters don't appear to be willing to elect people who will fix it (assuming there is anyone standing on such a platform of course!). Florida for instance has had a Republican governor and Republican State Legislature since the 90s and they, after the farcical 2000 Presidential election, have excellent elections that delivery the preliminary results basically on the night (the formal verification comes a few weeks later but changes to the result seem very unlikely so it's a simple formality). Meanwhile in California which has had a Democratic State Legislature since the 90s and Democratic Governor since 2011 is still counting.

I don't doubt that there are some actors within the GOP who are happy with their current utter cluster proverbial that some states make of their counts but it isn't a Red State issues. It's a Red and Blue State issue.
 

nlogax

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I certainly think they need to do something to count quicker.

I don't know how you fix massive amounts of people wanting to vote in an election other than force each state throw money at the problem. Meanwhile there continues to be a trend of Republican figures pushing to make it harder for people to vote by post, forcing an 'on the day' drop-off of ballots - which would slow counts even further.

It bears repeating that slow counts don't have an effect on the outcome.
 

ainsworth74

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I don't know how you fix massive amounts of people wanting to vote in an election other than force each state throw money at the problem.
If that's what it takes. It's crackers that we're a week on and we still don't know who controls the House of Representatives. Again if a state like Florida can manage to get it's initial results out within a day then it should be possible for the others to manage the same. By all means take a bit more time before final verification to cross the t's and dot the i's (which is what Florida is doing, I think final results are due in a few days but there's no expectation that they'll change) but not being able to say with near 99% certainty within 24 hours of the close of the polls "these are the winners" is crackers.
Meanwhile there continues to be a trend of Republican figures pushing to make it harder for people to vote by post, forcing an 'on the day' drop-off of ballots - which would slow counts even further.
On this, however, I agree wholeheartedly. In some places you have to queue for hours to vote. Hours. The fact that these are often in urban, black and Democrat leaning areas rather than rural, white, Republican leaning areas is I'm sure is a coincidence...

It bears repeating that slow counts don't have an effect on the outcome.
That isn't in dispute, at least by me, as it's clear that the 2020 election was free and fair despite being utterly messy. It still isn't great that we can be a week on from the election and still not know who has won a the House of Representatives and probably won't know for some time yet.
 

Busaholic

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Arizona's governership race has been called for the Democrats (Arizona's Sec. of State Katie Hobbs being the candidate in question), meaning yet another MAGA election denier (Kari Lake) has been defeated. What was that about 'being tired of winning' again? Seems to have slipped my mind...
It also should (but, obviously, won't) quieten those who say that all those 'late counted' votes mysteriously go to the Democrats: Kari Lake's deficit in votes was declining as more ballots were added in, such that she was 'winning' nearer 60% of the new ones, but, given they knew the maximum number of potentially outstanding votes, it was calculated that even if she'd maintained that momentum she would ultimately lose. Given Fox's belated realisation that Trump might just be a busted blush, I hope she doesn't return to their employment.
 

Cloud Strife

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On this, however, I agree wholeheartedly. In some places you have to queue for hours to vote. Hours. The fact that these are often in urban, black and Democrat leaning areas rather than rural, white, Republican leaning areas is I'm sure is a coincidence...

In Georgia, it's even prohibited to give water to someone standing within 150 feet of a polling station!

Interestingly, New York State appears to have actually had a mini Red wave of their own. Had this wave not emerged there, the Democrats would likely have retained the house, which is quite surreal.

Ridiculously, one congressional district in California is reporting that they only have one counting machine. I mean, how does this work?
 
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nlogax

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That isn't in dispute, at least by me, as it's clear that the 2020 election was free and fair despite being utterly messy. It still isn't great that we can be a week on from the election and still not know who has won a the House of Representatives and probably won't know for some time yet.

Can't speak for other states but Arizona has always been particularly difficult to count in a timely fashion. Few factors going on there this time.
  • Voters are very thinly spread across rural communities outside of metropolitan Phoenix / Scottsdale and Tucson. It's painfully slow to count them at the best of times. When there are legal challenges to certain rural counties asking for hand counts because certain politicians don't trust machines it doesn't help..
  • Ironically the focus on voting in AZ has exacerbated the problem..
    • Nearly every vote needs to be counted to make a definitive declaration as races are now so close, and bipartisan teams are present checking for signatures and ballot problems
    • Recent advice to GOP supporters about voting on the day meant about 300,000 ballots being dumped into the system on the morning of Nov 8th as opposed to weeks earlier as used to be the norm.
  • Florida actually uses some technology to speed the opening of ballot envelopes, lasers, vacuums etc. AZ uses those 'finger' things. Pretty retro stuff to rely on when you have the eyes of the country on you!
Money needs spending there for sure. Maybe this election will finally be the one that forces the issue?
 

Busaholic

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Money needs spending there for sure. Maybe this election will finally be the one that forces the issue?
If your mantra is 'small state' then the last thing you want is public money spent to ensure the public get the result the majority want!
 

brad465

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As I've highlighted before, one of the major factors slowing down the counting is different states have different rules for counting and how outcomes are determined. When it comes to federal elections the rules should be the same nationwide because they're nationwide elections; states can still have their own rules regarding state only elections, including electing State Governors.
 

Busaholic

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Anyone think Trump is going to announce the formation of his own political party in six hours time?
 

MP33

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I worked at a place where someone had a framed certificate on the wall as they had attended the first public meeting of the SDP and joined that night to receive a certificate signed by David Owen Bill Rodgers Shirley Williams and Roy Jenkins.

Perhaps Trump if starting his own party could do that to raise money.
 

jfollows

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Anyone think Trump is going to announce the formation of his own political party in six hours time?
Only if his aim is to ensure that no Republican candidate (other than him, such as DeSantis) could win at the next election by splitting the vote, ensuring a Democrat win.
 

brad465

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Anyone think Trump is going to announce the formation of his own political party in six hours time?
Whatever he says, I'm looking forward to it a lot more than when he first announced he'd be making this announcement given how badly he's being received now with the GOP.
 

Busaholic

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Only if his aim is to ensure that no Republican candidate (other than him, such as DeSantis) could win at the next election by splitting the vote, ensuring a Democrat win.
That could be something he'd be quite sanguine about.
 

Strathclyder

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It would appear the big announcement probably wasn't quite what he had in mind....nice to learn however.

Murdoch has never really liked Trump personally and his disastrous showing in the midterms has given the former the convenient excuse needed to cast the latter aside. Only took him 4 election cycles to do it...

Whether or not all the ghouls in the opinion host line-up at Fox 'News' actually get this memo remains to be seen. Most likely not; can't see the likes of Carlson, Pierro & Hannity abandoning their dear leader just yet...

I don't understand why anyone would vote for a candidate who participates in an election process but is only willing to accept the result of the process if he/she wins the election. It was bad enough when Hillary Clinton delayed conceding defeat to Donald Trump back in 2016
I was under the impression she made the call in the small hours of election night to the Trump campaign to concede and made a public statement the following morning?
Indeed, @ainsworth74: Clinton conceded through the night over the phone (before Trump reached the required 270 electoral college votes, it should be noted) when it became clear which way things were going, with an official statement being released the following morning. Whatever you may think of her, she at least didn't do what her opponent did when he found himself in her position 4 years later.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I don't understand why anyone would vote for a candidate who participates in an election process but is only willing to accept the result of the process if he/she wins the election. It was bad enough when Hillary Clinton delayed conceding defeat to Donald Trump back in 2016 but now vast numbers of (mainly) Republicans seem to think it's acceptable to deny their loss and blame some kind of incorrect process.

Clearly, only accepting the result if your side wins is appalling behaviour. But as to why people would vote for a candidate who does that? Well, let's suppose it was the other way round, and it was the Republicans who were respecting the electoral process and the Democrats who kept crying foul and telling lies about the elections whenever they lost. And imagine you're somewhat left-wing.

So your choice in this hypothetical situation comes down to... A Republican who opposes any action to combat climate change, wants to ban all abortion, opposes all gun control, and wants to do loads of other things you find appalling, but who respects the democratic process. OR A Democrat who will do exactly what you think is needed for the country, with the one exception that he/she keeps trying to undermine elections whenever he/she loses.

Who are you going to vote for in that situation? Difficult choice, isn't it! But if you reverse the politics, that is the kind of choice faced by someone in the US who has strong right-wing views and also respects democracy and is appalled by Trump's election lies.

Maybe that makes it understandable why some people might be horrified at Republican election denials, but choose to vote Republican anyway.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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