This is what gets the current rail system a bad name

[Huntergreed]

And this is where this will go round in circles. Because its bad customer service to also delay those on a train who are waiting - as cited with my example. A minimal delay to one person, can be a significant delay to another.

Holding a pendolino at a Carlisle for passengers travelling to Penrith who could catch the TPE 20 minutes behind and not really miss out on much whilst the train loses it's path on the south WCML and ends up late into Euston? I get your point.

But a branch line service with no running on the mainline, a 30 second delay is going to make absolutely no difference (and a good guard would have looked at (or memorised!) their timetable and have known that their was allowance built it in anyway, which just makes refusing to hold the service even more unjustifiable)

 

[yorkie]

Had a train which was held for a late running service to connect with a while back. Fair enough you may say as it was the last service of the day. But then some on my service missed their last connections at Leeds and had to get taxis home. Reality of the situation is there will always be two sides to the coin.

I'd like to see the exact details before commenting but in general the last trains should be held if at all practicable unless there is a very good reason not to. I feel confident discussing the issue in the original post because we know the times and details but I don't want to comment on something else without a similar level of detail. Would it be possible to provide it?

And this is where this will go round in circles. Because its bad customer service to also delay those on a train who are waiting - as cited with my example. A minimal delay to one person, can be a significant delay to another.

Going back to the original matter at hand, the passengers on the train had to wait as the train was held at a red signal for a couple of minutes in the suburbs of York for the platform to become available at York,. I do not see how that is any better than waiting a few more seconds at Seamer station.

Now if we are talking about other examples, let's here the details and a different conclusion may be reached.

 

[Horizon22]

I'd like to see the exact details before commenting but in general the last trains should be held if at all practicable unless there is a very good reason not to. I feel confident discussing the issue in the original post because we know the times and details but I don't want to comment on something else without a similar level of detail. Would it be possible to provide it?

Connections to last trains are, in my experience, always held. Even if that means a delay +5 minutes (especially if there's a lot of people). Obviously if someone arrives 30 minutes late for some reason, then they might not be able to wait, but an onward taxi is normally offered which is peanuts for the TOC normally in the grand scheme of things.

That is not to say this doesn't come with its own problems; it can potentially delay posessions and track maintenance, many of which run to a tight timetable themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And this is where this will go round in circles. Because its bad customer service to also delay those on a train who are waiting - as cited with my example. A minimal delay to one person, can be a significant delay to another.

With increased use of Advances and other tickets bought (and most often used) against itineraries, it is not hard to find an IT solution to making the right decision, and even automatically ordering taxis if needed and emailing passengers about what is to happen.

 

[SuperNova]

Holding a pendolino at a Carlisle for passengers travelling to Penrith who could catch the TPE 20 minutes behind and not really miss out on much whilst the train loses it's path on the south WCML and ends up late into Euston? I get your point.

But a branch line service with no running on the mainline, a 30 second delay is going to make absolutely no difference (and a good guard would have looked at (or memorised!) their timetable and have known that their was allowance built it in anyway, which just makes refusing to hold the service even more unjustifiable)

How do you know it was 30 seconds? You quite simply don't. You have to factor many other things such as boarding time, dispatching the services etc. What happens if that delay is a few minutes which then has consequences onto forward journeys. There has to be a cut off and that cut off has to be the timetable. If journey connections are too tight, then it should be up to local stakeholders to work with operators for realistic connections.

I'd like to see the exact details before commenting but in general the last trains should be held if at all practicable unless there is a very good reason not to. I feel confident discussing the issue in the original post because we know the times and details but I don't want to comment on something else without a similar level of detail. Would it be possible to provide it?

Amazingly, I don't keep a diary on something that happened last year. I do remember dealing with some, quite rightly, irate customers. It wasn't possible to hold their last service so taxis had to be arranged. But for one gentlemen who had travelled all evening home after working away, the prospect of a road journey that took twice as long, was rather unpalatable. Fact it, delays have consequences.

 

[trover]

In the case of an extra hour wait, can passengers leave the station to look for food even if their tickets don’t allow BoJ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of an extra hour wait, can passengers leave the station to look for food even if their tickets don’t allow BoJ?

BoJ of that kind is not enforced, if for no other reason than that at almost every station there are facilities outside the gateline.

 

[yorkie]

Amazingly, I don't keep a diary on something that happened last year. I do remember dealing with some, quite rightly, irate customers. It wasn't possible to hold their last service so taxis had to be arranged. But for one gentlemen who had travelled all evening home after working away, the prospect of a road journey that took twice as long, was rather unpalatable. Fact it, delays have consequences.

In that case we can't really draw any conclusions about that particular case.

But the case in question has the facts readily available; the train had a couple of minutes dwell at Malton (many trains manage much shorter dwell times at stations) and waited a couple of minutes outside York for a path/platform to become available, so what's your thought on that one: should connections like that be made, or not?

 

[SuperNova]

In that case we can't really draw any conclusions about that particular case.

But the case in question has the facts readily available; the train had a couple of minutes dwell at Malton (many trains manage much shorter dwell times at stations) and waited a couple of minutes outside York for a path/platform to become available, so what's your thought on that one: should connections like that be made, or not?

We can. Holding trains for some impacts others. You simply cannot dismiss that.

 

[yorkie]

Is anyone advocating that all connections should be held? The question was whether or not the train at Seamer should have been held or not; do you have a view on that?

 

[CapabilityB]

The reality is, the GB rail network isn't built around connections, the business cases for services are built primarily around direct connectivity, journey time and performance.

Even if our infrastructure allowed for a Swiss style service with hubs where national, regional, and local services all arrive at once to allow for interchange, the MOIRA and TAG models wouldn't allow that operation due to the massive financial value given to time, particularly on long distance services.

One of the things that really stood out for me when travelling on the Swiss railway was how the intercity services would sit for around 10 minutes at a number of hubs during the journey. No easy that would happen on GB intercity routes. (which doesn't include XC where long dwells are either for their own operations or down to the availability of paths in the timetable).

I'm not condoning the behaviour of train doors being shut in people's faces, but reflecting on the themes Aaron's what is driving the behaviour.

My own addition to what's giving the railway a bad name was seeing train staff coming off a train which was terminating (but turning round quickly) walking past a blind man tentatively walking up to their train. Would have taken 5 seconds to help him, but they just walked past as if it wasn't anything to do with them once they'd stepped off their train.

 

[mike57]

Bearing in mind that at Seamer there is nothing for waiting passengers other than uncomfortable seats to perch on in the two bus shelters, no toilets, no shops or other facilities outside the station, one solution to a missed connection would be to advise passengers to stay on the train to Scarborough and make their connection there. At least the hour's wait could be spent in relative comfort at Scarborough station.

Most of the guards already announce this if a connection has been missed at Seamer. In this case I assume the Northern guard had assumed the passengers would make the connection, as when he released the doors the TPE train doors were still open. The TPE guard managed to close the doors in the few seconds it took the passengers to get off.

Ordinarily, the xx35 Northern service towards Scarborough will have already called or still be in station at Seamer when the xx40 TPE train to York arrives.

If, however, the TPE gets a red signal at Seamer, and the Northern service hasn't yet already passed, it's likely that the Northern service is only a few minutes down coming off the Bridlington line and will be arriving at Seamer soon enough.

If it's delayed by more than a few minutes, however, the Northern service is likely to then be held on its approach to Seamer West Junction, and so if the route has then already been set for the TPE service, then and only then would it not be reasonable to maintain the connection.

As a regular user I can confirm that this is the case. If you are held at Seamer West then you can be sure you have missed the TPE connection.

Looking at this from a passenger perspective, wanting direct services from everywhere to everywhere is a reaction to the meltdown that occurs when connections are missed. Bring TOC specific tickets, advance tickets etc into the mix and people realise that the potential for a difficult journey is multiplied.

Whilst the issue of connections at individual junctions would have to be addressed on a case by case basis I think GBR should look at the following:

If you are delayed and miss your connection you can proceed on the next service to your destination irrespective of TOC or ticket type.

Perhaps connection failure percentage should be published for stations where there relatively few onward connections. Make it part the performance metrics. It might concentrate minds on sorting out some of the easier to sort problems.

Once TPE start running Scarborough services past York again expect service meltdown anyway as an earlier poster has alluded to.

Suggesting people leave Seamer station to look for facilities is really a non starter for people who dont know it. To get to Morrisons, Costa etc is about 1/2 a mile if you know the short cut and it involves a long flight of steps (30+) or another 400yds of walking to avoid them. The pub isnt visible from the station, although a bit nearer. Getting off the platform invoves using a passenger crossing over the eastbound track, protected with large metal gates which have to be opened by hand (but locked when a train is due) and are quite heavy if you are carrying luggage or infirm. (This is carryover from the days before the flyover and bypass were built, there was a level crossing on Cayton Low Road, the access road to the station was the main road). In terms of people using the station it tends to be people who live in the rural area south of Scarborough as well as the immediate area, as its easier access than Scarborough, and as a connection between the Yorkshire Coast line and York - Scarborough

 

[ComUtoR]

When you start with the premise that the Railway isn always wrong. You begin to understand why there is always conflict.

Trains cannot run early - unless permitted in the timetable or because it's blocking other services.

They cannot run on time - because passengers may be running late or services need to be held for other services.

And they can't run late - because people have paid for a service and need to make other connections on time or reach destinations on time.

If all you see is each of those in isolation, then all you see is conflict and deviciveness.

 

[yorkie]

When you start with the premise that the Railway isn always wrong. You begin to understand why there is always conflict.

When you start with the premise that the Railway is never wrong, you begin to understand why there is conflict.

Trains cannot run early - unless permitted in the timetable or because it's blocking other services.

They cannot run on time - because passengers may be running late or services need to be held for other services.

And they can't run late - because people have paid for a service and need to make other connections on time or reach destinations on time.

If all you see is each of those in isolation, then all you see is conflict and deviciveness.

So, after all that, was what happened at Seamer at 12:40 on Friday the right thing in your opinion?

 

[ComUtoR]

When you start with the premise that the Railway is never wrong, you begin to understand why there is conflict.

Nobody is claiming the railway is never wrong. Even internal staff know that isn't the case. But if people with opposing views only see apologists then maybe one side has fog clouding their perspective.

So, after all that, was what happened at Seamer at 12:40 on Friday the right thing in your opinion?

I wasn't there so I can't comment. Often what is reported only has a one sided view.

However if the trains cannot be early, late, or on-time. Then what can they be ? Magical ?

 

[yorkie]

Nobody is claiming the railway is never wrong. Even internal staff know that isn't the case. But if people with opposing views only see apologists then maybe one side has fog clouding their perspective.

Nobody is claiming the railway is always wrong.

I wasn't there so I can't comment. Often what is reported only has a one sided view.

The information is made available in this thread; what more information do you need?

However if the trains cannot be early, late, or on-time. Then what can they be ? Magical ?

We are here for a sensible debate.

To be clear, you have entered this debate, where all the information you could need about the situation that occured at Seamer is made available, and yet you claim to have no opinion on it, only criticisms and cryptic comments about magic.

If you have something constructive to say, please do say it...

 

[The Planner]

Taking a cursory look at RTT, I am presuming the performance time is there because 1E33 is coming out of York P4 at 1320, which allows for it to depart slightly late if 1F66 is in at 1325. Platform reoccupation is 3 minutes. 1E33 was late as well which, based on what can be seen, is why 1F66 didn't arrive earlier than it did. Bit of a bad show on the day and a minute or so in this case wouldn't have had things spiraling out of control, but you are always going to have the "how long can you wait" issues and its unlikely you could get a measured quick response from anyone on the day on that sort of decision.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...you are always going to have the "how long can you wait" issues and its unlikely you could get a measured quick response from anyone on the day on that sort of decision.

Wasn't really the case at Seamer on Friday. The signalling would of course have been held at red for the TPE train whilst the Northern service was crossing the points just in front of the TPE train, before moments later the Northern service comes into Seamer station and I doubt that the signals would have cleared for the TPE train before the two trains were stood alongside each other on the island platform. Dysfunctional railway priorities to not then allow the connection to be made.

Different kettle of fish if the TPE train for York has a green aspect at its booked departure time from Seamer and the Northern service hasn't passed and is still nowhere to be seen (either having been held at Seamer West Junction or maybe having not even got that far).

 

[zwk500]

Wasn't really the case at Seamer on Friday. The signalling would of course have been held at red for the TPE train whilst the Northern service was crossing the points just in front of the TPE train, before moments later the Northern service comes into Seamer station and I doubt that the signals would have cleared for the TPE train before the two trains were stood alongside each other on the island platform. Dysfunctional railway priorities to not then allow the connection to be made.

Different kettle of fish if the TPE train for York has a green aspect at its booked departure time from Seamer and the Northern service hasn't passed and is still nowhere to be seen (either having been held at Seamer West Junction or maybe having not even got that far).

BIB - the people who set the railway's targets (including right time at every station) are the Minister for Transport and his advisors. The railway then decides how best to achieve that goal.

If you write to your MP and persuade him to change the railway's targets such that 'Interchanges of 5mins will always be honoured' I suspect the railway would make different decisions. It'd also have a lot more delay propagating the length of the country, but then at least people at Seamer wouldn't be waiting for an hour.

 

[scrapy]

I'd like to think that "control" knew where trains were on the network...

That often depends on the type of signalling in use. I don't know how Seamer or its approaches from Bridlington is signalled but I would guess its absolute block as there seem to be no reports between Bridlington and Seamer on trust. This means control will know the train has left Bridlington but won't know where it is until it 'reports' again approaching Seamer. They won't know if it has made up time or lost time unless the crew has reason to contact them.

It should be noted that Northern crews have reported regular queues of 20 minutes or more on hold trying to contact control, particularly when there is disruption elsewhere on the network. If they lose signal they go to the back of the queue, so phoning to get a train held isn't always so easy.

From Google maps Seamer seems to be a fairly narrow island platform with waiting shelters in the middle. One of the waiting shelter contains a ticket machine filling the width of it which whilst not limiting the view the TPE guard has of their own platform from the back of the train, it would mean they wouldn't be able to see passengers alighting from the rear or middle of the Northern service in the opposite platform. Even if they had seen the passengers, they may have looked like they were just alighting and not making a connection. If the passengers were obviously to the guard making the connection, then unless exceptionally fraille would in the time it takes for the hustle alarm to sound and doors to close be well within the 'dispatch corridor' and it would be considered unsafe for a guard to continue to dispatch.

If this is the case rather than post on a forum the OP should contact TPE straight away to coming that they believe they have witnessed an unsafe act. TPE could then investigate the incident whilst CCTV is still available and decide whether or not their guard acted appropriately and safely.

 

[Horizon22]

That often depends on the type of signalling in use. I don't know how Seamer or its approaches from Bridlington is signalled but I would guess its absolute block as there seem to be no reports between Bridlington and Seamer on trust. This means control will know the train has left Bridlington but won't know where it is until it 'reports' again approaching Seamer. They won't know if it has made up time or lost time unless the crew has reason to contact them.

It should be noted that Northern crews have reported regular queues of 20 minutes or more on hold trying to contact control, particularly when there is disruption elsewhere on the network. If they lose signal they go to the back of the queue, so phoning to get a train held isn't always so easy.

Control are also not going to be looking at every bit of late running everywhere, and every physical connection possible, and Northern and TPE controls are different people, naturally. There's no way there would be the resource to do that even in normal operations, let alone if there's disruption some place.

The only way to ensure it is at least looked into, is for a guard to try and call saying "I've got a lot of people trying to make X connection, we're Y minutes late, can you do anything?". As you say they might not be able to get through in good time (dependent on how the TOC structures its control team), or the answer might be "no sorry", especially if it involves influencing another TOC. Or it might be able to be arranged, happy days.

With a two platform station you might think it was fairly obvious to the TPE guard what was likely to happen, but we cannot know at which point during the dispatch he saw the passengers (doors may already have been closing). I would hope a more conscientious guard might hold off for a bit - especially if based on their local knowledge Seamer is a known connection - but that comes down to the person on the day making a judgment call.

 

[Watershed]

If I end up getting up a new ticket or penalty fared as a result of the railway's own incompetency, and can't get it overturned, I'll no longer consider any rail travel where a connection into an operator-restricted ticket is needed.

The railway effectively presents you with a choice:

• Pay (usually) a lot of money to have a fully flexible ticket, where missing connections may cause somewhat of a delay, but not too much.
• Pay a lot less and, if you miss a connection, catch the next available service of the same company, which may cause unnecessary delays.

I agree that it's a rubbish choice, but that is what's on the table. No-one is forcing you to buy operator-restricted tickets.

And as @yorkie pointed out in the other thread, if you split at your changing point, you effectively get the best of both worlds:

If the customer's final destination was King's Cross and they did not want to accept a 4 hour delay, and if Lumo/LNER were not budging on that length of delay, the customer can:

• obtain a full refund on the unused ticket; and
• obtain a new Any Permitted ticket, to use on LNER

They are therefore still better off buying the cheap Lumo ticket, as in the worst case scenario they paid no more than what you are advocating and if the connection is made, they have a cheaper journey.

Platform reoccupation is 3 minutes

5 minutes at the Scarborough end, I think you'll find!

 

[mike57]

That often depends on the type of signalling in use. I don't know how Seamer or its approaches from Bridlington is signalled but I would guess its absolute block as there seem to be no reports between Bridlington and Seamer on trust. This means control will know the train has left Bridlington but won't know where it is until it 'reports' again approaching Seamer. They won't know if it has made up time or lost time unless the crew has reason to contact them.

It should be noted that Northern crews have reported regular queues of 20 minutes or more on hold trying to contact control, particularly when there is disruption elsewhere on the network. If they lose signal they go to the back of the queue, so phoning to get a train held isn't always so easy.

From Google maps Seamer seems to be a fairly narrow island platform with waiting shelters in the middle. One of the waiting shelter contains a ticket machine filling the width of it which whilst not limiting the view the TPE guard has of their own platform from the back of the train, it would mean they wouldn't be able to see passengers alighting from the rear or middle of the Northern service in the opposite platform. Even if they had seen the passengers, they may have looked like they were just alighting and not making a connection. If the passengers were obviously to the guard making the connection, then unless exceptionally fraille would in the time it takes for the hustle alarm to sound and doors to close be well within the 'dispatch corridor' and it would be considered unsafe for a guard to continue to dispatch.

If this is the case rather than post on a forum the OP should contact TPE straight away to coming that they believe they have witnessed an unsafe act. TPE could then investigate the incident whilst CCTV is still available and decide whether or not their guard acted appropriately and safely.

I was in the front carriage of the Northern service, I was going to Scarborough, TPE service was a 68 hauled 5 carriage set with engine at the west end. Guard was almost opposite my window, passengers alighted from behind me, but well within his field of view, it was in front of the shelter, and they were not frail, and they had small suitcases. I didnt regard it as unsafe, just downright nasty. He just looked straight through them. He had probably started closing the doors as our doors opened. The door he was working from was still open and he could have waved them in through that door. He may have had/be having a bad day, but he is still customer facing.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As an aside, is a ticket needing the connection, say from Filey (or Bridlington) to Malton, also valid for interchange at Scarborough (and not just at Seamer?)

 

[billio]

Most of the guards already announce this if a connection has been missed at Seamer. In this case I assume the Northern guard had assumed the passengers would make the connection, as when he released the doors the TPE train doors were still open. The TPE guard managed to close the doors in the few seconds it took the passengers to get off.
....

In my case the TPE connection to York was cancelled. By the time we had got off the train and read the information screen the Hull - Scarborough train had left for Scarborough. That particular day, due to subsequent cancellations, it would have been quicker to travel to York through Hull. We caught the bus.
(For other reasons I do think the Northern guards on the Hull service are very helpful.)

As an aside, is a ticket needing the connection, say from Filey (or Bridlington) to Malton, also valid for interchange at Scarborough (and not just at Seamer?)

From York off-peak and anytime day returns are the same price whether you book to Seamer or Scarborough so possibly it doesn't matter.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As an aside, is a ticket needing the connection, say from Filey (or Bridlington) to Malton, also valid for interchange at Scarborough (and not just at Seamer?)

From York off-peak and anytime day returns are the same price whether you book to Seamer or Scarborough so possibly it doesn't matter.

That's as may be, but it's possibly an answer to a different question to the one that I asked upthread.

 

[Watershed]

As an aside, is a ticket needing the connection, say from Filey (or Bridlington) to Malton, also valid for interchange at Scarborough (and not just at Seamer?)

Yes, provided you take direct trains between Filey and Scarborough, and Scarborough and Malton. It's a 'local journey' under the Routeing Guide, so you can take a direct train to and from the common Routeing Point (Scarborough).

 

[MattRat]

Interesting how they seem to give off the presence of wanting to keep the trains on time, and yet the trains are often not on time.....

 

[43066]

but that comes down to the person on the day making a judgment call.

The trouble with that of course is that it will lead to inconsistent results. You really do have to have one black and white policy, which in almost all circumstances, is to be as on time as possible.

Interesting how they seem to give off the presence of wanting to keep the trains on time, and yet the trains are often not on time.....

No, they often aren’t on time, for various reasons. What is certain is that, if trains are held for connections, they will be on time even less.

Nobody wants trains to run late, it’s inconvenient for everyone concerned and extremely expensive for TOCs. To suggest otherwise is completely baseless.

 

[GoneSouth]

Can't speak for their employer but at mine if I am over my time by 30 or more seconds I have to justify that, and holding for transferring passengers won't be accepted. My personal feelings aside I do what I'm told by the person signing my wages off!

Wow what clowns are running your company. So It’s not acceptable to hold for 1 minute for passengers (yes, the reason you are there in the first place) rather than leave them behind in the dark, rain, uncomfortable surroundings because some tool in charge likes a power trip. I feel for you working for such a bunch of idiots.