Those Caught With Fraudulent, Altered Railcards

[Statto]

Setting up a new thread, as feel it's for a wider discussion.

Their has been a couple of threads recently including this one caught using a forged railcard

Forged railcard - Am I likely to be able to settle out of court? RESOLVED

I have been caught using a railcard that had a photo of myself screenshotted over but a different name to me. I was travelling on cross country trains. When asked to show the railcard, the ticket inspector asked to see it in the Trainline app which I could not as it is not mine. I panicked and...

www.railforums.co.uk

Plus another one a few months ago using an altered railcard & on more than one occasion, & again after being caught first time.

Those caught are lucky they haven't been charged with more serious crime of fraud, rather than traveling without a ticket.

Got me thinking, those caught with altered, fraudulent railcards, should face more serious criminal charges, rather than what they have been charged with?

 

[MrJeeves]

It's an interesting point, to be honest.

In reality, yes, they probably should be convicted more harshly than someone making a mistake or a lapse in judgment as they are purposefully creating a fake entitlement to a rail discount.

The question is whether it is worth the TOCs' time to pursue such a case. The government say that "the average costs of a private prosecution are around £8,500."(source) Evidently, TOCs and those they outsource investigations to have this whittled down significantly due to most convictions being a simple strict liability case, and performing the same prosecutions day-in day-out.

Fraud, I'm sure, has a higher bar of evidence than a simple RoRA/byelaws conviction, hence is more time-consuming and costly. Meanwhile, if they can extra a few hundred pounds from someone for a couple of hours (or less with a copy-paste letter) of work, it works out in their favour to do that.

We've seen cases where people get made examples of, and I have a feeling it's only a matter of time until this happens to someone with regards to falsifying railcards or e-tickets.

I think we've seen a spike in these because, at least from my experience, guards and RPIs are now beginning to scan aztec barcodes on railcards, too. I first had this on a North Downs (Gatwick to Reading) service with GWR, and mentioned that I'd never had that done before. The lovely gentleman explained that they've been asked to start scanning railcards as they've found some people are using edited railcards, and they can check whether a railcard is valid (e.g., expiry date modified) as well as see some basic info about the person (name and -- I assume -- the picture too?) on their own machines through the barcode.

To me, the biggest thing is the lengths people try to go to to avoid paying £30 (for most railcards) or even £70 for 3-year versions. Even less during promos with various retailers. It flabbergasts me that people think it's worth faking railcards and ending up with a conviction or large out of court settlement for the sake of a small sum of money in the long-term.

 

[miklcct]

To me, the biggest thing is the lengths people try to go to to avoid paying £30 (for most railcards) or even £70 for 3-year versions. Even less during promos with various retailers. It flabbergasts me that people think it's worth faking railcards and ending up with a conviction or large out of court settlement for the sake of a small sum of money in the long-term.

Not everyone is qualified for an appropriate Railcard, and with an appropriate Railcard, thousands of pounds can be saved every year, so there is clearly an incentive for people to fake it.

 

[skyhigh]

There's no point needlessly criminalising people with serious convictions such as fraud over a simple offence like changing the expiry date on a Railcard. If it's a much more major offence then it can be referred to the police who can look to investigate for fraud offences.

Anyone who's serious about claiming a discount they're not entitled to would get themselves a genuine Railcard. It's easy to get any type you want whatever age you are from the Railcard website if you know how...

 

[Krokodil]

Not everyone is qualified for an appropriate Railcard, and with an appropriate Railcard, thousands of pounds can be saved every year, so there is clearly an incentive for people to fake it.

I recently saw RPIs confiscate a number of 16-25 photocards (part of the two-part booking office issued ones) that were being used by someone other than the owner (it seemed that they'd been passing them between each other according to who was travelling that day). All eligible for their own, yet apparently the £30 saving was worth it.

There's no point needlessly criminalising people with serious convictions such as fraud over a simple offence like changing the expiry date on a Railcard.

It's often more than altering the expiry date, it's changing the name and photo too.

Anyone who's serious about claiming a discount they're not entitled to would get themselves a genuine Railcard. It's easy to get any type you want whatever age you are from the Railcard website if you know how...

Yes, RPIs recently intercepted someone using a 16-17 Saver (original, not a screenshot) who looked more like 26. While being questioned he carelessly dropped the one-stop ticket he used to enter through ticket barriers on the Merseyrail Loop. Busted. Eventually they got the genuine name and address.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Anyone who's serious about claiming a discount they're not entitled to would get themselves a genuine Railcard. It's easy to get any type you want whatever age you are from the Railcard website if you know how...

I feel like that could be legally risky, not sure by what, but I feel like it's probably not good.
I guess this is just the next level of a 16 year old using a child ticket, a 18 year old with a 16-17 saver.

 

[MrJeeves]

I feel like that could be legally risky, not sure by what, but I feel like it's probably not good.
I guess this is just the next level of a 16 year old using a child ticket, a 18 year old with a 16-17 saver.

Fraud by misrepresentation, potentially?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think people have to be realistic about what the law is going to actually do with someone who has committed a fraud offence worth £30.

 

[MrJeeves]

I think people have to be realistic about what the law is going to actually do with someone who has committed a fraud offence worth £30.

Depends how much they've avoided paying in fares, too, of course.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think people have to be realistic about what the law is going to actually do with someone who has committed a fraud offence worth £30.

(in context of a 16-17 saver)
£30 + the entire cost of tickets bought with it, which could easily add up to a lot over a year.

 

[fandroid]

Most offenders simply believe they won't be caught. The deterrent effect of more serious charges like one of fraud is probably minimal. They blithely assume that they will be able to talk their way out of it or just pay the full fare that they've avoided.

As we often see on this sub-forum, those who are actually caught are often petrified by the idea of any threat of court proceedings.

Most Railcards requiring photo id are checked in routine on-board ticket inspections and if these are now being scanned, that will soon root out most of these forgery problems.

The bigger problem is the absence of ticket checks on some routes. I imagine that those routes get known and large numbers of invalid Railcard discounts are claimed on them, whether backed up by a forgery or not.

 

[The exile]

There's no point needlessly criminalising people with serious convictions such as fraud over a simple offence like changing the expiry date on a Railcard. If it's a much more major offence then it can be referred to the police who can look to investigate for fraud offences.

Anyone who's serious about claiming a discount they're not entitled to would get themselves a genuine Railcard. It's easy to get any type you want whatever age you are from the Railcard website if you know how...

Fraud is fraud - there can be no question of genuine error in the case of an altered railcard. Hit them as hard as possible.

 

[Statto]

I think people have to be realistic about what the law is going to actually do with someone who has committed a fraud offence worth £30.

It'll be more than £30 though, as they brought railcard discounted tickets with that altered railcard.

Altering a railcard then using the altered railcard to buy railcard discounted tickets they would not otherwise be entitled to, shows clear intent to defraud the railway

 

[AlterEgo]

It'll be more than £30 though, as they brought railcard discounted tickets with that altered railcard.

Altering a railcard then using the altered railcard to buy railcard discounted tickets they would not otherwise be entitled to, shows clear intent to defraud the railway

If they’re otherwise entitled to the discount then the fraud is £30.

There is almost no prospect of the train companies expending that much time and legal resource to secure a Fraud Act conviction when the Bylaws and RORA do just fine. Chiltern and TfL agree; see the fairly egregious cases in this forum which are dispensed with, often in TfL’s case, with mere bylaw prosecutions.

 

[crablab]

(in context of a 16-17 saver)
£30 + the entire cost of tickets bought with it, which could easily add up to a lot over a year.

I think it would depend on whether they would have been entitled to the Railcard in the first place.
If they obtained a discount they could never be entitled to (ie. 16-17 but they are 26) this would carry more weight.

But I'm not personally persuaded by the railway's apparent argument that if not in possession of a valid Railcard when using the discount, but being eligible for the Railcard if paid for, that one is still liable for all the journey's made without that Railcard using Anytime Singles. My personal view is that the maximum one could ever hope to recover via the civil courts in that case would be the actual loss to the railway - which is the £30 Railcard that wasn't paid for.

 

[yorksrob]

Not everyone is qualified for an appropriate Railcard, and with an appropriate Railcard, thousands of pounds can be saved every year, so there is clearly an incentive for people to fake it.

That is actually a good point.

Providing a National railcard or Bahncard will remove a lot of the incentive for this type of fraud.

 

[fandroid]

That is actually a good point.

Providing a National railcard or Bahncard will remove a lot of the incentive for this type of fraud.

I agree. It's almost as if they just love the multiplicity of Railcards that have grown up over the years. The list when I tap the "add Railcard" button on a ticket website is just crazily long. It's become a cottage industry within RDG.

The German Bahncard system just boils it down to a few choices - 25%, 50% and 100% discounts with the price of the card purchase being adjusted for the various groups who qualify. And it's national, and it applies at all times!

 

[kristiang85]

That is actually a good point.

Providing a National railcard or Bahncard will remove a lot of the incentive for this type of fraud.

Yes, it is quite mindboggling how many railcards are out there, and a national railcard could simplify it massively.

At the moment my wife and I have three railcards between us: I have an annual gold card, she has a network rail card, and we both have a two together for when we travel outside of those zones together. And even with all those we can't get discounts on most of the longer distance solo journeys we do.

But you can see the temptation of someone in the same position who, hypothetically, might have an event booked with their partner travelling on the two together. The partner then gets ill so a friend goes instead who has a 20-30 Railcard, but it would be invalid on the two together ticket, so they decide mock up a screenshot of the two together with the friend's picture to not lose money on the ticket... that strictly would be fraud of course, but you can see why the passenger might think it's a justifiable crime.

But if most regular rail users had a standard discount card that could be used everywhere, then it would resolve a lot of these problems.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. It's almost as if they just love the multiplicity of Railcards that have grown up over the years. The list when I tap the "add Railcard" button on a ticket website is just crazily long. It's become a cottage industry within RDG.

The German Bahncard system just boils it down to a few choices - 25%, 50% and 100% discounts with the price of the card purchase being adjusted for the various groups who qualify. And it's national, and it applies at all times!

Yes, it is quite mindboggling how many railcards are out there, and a national railcard could simplify it massively.

At the moment my wife and I have three railcards between us: I have an annual gold card, she has a network rail card, and we both have a two together for when we travel outside of those zones together. And even with all those we can't get discounts on most of the longer distance solo journeys we do.

But you can see the temptation of someone in the same position who, hypothetically, might have an event booked with their partner travelling on the two together. The partner then gets ill so a friend goes instead who has a 20-30 Railcard, but it would be invalid on the two together ticket, so they decide mock up a screenshot of the two together with the friend's picture to not lose money on the ticket... that strictly would be fraud of course, but you can see why the passenger might think it's a justifiable crime.

But if most regular rail users had a standard discount card that could be used everywhere, then it would resolve a lot of these problems.

Same here. I have a Dales Railcard and Network railcard and these don't cover most of the journeys I make.

Oh for a sensibly run railway system.

 

[AlterEgo]

That is actually a good point.

Providing a National railcard or Bahncard will remove a lot of the incentive for this type of fraud.

How many cases have we seen here where people have been completely unentitled to the railcard, and just faked one anyway? I can't say I recall seeing any at all.

 

[JonathanH]

But if most regular rail users had a standard discount card that could be used everywhere, then it would resolve a lot of these problems.

...and the railway would completely cannibalise its revenue, while at the same time having increasing issues with overcrowding on popular services.

I'm not sure a universal railcard solves the problem of fraudulent railcard use anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

How many cases have we seen here where people have been completely unentitled to the railcard, and just faked one anyway? I can't say I recall seeing any at all.

Just because it hasn't turned up on here doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

...and the railway would completely cannibalise its revenue, while at the same time having increasing issues with overcrowding on popular services.

I'm not sure a universal railcard solves the problem of fraudulent railcard use anyway.

And yet competently run countries seem to manage it.

We just get the same old BS churned out by an Establishment of motorists (and helicopterists).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Same here. I have a Dales Railcard and Network railcard and these don't cover most of the journeys I make.

Oh for a sensibly run railway system.

My 16-17 saver covers all the journeys I make, it's going to be annoying losing it later this year and having to replace it with a much weaker 16-25.

 

[island]

I think people have to be realistic about what the law is going to actually do with someone who has committed a fraud offence worth £30.

"The law" is going to treat them in the way Parliament has instructed it to, and in line with the Sentencing Act 2020 that instruction places this fraud at category 5B, which on conviction is a range from a level B fine (1 week's wages) to community service to to 26 weeks prison.

You can read more about this by googling "magistrates court sentencing guidelines".

However...

There is almost no prospect of the train companies expending that much time and legal resource to secure a Fraud Act conviction when the Bylaws and RORA do just fine. Chiltern and TfL agree; see the fairly egregious cases in this forum which are dispensed with, often in TfL’s case, with mere bylaw prosecutions.

This is quite accurate.

 

[Titfield]

Just because it hasn't turned up on here doesn't mean it doesn't happen.



And yet competently run countries seem to manage it.

We just get the same old BS churned out by an Establishment of motorists (and helicopterists).

Absolutely. How is it that other countries can manage such things without the world caving in on their heads as those in power here would suggest. I am all in favour of having a DB style railcard system ie anyone can buy one and there are three graduations of discount.

I will now trott out what so many say ad nauseum - they do want us to use public transport so why not!

 

[AlterEgo]

Just because it hasn't turned up on here doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

What makes you think it is happening then?

 

[yorksrob]

What makes you think it is happening then?

We've seen many cases where people press the child ticket button when they're not entitled to it. It would be inconceivable for no one to try something similar with the railcard button

 

[AlterEgo]

We've seen many cases where people press the child ticket button when they're not entitled to it. It would be inconceivable for no one to try something similar with the railcard button

We know people get discounted tickets without a railcard and come a cropper when they haven't one to show, but that isn't what we are talking about here.

We are discussing fraudulent, forged railcards.

 

[yorksrob]

We are discussing fraudulent, forged railcards.

Well, if there are forged railcards out there, our crazy fares system (and lack of opportunities to legitimately obtain one) will certainly have encouraged them.

 

[Snow1964]

The question is whether it is worth the TOCs' time to pursue such a case. The government say that "the average costs of a private prosecution are around £8,500."(source) Evidently, TOCs and those they outsource investigations to have this whittled down significantly due to most convictions being a simple strict liability case, and performing the same prosecutions day-in day-out.

I suppose they have the cheap option of the arbitrary £100 or £150 administrative fee, and there is nothing to say can't choose different amount eg £250 as example as part of optional settlement offer

But there is an inconsistency, if get wrong ticket charged the full expensive fare, but how many are charged the expensive £70 railcard option as part of the settlement.