Hi I need some help please. My son was travelling from Leeds to Nottingham and bought a ticket via train line. He forgot to activate it prior to boarding and the guard said this meant he didn’t have a valid ticket despite having proof of purchase. He’s received a FPN and just wondering whether he can/should appeal. It may be a costly mistake but seems very unfair...
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Ticket bought but not activated on Trainline
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ForTheLoveOf
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Mobile app-based tickets are indeed invalid if they aren't activated. Among a number of other reasons, this is why I would not generally recommend using such tickets for rail travel on this island (on the continent it's less complicated and more ubiquitous).
If the train operating company has sufficient evidence of the circumstances of the occurrence, including your son's name and address, then it would be an even costlier mistake not to pay this amount to avoid the matter going to Court, as train companies do regularly prosecute all sorts of cases, including buying a ticket but not properly using it and showing it (by not activating it).
Quite aside from any criminal conviction (which may have to be declared for various clearances or visa waivers), the fine upon conviction, in addition to the train company's costs and the victim surcharge, is likely to add up to substantially more than whatever the FPN is for.
Is it fair? Not in my opinion, though I can see the logic (a non-activated ticket could be used as a season ticket until detected, or the journey could be made and the ticket then refunded). It is nevertheless how the system works.
If you have some reason to believe that the FPN is not correctly issued then you could appeal it. But in a straightforward case such as this, it is difficult to imagine circumstances in which an appeal would succeed in quashing the FPN and preventing the matter from proceeding to Court. The only grounds I could see would be if the app used failed to properly explain the requirement to activate the ticket before boarding. When I have previously used such mobile app tickets, this requirement has been clearly communicated.
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many thanks for this, appreciated. The app’s smaller print does make it clear re activation.
A Penalty Fare Notice? Who issued this?
Or was it an Unpaid Fare Notice for the fare due?
How much is the amount requested?
I don't think some train companies aim to be fair, but I do not think a discussion on fairness will be helpful to you.
thejuggler
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I hope he's buying fee free tickets through Trainline. If he is being charged a booking fee, other free sites are available.
No. He has no grounds for an appeal. Tickets must activated prior to boarding.
WelshBluebird
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Pedant alert - but that isn't always the case. I believe it is the case for tickets bought from the Trainline and from ATW, but not from GWR for example. Tbh the whole thing, just as with smartcards, is a total and utter mess. There should be an industry standard that applies across all ToC's for this.
But are they m-Tickets or e-Tickets?
WelshBluebird
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For GWR - functionally they are m-Tickets (in that you can only show them via the GWR smartphone app), but GWR call them either mobile tickets or e-Tickets. Just to make it even clearer for passengers!
Are these for Advance ticket types only or Anytime / Off-Peak? If the latter then surely they are leaving themselves open to 'activate on sight' (as compares to 'pay when challenged')?
WelshBluebird
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Both.
The tickets are currently only available when one of the stations is barriered, and the T&C's disallow break of journey regardless of ticket type (though if that is enforceable is another matter, as I am not 100% sure if you are actually warned of that before purchase) so I guess GWR's view is that you should be passing through a barrier during your journey anyway so it doesn't really matter.
As a point of clarification, does this notice actually state the precise term 'Fixed Penalty Notice'
Though if it's the destination station that's barriered you could still end short - could be 'useful' with the return portion of a period ticket.
323235
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Northern by Arriva usually call them Failure to Pay Notices.
He didn’t receive a Failure to Pay notice at any time, just the Fixed Penalty Notice a month or so later.
So (and I’ve asked the question before) why on earth would anyone opt use these tickets? What benefit to the passenger is there? It just like it seems there are more loopholes you can fall foul of, more to go wrong (phone dying etc), and no discernible benefit over a paper ticket.
ForTheLoveOf
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The only benefit I can see is that it can be quicker and easier than a paper ticket in certain limited circumstances. For example, I once needed to make a trip at very short notice - literally the time it takes to get to the station. So I bought the ticket on my phone on my way to the station, instead of faffing around with cards or cash, queues, hard-to-use ticket machines, slow booking office clerks etc. and missing my train.
I use the trainline app. When I download an open ticket, and tap on the “info” symbol next to the Activate Ticket button, the guide on how to use the ticket appears. It says that tickets must be activated on the day of travel. No mention of before boarding, after boarding or anything else. Is there somewhere else that it says it must be activated before boarding?
CentralTrainer
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Llanigraham
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But, as usual, the problem is that people don't bother to read the T & C's or the FAQ's and presume that everything will be OK.
Ignorance is no defence.
Ignorance is no defence.
Update: he’s paid the FPN. As an additional point if he had passed through an automated barrier on his journey then the ticket would have been activated automatically without any action. He’s traveling again today... despite what has happened he has bought a fee free ticket online in advance with a significant discount...he’s activated it! As a 22 year old the ease and immediacy if the e-ticket still wins... phones running out of charge is rare in his circle of friends, the equivalent of losing your wallet. I’m 50 so think differently but this is the future.
I thought that only the Police, or the Crown Prosecution Service, could issue Fixed Penalty Notices?
Train companies can issue Penalty Fares in some circumstances. Northern don't make the proper information available anywhere about which routes are or are not included in their Penalty Fare scheme (unlike all other train companies). Leeds is, probably, a Penalty Fares station though. If the journey began there, one could possibly be issued under these circumstances.
The guard on the train would be very unlikely to do anything other than sell a new ticket. Was this not how the conversation went? Was a new ticket bought? Was the existing ticket activated?
Train Companies might also issue an Unpaid Fares Notice for the fare due.
The train company might also ask you to pay them some sort of charge to avoid the case proceeding to prosecution. This may be called something like a failure to pay notice, or simply be an invoice.
You don't appear to have told us who issued tho notice or where though, unless I've missed something. So I'm afraid I'm not sure how helpful we can be.
Train companies can issue Penalty Fares in some circumstances. Northern don't make the proper information available anywhere about which routes are or are not included in their Penalty Fare scheme (unlike all other train companies). Leeds is, probably, a Penalty Fares station though. If the journey began there, one could possibly be issued under these circumstances.
The guard on the train would be very unlikely to do anything other than sell a new ticket. Was this not how the conversation went? Was a new ticket bought? Was the existing ticket activated?
Train Companies might also issue an Unpaid Fares Notice for the fare due.
The train company might also ask you to pay them some sort of charge to avoid the case proceeding to prosecution. This may be called something like a failure to pay notice, or simply be an invoice.
You don't appear to have told us who issued tho notice or where though, unless I've missed something. So I'm afraid I'm not sure how helpful we can be.
It was a fixed penalty notice issued through Arriva/Northern Trains as explained earlier. I’ve found all of the advice useful and paying it seemed the most sensible option in this case. Cheers
This makes very little sense. The guard would be very very unlikely to be able to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice. I do not see what basis they have for charging £85. If it's a Penalty Fare it's wrong because the price is wrong. But it sounds like something that has been made up.
Did they accuse him of breaking a Railway Byelaw?
Did they accuse him of breaking a Railway Byelaw?
The guard didn’t. He took my son’s details as he did not have a valid ticket (as it had not been activated). The request for payment arrived in the post about a month later... my son activated the ticket on the train but should have done it before traveling according to the T&Cs. Which he acknowledges he hadn’t read. Not made up unfortunately.
Well if they don't think you broke a Byelaw then I can't see any basis for them charging anything except the normal fare.
In order to even record a customer's name and address they must be suspected of breaking a Byelaw. In my view that means a specific named one too, not just a general case of breaking rules.
In order to even record a customer's name and address they must be suspected of breaking a Byelaw. In my view that means a specific named one too, not just a general case of breaking rules.
The T&Cs make it clear that if you don't activate the ticket before travel, it's not valid. In my interpretation, that means byelaw 18 has been breached. I don't see where you're trying to go with this and how it's of any help to the OP?Byelaw 18 said:
The OP has been asked to clarify what the document said. They've declined several times to do so.
They have eventually clarified that they was no establishment of any Byelaw offence onboard the train.
If the incident were handled by the guard, the only likely outcomes would be them charging the fare or completion of an Unpaid Fares Notice. Again, the OP has declined to clarify.
The OP also says that their son would have been OK if they'd passed through ticket gates, but does not say how he passed through the gates at Leeds.
It's the OP's prerogative not to provide any further information if they wish, but in this case it's unlikely anyone can offer further help and advice.
They have eventually clarified that they was no establishment of any Byelaw offence onboard the train.
If the incident were handled by the guard, the only likely outcomes would be them charging the fare or completion of an Unpaid Fares Notice. Again, the OP has declined to clarify.
The OP also says that their son would have been OK if they'd passed through ticket gates, but does not say how he passed through the gates at Leeds.
It's the OP's prerogative not to provide any further information if they wish, but in this case it's unlikely anyone can offer further help and advice.
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