Hi, hope someone can give me som peace of mind. So, for the last few months I have been purchasing a return train ticket to London from a station closer to London that when I actually get on. I purchase on my credit card at my station. This evening when I tried to go through the turnstiles at Marlybone the inspector looked at my ticket and said that they could see that my purchase station was not my return destination and said they could see what I was doing. She kept my ticket and said that she was going to submit it to their fraud department and I should expect a letter in the next few weeks. She never took any of my details and so only had my paper railcard. My question is, was this approach to scare me or can they actually identify me, my address and past transactions etc from a single ticket purchase with a credit card at a station ticket terminal?
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Ticket confiscated and told to expect a court date
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WesternLancer
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Not sure on your question - but what you need to know is that Chiltern Trains take the hardest line on fare evasion of all the national rail companies we see on this forum - with the most likely to prosecute. So whatever you do, evading fares of any sort in any way on Chiltern is a really bad idea.
Yeah I clearly regret my decision. My question is that the ticket inspector did not let me go through the turnstiles and get on the train, she didn’t take any details, just took my train ticket. Can the prosecute with only that if they don’t have any other details?
Brissle Girl
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If they have the ticket they can find out details of the owner of the credit card used to buy it surely? Though it would have been simpler just to get your details off you.
What did you do for a ticket for that journey, once the first one had been confiscated?
What did you do for a ticket for that journey, once the first one had been confiscated?
I bought the correct ticket from the terminal and then went through.
Can they access my personal data from linking my credit card to the ticket. Surely that can’t be, she never took any details at all!
ikcdab
Member
In your first post you mention "paper Railcard". Maybe that was a slip. If they have a Railcard then you are tracked easily. And obviously you can be tracked via your credit card company. It's easy to link the ticket back to the credit card used to buy it. But I am puzzled why she didn't just take your name and address.
If you have been defrauding them as much as you suggest, then I guess they might have other evidence, so I guess you need to wait to see what happens next.
If you have been defrauding them as much as you suggest, then I guess they might have other evidence, so I guess you need to wait to see what happens next.
Just for clarity, I bought a paper train ticket. I assume they could link the ticket to my credit card but will they be able to obtain my personal details from the credit card company?
Brissle Girl
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If it is required for the purposes of investigating crime (which this is) then I would imagine so.
ikcdab
Member
yes. Things like GDPR do not do not apply when a crime is being investigated. So yes, they can get your details from the credit card company.
So, I hadn’t even gone through the turnstiles so was not ‘caught’ on a fraudulent journey, merely said they could see that the return journey was not where I purchased the ticket from. Didn’t take any details, only the train ticket, sounds strange no?
Bertie the bus
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It does sound strange. It sounds like they know who you are, what you have been up to and it was targeted, especially when you say you have been purchasing tickets at your local station for journeys from a different station and they have been happy to sell them to you.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
It sounds like the opposite to me, that nothing will happen. If it was targeted then the OP would have had their details taken and an interview done under PACE.
OP: keep a low profile from now on.
I’m not so sure about this. For a card present transaction merchants do not have access to billing addresses as I understand. There is a chance a credit card company will give out the address to Chiltern, but I don’t think they are obliged to, given the lack of legal powers afforded to Chiltern. If they don’t give it out freely, which they may not, given the reputational damage doing something like that could cause, I’m not sure what further action Chiltern could reasonably take.
Can the OP also confirm what they said to the inspector, whether they were cautioned and what evidence was mentioned by them?
Certainly the idea that the tickets purchase station is different to the origin/destination is not proof of any type of fare evasion, only an indication, for which there are many reasonable excuses. That being said it is very possible the investigations department will find CCTV footage proving that fare evasion did take place.
The inspector did not caution me, simply asked some questions around why I have different starting journey from purchase station, took my ticket and said that she was sending it to the fraud department and I should expect a letter in a few weeks
As I have been doing this 2 times a week for the last few months, is it possible that I have been flagged and is why my ticket was not accepted and having to go to the inspector to be let through the turnstiles?
Purchasing/collecting a ticket from a station other than that used to depart or end up at is not particularly unusual. The fact that no details were taken potentially is. There is a lot more going on here albeit what exactly is unclear.
I would imagine that Chiltern can get your name and address from the credit card used to purchase the seized ticket and can also identify all past ticket purchases made with that card.
That sounds highly likely.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
To which you replied....?
To be honest told some rubbish story which she didn’t believe
If you were not asked for your name and address then I think the chance of anything happening is close to 0%. What evidence do they have that the person who purchased the ticket is the person who travelled? I regularly purchase tickets on my credit card for members of my family. If the train company are considering prosecuting someone, they aren't going to make it more difficult for themselves by not asking the person who they are.
Why didn't they ask for your details? Who knows but their approach may well (hopefully) have worked and from now on you will always purchase the correct tickets and stop committing criminal offences.
You need to 100% buy the correct tickets in the future to prevent a similar situation happening again.
Why didn't they ask for your details? Who knows but their approach may well (hopefully) have worked and from now on you will always purchase the correct tickets and stop committing criminal offences.
You need to 100% buy the correct tickets in the future to prevent a similar situation happening again.
They wouldn't have set the ticket gates to refuse a paper ticket on the basis that it was you who purchased it! The gates aren't that clever.
They may have set them to refuse tickets to a certain close-by destination. Lots of people try exactly the same tricks (and don't appreciate that they aren't uniquely clever) so the railways know what to look for.
It would be a lot of work to track you down. I think it was just a warning, and one you should take notice of. The longer someone fare dodges, the greater the chances are of being caught, and the greater the pain in terms of courts and money.
Be grateful you weren't on the train when the inspector stopped you, and pay the fare in future.
They may have set them to refuse tickets to a certain close-by destination. Lots of people try exactly the same tricks (and don't appreciate that they aren't uniquely clever) so the railways know what to look for.
It would be a lot of work to track you down. I think it was just a warning, and one you should take notice of. The longer someone fare dodges, the greater the chances are of being caught, and the greater the pain in terms of courts and money.
Be grateful you weren't on the train when the inspector stopped you, and pay the fare in future.
I don't believe that a financial institution would release the name and address of a cardholder based merely on the say-so of a train company, that someone used that card to buy tickets and travel improperly.
What the train company can do, is see all purchases made using that card at their own machines and their own website. And if they had compared that information to CCTV from their stations, it's quite possible that they could have been lying in wait for specific people.
I struggle to understand why they didn't ask for the OP's name and address though, since there are plenty of reports of people using Wembley Stadium etc. tickets getting caught at Marylebone, including that bizzare thread with a voice recording from a ticket machine being maintained
What the train company can do, is see all purchases made using that card at their own machines and their own website. And if they had compared that information to CCTV from their stations, it's quite possible that they could have been lying in wait for specific people.
I struggle to understand why they didn't ask for the OP's name and address though, since there are plenty of reports of people using Wembley Stadium etc. tickets getting caught at Marylebone, including that bizzare thread with a voice recording from a ticket machine being maintained
Deafdoggie
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I think this most likely is the answer.
But had your details been taken, they can link all your purchases. Chiltern are one of the more pro-active TOCs in relation to prosecutions, you'd be wise to ensure you never come to their attention again.
Brissle Girl
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I would normally agree with you, but given that TOCs are in the unusual position of having powers to prosecute directly (same as the Post Office, but let’s not go down the rights or wrongs of whether either should have that right), I do wonder whether that changes the position.
ikcdab
Member
I believe that details can be released to a "competent authority" which would include a rail company. But the word is "may", not "must".
I just checked Barclaycard privacy policy and they say they will share details to prevent fraud.
I suppose if the only train currently boarding is non-stop to a point beyond the validity of a ticket, that is pretty reasonable grounds for suspicion even without further evidence.
Although the wording very much makes it sound like they are referring to releasing details to the police. As I understand it many companies will even make the police get a warrant, unless there is an obvious and immediate need for the details. This is because if they did release the details wrongly they would be in a fair amount of trouble. I would be extremely surprised if they release customer details to a train company without a legal document forcing them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect if the ticket was bought at a TVM and not via Trainline etc and collected the railway will put this in the "too hard" pile and nothing will come of it - it's theoretically possible to get details that way but it's an almighty faff compared to getting them from Trainline. Very surprised name and address weren't taken, perhaps the inspector thought it was bought online and collected so they'd get the info from there and by the time the OP had gone away it was too late.
HOWEVER the OP really needs to stop doing this now, as next time they may not be so lucky.
If a letter is received of course post here and we can advise accordingly.
HOWEVER the OP really needs to stop doing this now, as next time they may not be so lucky.
If a letter is received of course post here and we can advise accordingly.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
The TOCs do not have special powers; they bring private prosecutions in the normal way, the same as any private company or individual. The Post Office also does not have "special powers" either.
They could of course involve BTP.....