Ticket dispute regarding Horsforth to Leeds journey: your thoughts on the legalities?

[SashaHannah]

Hi,

This thread is becasue I am interested in the legality of penalty fares (and full price fares in unpaid fare notices) and I have included my story too so you can see my reasoning. But also having lived abroad and travelled through Europe I can tell you my experience of their awesome their public transport puts ours to shame.

Basically the train companies are making a small fortune from passengers and causing them distress, financial hardship etc. The irony is they are not even investing it in our railways, see for yourself how it works https://youtu.be/gvagsSOlAy4. Now the government are coullding to make things worse (http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/taxpayer-to-pay-hundreds-of-millions-for-doo/)

I am disabled and due to meds and symports of disability I erronously got on a train without a ticket in 2013. I did not travel for 3 years as I was ill, then dealing with a divorce and complex custody battle. So in 2016 as a disabled passenger I wanted to get to Leeds on the fastest train possible in 2016 and found that Virgin East Coast was the fastest as well as it being a non-penalty train. The Conditions of Travel stated that as a disabled passenger I can buy at the destination so i thought great.

So why didn't I just buy a ticket at Horsforth? I was ill, tired and the ticket machine wasn't working. I'd spent ages trying to get the ticket so the non-penalty train arrived. I walked straight to the ticket office in Leeds but was subjected to a verbal attack from a woman who refused to show me any ID and made me fill out a form. I repeatedly asked then begged her to stop after trying to reason with her. It ended in me having a panic attack on the platform and I no longer use the train. In hindsight I would never have got on the train, I would have got on the bus. I have already complained to the train company, but they have not answered.

So what's my problem?
1) I don't feel that this behaviour is acceptable from a member of staff/revenue officer. Is this not verbal assault (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jun/16/verbal-abuse-law) ?
2) Are all penalties and unpaid fare notices (full price single fare) fraudulent and breach the Condition of Travel 2016 (breach of contract) (and contravene the 2002 SRA penalty rules and policy)?
* if there are no signs at the station I left from or arrived at e.g. "designated penalty station" or "compulsory ticket area", but there is a clear sign about trespassing. There is no map of these alleged "penalty stations" in paper or website format.
* if the passenger has travelled on a non-penalty train?
* if the passenger is disabled and could not access a ticket buying facilities?
3) Is it indirect discrimination if a disabled passenger travels based on the information provided only to find that at the destination the ticket revenue officer does not care or want to listen or take your story into account?

I'd appreciate your thoughts especially on the legalities above and anything that would help me take these issues further. Is it the next PPI and could we all be due a refund?

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am disabled and due to meds and symports of disability I erronously got on a train without a ticket in 2013. I did not travel for 3 years as I was ill, then dealing with a divorce and complex custody battle. So in 2016 as a disabled passenger I wanted to get to Leeds on the fastest train possible in 2016 and found that Virgin East Coast was the fastest as well as it being a non-penalty train. The Conditions of Travel stated that as a disabled passenger I can buy at the destination so i thought great.

So, you took the once-daily VTEC train from Horsforth to Leeds. Horsforth station has a ticket office which is open when this train calls (around 0753).

Why didn't you use the ticket office to buy a ticket?

The NRCoT clearly states that (abridged for relevance):

You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies:

(c) You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible.

What was not suitably accessible about Horsforth station's booking office, but was accessible about Leeds'?

What form were you made to fill out? Were you put under caution? Who did this? Were they Virgin staff, or staff from another company? Have you had to pay anything?

 

[ainsworth74]

2) Are all penalties and unpaid fare notices (full price single fare) fraudulent and breach the Condition of Travel 2016 (breach of contract) (and contravene the 2002 SRA penalty rules and policy)?
* if there are no signs at the station I left from or arrived at e.g. "designated penalty station" or "compulsory ticket area", but there is a clear sign about trespassing. There is no map of these alleged "penalty stations" in paper or website format.
* if the passenger has travelled on a non-penalty train?
* if the passenger is disabled and could not access a ticket buying facilities?

A Penalty Fare Scheme is bound by strict rules but an unpaid fares notice is just that, a notice that the fare has not been paid. It is, in effect, an invoice for the travel undertaken.

As for the charge of a full price single fare being a breach of contract I fear that you may be reading only the bits of the NRCoT that fit your argument as they quite clearly state:

9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked, we are permitted, in law, to take one of the following measures:

a) To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations; or

b) To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or

c) To report you for prosecution.

So the contract is quite clear that (unless a provision of 6.3 applies) if they decide to charge you for a ticket rather than report for prosecution or, in a relevant area, charge a penalty fare then you will be charged the full anytime single fare.

The discussion of Penalty Fares is erroneous as the contract has provisions for dealing with ticketless travel outside of Penalty Fare areas and the companies are allowed, by the contract, to either charge an anytime single or report for prosecution. If you fail to pay at the time there is then the option to invoice you for the travel undertaken via the unpaid fares notice system.

Equally assuming that the ticket office was open at Horsforth at the time you intended to travel I'm not sure the disability provision applies as the question would be why was Horsforth ticket office not suitably accessible?

 

[najaB]

2) Are all penalties and unpaid fare notices (full price single fare) fraudulent and breach the Condition of Travel 2016 (breach of contract) (and contravene the 2002 SRA penalty rules and policy)?

If you haven't received a Penalty Fare then the Penalty Fares Rules are irrelevant. So it comes down to the NRCoT.

 

[DaleCooper]

A few questions for the OP.

What is the relevance of the 2013 journey?

Why were you so keen to use a "non-penalty" train?

What was the nature of the "verbal assault"?

What form did you have to complete?

Is your disability obvious?

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Conditions of Travel stated that as a disabled passenger I can buy at the destination so i thought great.

So why didn't I just buy a ticket at Horsforth? I was ill, tired and the ticket machine wasn't working. I'd spent ages trying to get the ticket so the non-penalty train arrived. I walked straight to the ticket office in Leeds...

The NRCoT actually states you can travel without a ticket if:

'You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible.'

As you walked to the ticket office in Leeds, and Horsforth also has a ticket office your disability probably isn't covered. The NRCoT certainly doesn't say that you don't need to purchase a ticket at your origin if you are disabled.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The OP's case is that she believes that she doesn't have to buy ticket as shes disabled yet she tried to use the TVM gave up rather than seek help from nearby manned booking office and boarded train she was intending to catch as it was approaching.

I suspect this might be a simple case of turned up with little time to spare and jumped on first train that pulled in. The story does smack of trying to find an elaborate reason to get oneself off. The one and only VTEC service takes 13 minutes to Leeds the far more numerous Northern ones 16 its hardly a compelling reason to get it....... misquoting National Rail Terms , the phrase Non penalty fare train, the staff at Leeds were abusive to me...etc

 

[30907]

As Gareth Marston comments, the OPs story is one we read regularly, with variations, on here.

While she has been distressed, it isn't at all clear that she has been asked to pay anything or that she has had any communication from a TOC or agency.

I don't think she helps us understand the issues by her comments about privatisation, DOO, or the superiority of every other rail system to ours (however much some of us will agree).

 

[Agent_c]

Whilst I agree, from your account at least (I suspect there is another side to that story) that the attitude at the end station was wrong... I cannot see any reason why you did not buy a ticket at the ticket office before you boarded. I can't think of a disability that would allow you to use a TVM but not a ticket office except perhaps being mute - a long queue isn't a disability.

Penalty fares are entirely optional. If you buy a valid ticket for your whole journey before you board you will never have to pay one.

 

[swj99]

I cannot see any reason why you did not buy a ticket at the ticket office before you boarded.....

The OP has explained the reason why.

...........I am disabled...........The Conditions of Travel stated that as a disabled passenger I can buy at the destination so i thought great........I was ill, tired and the ticket machine wasn't working. I'd spent ages trying to get the ticket .....

 

[Agent_c]

The OP has explained the reason why.

No, they haven't, have you read the explanation you're quoting?

Ill and tired are not a reason to board a train without a ticket. neither is "I didn't feel like it".

Apparently they are able bodied enough to use a TVM. Why could this person seemingly attempt use a TVM, but not an open ticket office?

 

[jon0844]

If the ticket machine wasn't working then there's no problem. If there was another way to buy a ticket then it's a bit more of an issue given the rules don't seem to give automatic and undisputable permission to seek a 'non-penalty train' and pay at the end.

Whatever the outcome, the thing that doesn't sit right is the bit about the non-penalty train, as if there was perhaps no intention to buy before travel as a penalty couldn't be issued. I mean, if it was so clear you could buy on the train or at the destination, you could take ANY train.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There was an open ticket office. A ticket should've been bought before travel.

There may be a customer service issue (although none of us were there except the OP so it is difficult to say either way), but in terms of rules, they were applied correctly.

 

[dave87016]

Unless it has changed in the past few years or so I believe the VTEC timetables or a leaflet I read that holders of a Disabled persons railcard may pay on the train ( VTEC trains only ) and get the appropriate railcard discount ( no mention of unstaffed station and having to buy before you board if you have one does this still apply? P

 

[najaB]

... I read that holders of a Disabled persons railcard may pay on the train ( VTEC trains only ) and get the appropriate railcard discount...

This is the case with most (all?) TOCs - holders of disabled railcards may purchase on board (with discount) if they are *unable* to purchase before boarding due to lack of suitable facilities.

It is far from clear that this was the the case here.

 

[Mag_seven]

But also having lived abroad and travelled through Europe I can tell you my experience of their awesome their public transport puts ours to shame.

My experience of Europe is they operate a zero tolerance approach to ticketless travel which far more stringent than here.

 

[dave87016]

This is the case with most (all?) TOCs - holders of disabled railcards may purchase on board (with discount) if they are *unable* to purchase before boarding due to lack of suitable facilities.

It is far from clear that this was the the case here.

I'm aware thats probably not the case here. I was just curious as IIRC only VTEC leaflet or inside timetable stated that holders of DPR can purchase onboard with the discount ( no mention of having to buy at first opportunity ) like all other TOC's that state that if no TVM'S and booking office is shut they can buy discounted tickets on board or at the first possible opportunity

 

[Agent_c]

I'm aware thats probably not the case here. I was just curious as IIRC only VTEC leaflet or inside timetable stated that holders of DPR can purchase onboard with the discount ( no mention of having to buy at first opportunity ) like all other TOC's that state that if no TVM'S and booking office is shut they can buy discounted tickets on board or at the first possible opportunity

I was on the understanding that most, if not all TOCs operate that sort of system for Disabled passengers. Scotrail's site doesn't seem to offer an exception and neither does fGW's pamphlet, but ATW says "If you are unable to access our ticket retail facilities as a result of your disability"

 

[yorkie]

So, you took the once-daily VTEC train from Horsforth to Leeds. Horsforth station has a ticket office which is open when this train calls (around 0753).

Why didn't you use the ticket office to buy a ticket?

The NRCoT clearly states that (abridged for relevance):...?

VTEC's policy is to sell you the full range of fares on board this service including your Railcard discount.

However, as, the Guard did not get around to sell a ticket in the short journey time, Northern have applied their own policies to the journey undertaken on VTEC.

The law should change, as Northern are using a loophole to penalise a passenger who would not be penalised by VTEC.

 

[DaleCooper]

VTEC's policy is to sell you the full range of fares on board this service including your Railcard discount.

However, as, the Guard did not get around to sell a ticket in the short journey time, Northern have applied their own policies to the journey undertaken on VTEC.

The law should change, as Northern are using a loophole to penalise a passenger who would not be penalised by VTEC.

I didn't see any mention of a penalty.

 

[gray1404]

VTEC's policy is to sell you the full range of fares on board this service including your Railcard discount.

However, as, the Guard did not get around to sell a ticket in the short journey time, Northern have applied their own policies to the journey undertaken on VTEC.

The law should change, as Northern are using a loophole to penalise a passenger who would not be penalised by VTEC.

Perhaps VTEC should make it clear to Northern that if a passenger gets off a VTEC service without a ticket, they should simply be sold a ticket.

 

[swj99]

No, they haven't, have you read the explanation you're quoting?

Her explanation is in the first post in this thread, which obviously I have read. How do you imagine I managed to quote it the first time if I'd not read it ?

Anyway, here it is, quoted again for the avoidance of ambiguity.

.......in 2016 as a disabled passenger I wanted to get to Leeds on the fastest train possible in 2016 and found that Virgin East Coast was the fastest as well as it being a non-penalty train. The Conditions of Travel stated that as a disabled passenger I can buy at the destination so i thought great.

So why didn't I just buy a ticket at Horsforth? I was ill, tired and the ticket machine wasn't working. I'd spent ages trying to get the ticket so the non-penalty train arrived. I walked straight to the ticket office in Leeds but was subjected to a verbal attack from a woman who refused to show me any ID and made me fill out a form. I repeatedly asked then begged her to stop after trying to reason with her. It ended in me having a panic attack on the platform and I no longer use the train. In hindsight I would never have got on the train, I would have got on the bus. I have already complained to the train company, but they have not answered.

 

[dave87016]

VTEC's policy is to sell you the full range of fares on board this service including your Railcard discount.

However, as, the Guard did not get around to sell a ticket in the short journey time, Northern have applied their own policies to the journey undertaken on VTEC.

The law should change, as Northern are using a loophole to penalise a passenger who would not be penalised by VTEC.

Thanks Yorkie that is the point I was making but you put it so much better ,other TOCS DONT allow holdrers of DSB railcards to buy discounted ticket at destination if you board at a station with ticket purchasing facilities yet VTEC DO seem to say that if you hold a DSB railcard then you are free to board there service and purchase discounted ticket on board regardless of wether or not there was an opportunity to purchase a ticket at the station before boarding

As you say Northern could exploit that loophole which IMO is wrong

 

[philthetube]

The post does not say the op is a holder of a disabler rail card. As it was their first journey for 3 years and there is more involved in getting a disabled railcard than other types I would be surprised if they did.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The post does not say the op is a holder of a disabler rail card. As it was their first journey for 3 years and there is more involved in getting a disabled railcard than other types I would be surprised if they did.

Thanks for spotting Phil - again she misquotes National Carriage Conditions to try and plead her case.

 

[jon0844]

The post does not say the op is a holder of a disabler rail card. As it was their first journey for 3 years and there is more involved in getting a disabled railcard than other types I would be surprised if they did.

That's a point.

 

[dave87016]

The post does not say the op is a holder of a disabler rail card. As it was their first journey for 3 years and there is more involved in getting a disabled railcard than other types I would be surprised if they did.

I thought it was a possibility that the OP may have I had one and was on a VTEC service and also I was just enquiring in general

 

[Agent_c]

Her explanation is in the first post in this thread, which obviously I have read. How do you imagine I managed to quote it the first time if I'd not read it ?

Anyway, here it is, quoted again for the avoidance of ambiguity.

You can repeat it as many times as you like. It still does not explain things because of the holes in the story I already pointed out. She spent a lot of a time at an allegedly faulty TVM that she spent a lot of time trying to make work, but couldn't use the counter, why again?

How does one spend a long time at a "faulty" TVM?

 

[arabianights]

I wanted to get to Leeds on the fastest train possible in 2016 and found that Virgin East Coast was the fastest as well as it being a non-penalty train.

Why was it important to be a 'non-penalty train'?

 

[AlterEgo]

Who knows? What we do know is that the previous time before the one mentioned in the OP she used the train, in 2013, she also managed to somehow fail to purchase a ticket.