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Ticket machines: Why has QWERTY been abandoned?

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In writing that sentence you must have pressed the shift button at least six times. You've also used the first letter of the alphabet and the second last letter. Whatever layout of keyword you had you could have easily used all your fingers.
But thanks to the qwerty layout, I will not have had many instances where i had to type letters immediately next to each other. Words are made up of syllables, and the letters needed for said syllables have largely remained the same for the past few centuries

If I want to book a train ticket from Northwich to Chester on the TPE website my sequence of presses would be

mouse click in browser address field.
tpe (enter)
mouse click in from station field
nwi (enter)
mouse click in to station field
ctr (enter)
then just mouse clicks until I get to the payment field. At which point I'd either need to login or enter my full name, address and card
having a different keyboard layout for each use case would obviously be impractical, so the layout is kept in what is most useful generally.

QWERTY keyboard fits in here.
It doesn't make sense to start varying the keyboard for the edge cases, stick with what people are used to rather than reinventing the wheel.
 
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ac6000cw

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I don't have a car, so wouldn't be walking from a car park to the station.
...then while walking or travelling on a bus to the station, drinking tea/coffee before setting off from home or the evening before/earlier in the day etc.

I only moved to using e-Tickets (whenever possible) about a year ago, a little while after I'd bought my first digital version of the Senior Railcard, but I wouldn't go back to buying paper tickets from a TVM now unless unavoidable.
 

Dr Hoo

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It doesn't make sense to start varying the keyboard for the edge cases, stick with what people are used to rather than reinventing the wheel.
You seem to have missed my point, which it that most people have far more 'bespoke' interactions with a wide range of user interfaces than they do with the (increasingly rare) task of using a TVM. I wouldn't personally have recommended doing away with QWERTY if it was already in use but no doubt there's a reason somewhere. It seems like an utter non issue for the overwhelming proportion of people compared to, say, getting a new microwave or a job at a new retail outlet.
 

infobleep

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...then while walking or travelling on a bus to the station, drinking tea/coffee before setting off from home or the evening before/earlier in the day etc.

I only moved to using e-Tickets (whenever possible) about a year ago, a little while after I'd bought my first digital version of the Senior Railcard, but I wouldn't go back to buying paper tickets from a TVM now unless unavoidable.
Or simply do it faster once you reach the TMV.

I do occasionally buy walk up tickets the night before but usually when I'm passing through the station and there is a risk because what if the journey doesn't happen the next day.....

I happily use eTickets for advance purchase journeys, for example if I was going to Manchester but for walk up tickets I find a TMV faster, so I use that.

I do accept if one has 5 split walk up tickets, eTickets would be faster but I rarely have walk up split tickets. It is usually station A to station B.

If the TMV machine could create an eTicket and transfer it to my phone, I might be OK with that but they don't.
 

Zamracene749

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with a touch screen - you have to look for each key and also to check each one has registered (see above re unreliability of touchscreens).
Off topic, but touch screens are a nightmare. Benign essential tremor, Parkinsons etc. No consideration whatsoever is given to sufferers of these diseases (myself included). Another reason I hate TVMs, also unmanned gateline barriers. Inserting tickets or even holding a phone QR code can be incredibly difficult. Please, just bring back real people or allow us to buy onboard!
 

randyrippley

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Imagine if you were a Briton in France or some other foreign speaking place.
Would you prefer an ABC keyboard or an AZERTY one? Or a Scandinavian one with absent keys?
ABC is cross compatible, Qwerty isn't
 

trei2k

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I hold SNCF's TVMs as some of the best out there and even with the AZERTY keyboard layout, I find that I am able to use this much quicker than ABCDEF format.
 

northwichcat

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having a different keyboard layout for each use case would obviously be impractical, so the layout is kept in what is most useful generally.

I wasn't arguing for that. I was saying if QWERTY hadn't been invented and we'd started off on computers what would have been the most ergonomic option.
 

birchesgreen

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Imagine if you were a Briton in France or some other foreign speaking place.
Would you prefer an ABC keyboard or an AZERTY one? Or a Scandinavian one with absent keys?
ABC is cross compatible, Qwerty isn't
What has that got to do with anything? What a bizarre thing to say.
 

randyrippley

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What has that got to do with anything? What a bizarre thing to say.
It's not bizarre.
It's not just British people who buy tickets in the UK. For someone familiar with AZERTY, Qwerty is an illogical culture shock. ABC isn't. Same applies in reverse to a QWERTY user in Europe
 

birchesgreen

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It's not bizarre.
It's not just British people who buy tickets in the UK. For someone familiar with AZERTY, Qwerty is an illogical culture shock. ABC isn't. Same applies in reverse to a QWERTY user in Europe
What percentage of non-British people buy train tickets from a TVM on any given day? I'd be surprised if its very high...
 
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It's not bizarre.
It's not just British people who buy tickets in the UK. For someone familiar with AZERTY, Qwerty is an illogical culture shock. ABC isn't. Same applies in reverse to a QWERTY user in Europe
Other than a few differences AZERTY isn't a horrible shock. More familiar than an ABC grid
 
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I wasn't arguing for that. I was saying if QWERTY hadn't been invented and we'd started off on computers what would have been the most ergonomic option.
Yours wasn't the most ergonomic option. It makes it easier to find if you are unfamiliar with the keyboard but doesn't try to space our commonly used letter pairs to make typing less awkward. Dvorak is supposed to be the best touch typing layout but it never really caught on because qwerty is good enough
 

Dr Hoo

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What percentage of non-British people buy train tickets from a TVM on any given day? I'd be surprised if its very high...
An even more interesting statistic would the number and proportion of passengers who actually still have to do any real 'alphabetic' typing at TVMs (as distinct from picking from a 'most popular' menu or putting in a collection code that happens to include a few alphabetic characters that don't form a familiar or intuitive 'word'). It seems to be an endangered pastime from my casual observations at places like Sheffield these days. The overwhelming proportion of travellers seem to have some form of e-ticket or other non-TVM travel document/pass.
 

Horizon22

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Much like when things like TV systems ask you to input things via ABCEDF format, it significantly slows things down.

Familiarity and ease of use help speed up processes, and this is just one of those areas where standardisation is just better.

As I regularly pick up TODs, this is always a faff.
 

infobleep

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Imagine if you were a Briton in France or some other foreign speaking place.
Would you prefer an ABC keyboard or an AZERTY one? Or a Scandinavian one with absent keys?
ABC is cross compatible, Qwerty isn't
I would like both the ABC version and the local one. Nothing like choice.

On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs. In fact a lot of Asian students study at the University of Surrey and the TMVs don't offer Chinese.

So if we must cater for foreigners with ABC, why not their local languages too?

I still favour QWERTY and ABC options though.

although admittedly, the RDG's guidelines recommend both). It is a matter of preference rather than poor TVM design.
There should he no preference but both as that is the standard. Why can't they be bothered to follow it? Or did the standard get designed after the TMVs were built?
It's not bizarre.
It's not just British people who buy tickets in the UK. For someone familiar with AZERTY, Qwerty is an illogical culture shock. ABC isn't. Same applies in reverse to a QWERTY user in Europe
Surely the TMV being in English would be more of a shock than QWERTY and what about people who don't write with a Latin script? It isn't just people using Latin scripts who use TMVs.
 

PyrahnaRanger

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That strikes me as absolutely negligible relative to the amount of software needed in a TVM and the amount of TVMs using the same software. Giving people an extra "button" to swap keyboards would cost virtually nothing.
Probably easy enough to do, but that is all that work is being done for the lowest price, probably in India or Vietnam. And the more stuff you build in, the more stuff that needs to be tested every time you change something, which adds costs

And stewardesses is the longest English word that can be typed with the left hand (in normal two handed typing)
Brilliant! I shall try and remember that.

She needed an IBM Model M keyboard, reputedly it can withstand a direct hit with a 1kT nuke and still work.
They’re great. Mine is still going, albeit through an unholy mess of adapters.

Nah. You just use a library for stuff like that, you don't write a keyboard function for every program, you just call the keyboard function from whatever library you're using.
Libraries? How uncouth! About half our devs are quite happy to add a library, the others would rather not. I’ve not identified any commonality in why, yet. (You can probably guess which half I fall into ;) )

My Sky TV is also ABC which is very slow when trying to type in a full film or programme name. Someone, somewhere has it in for QWERTY!
Now you mention it, my Amazon FireTV does searches like this, although I’m the only one to use the keyboard - the Mrs and all three of the kids use voice commands.

Other than a few differences AZERTY isn't a horrible shock. More familiar than an ABC grid
Not when you touch type and things just don’t go right! It’s not massive, but it’s enough to make you have to go back and correct it often enough!
 

Recessio

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The thing that tends to throw me is when they present an ABC keyboard but in a faux QWERTY layout (i.e. the letters are across three rows roughly the same size and shape as a QWERTY keyboard). If you're going to give me an ABC display please don't make it appear similar to a QWERTY layout as that just confuses the muscle memory of a lifetime.
You know, I'd not considered this but I think I now realise why an ABC layout on a TVM can really throw me out.
APTIS ticket machines in ticket offices which were introduced in 1986 were ABC, just saying.
And here I was about to blame privatisation fragmentation as for why we have a million different designs of TVMs with different keyboards, only to find out it was British Rail all along!

I wasn't arguing for that. I was saying if QWERTY hadn't been invented and we'd started off on computers what would have been the most ergonomic option.
Probably DVORAK or maybe Colemak.

But if we can't get TVMs displaying QWERTY then I doubt we're going to be getting any of those either time soon.
 
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The exile

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On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs. In fact a lot of Asian students study at the University of Surrey and the TMVs don't offer Chinese.

So if we must cater for foreigners with ABC, why not their local languages too?
To quote Germans: “We don’t see English as a foreign language any more. It’s an essential world communication tool”. I haven’t seen an HVV ticket machine for nearly 15 years, but while English was an option, I don’t remember Danish (the nearest foreign language) or Turkish (the most prevalent minority language) being offered.
 

Dave W

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The thing that tends to throw me is when they present an ABC keyboard but in a faux QWERTY layout (i.e. the letters are across three rows roughly the same size and shape as a QWERTY keyboard). If you're going to give me an ABC display please don't make it appear similar to a QWERTY layout as that just confuses the muscle memory of a lifetime. Otherwise as others have noted because you're not typing very much on a TVM display it doesn't really bother me.

Was just on my way to say this - I've no issue with an ABC setup as long as it is materially different to a keyboard layout, but there are some out there as you describe... When tired (okay, hungover) they present a significant challenge as you poke at the screen like a curious orangutan with synapses firing in all directions.

Otherwise I don't care and have a lot of sympathy with the idea that they're not designed to be typed on so providing the input differently is fine.
 

infobleep

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To quote Germans: “We don’t see English as a foreign language any more. It’s an essential world communication tool”. I haven’t seen an HVV ticket machine for nearly 15 years, but while English was an option, I don’t remember Danish (the nearest foreign language) or Turkish (the most prevalent minority language) being offered.
How about the remove the German then?
 

Meerkat

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I can touchtype quite well, but if I try to use one finger, or one from each hand, then I slow right down as muscle memory is replaced by needing to know where the keys are on the keyboard rather than where they are relative to the resting finger positions.
So if there is a keyboard to prod at, such as a TVM, then ABC is quicker.
The problem I have with TVMs is that accessibility legislation has made them less accessible to me (at 6'3"). My eyes arent behind my finger when prodding and added to the thick glass it means I tend to push too high up. At least they are not like ATMs where the wall is in my face and I have to contort to see the screen!
 

Old Yard Dog

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Its quite interesting that the Search facilities on BBC iPlayer, ITV Hub, All 4, My 5, UKTV Play and Freeview all seem to use different letter layouts, some much faster than others.
 

Deafdoggie

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TVMs are very expensive to maintain and are increasingly becoming redundant these days.
Apart from the people of Merseyside! Admittedly they have ticket offices, but Merseyrail might, eventually, bring their ticketing solutions right up to the 2000's :D
 

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