Ticket office closures and penalty fares

[Vespa]

If there is a long queue for the TVM, staff unable to assist as eitger too busy with other passengers/ in loo or worse broken down, passengers should be able to buy off peak, discounted fares on board the train even advances on board the trains without being charged full rate or issued with a penalty fare, just like a bus conductor on old buses.

So far I've not seen any proviso for such a scenario, if the TOCs starts issuing punitive fares rather than corrective fares, this will only drive away customers.

 

[dk1]

If there is a long queue for the TVM, staff unable to assist as eitger too busy with other passengers/ in loo or worse broken down, passengers should be able to buy off peak, discounted fares on board the train even advances on board the trains without being charged full rate or issued with a penalty fare, just like a bus conductor on old buses.

So far I've not seen any proviso for such a scenario, if the TOCs starts issuing punitive fares rather than corrective fares, this will only drive away customers.

Internal messages are sent out to revenue teams not to penalty fare in such circumstances. Also most conductors I work with sell off peak tickets onboard even if from a barriered station.

 

[hawk1911]

I normally purchase my tickets online, where possible, but yesterday I wanted to purchase a System One Bus/Train/Tram day ticket (which is unavailable online) at Stockport Station. However, the booking office was closed (staffing issues?) and the staff and machines were unable to issue that particular ticket.

Fortunately, I was given permission to travel to Manchester Piccadilly, where I was able to purchase my ticket. Nevertheless, that meant having to explain being without a ticket to both the train manager (Stockport to Piccadilly) and negotiate the ticket barrier at Piccadilly (again, another explanation required).

It seems to me that there are lots of issues to be sorted out before the closure of ticket offices should even be questioned, let alone answered.

 

[johncrossley]

I normally purchase my tickets online, where possible, but yesterday I wanted to purchase a System One Bus/Train/Tram day ticket (which is unavailable online) at Stockport Station. However, the booking office was closed (staffing issues?) and the staff and machines were unable to issue that particular ticket.

What is so special about that ticket that it cannot be bought from a machine or online? It isn't a new ticket.

Internal messages are sent out to revenue teams not to penalty fare in such circumstances. Also most conductors I work with sell off peak tickets onboard even if from a barriered station.

How is the passenger supposed to know if these messages are being sent out? If you can't buy a ticket then the station is effectively closed to non-ticket holders.

 

[hawk1911]

What is so special about that ticket that it cannot be bought from a machine or online? It isn't a new ticket.

It's a good question and it is certainly not a new ticket. Unfortunately, I don't know why it hasn't been made available by machine/online.

 

[dk1]

How is the passenger supposed to know if these messages are being sent out? If you can't buy a ticket then the station is effectively closed to non-ticket holders.

They won’t but equally they won’t be penalty fared or charged extra. These eventualities happen from time to time for a number of reasons.

 

[johncrossley]

They won’t

So only the risk takers will be able to take advantage. The risk averse will have to find alternative transport, or cancel the trip.

 

[dk1]

So only the risk takers will be able to take advantage. The risk averse will have to find alternative transport, or cancel the trip.

They usually just go onto Twitter where they will be advised appropriately. It often happens several times a day where facilities become unavailable.

 

[Hadders]

If there is a long queue for the TVM, staff unable to assist as eitger too busy with other passengers/ in loo or worse broken down, passengers should be able to buy off peak, discounted fares on board the train even advances on board the trains without being charged full rate or issued with a penalty fare, just like a bus conductor on old buses.

So far I've not seen any proviso for such a scenario, if the TOCs starts issuing punitive fares rather than corrective fares, this will only drive away customers.

There is no entitlement to board a train without a ticket just because there is a queue. This applies whther or not there is a ticket office.

 

[wilbers]

There is no entitlement to board a train without a ticket just because there is a queue. This applies whther or not there is a ticket office.

.. unless given permission to do so by a member of staff (and should be written permission to avoid complications).

 

[mikeg]

The real issue is what if a journey planner tvm is working but refuses the ticket you want because of the journey planner being crap. Until tvms can reproduce every aspect of a ticket office ticket offices should remain open

 

[CyrusWuff]

What is so special about that ticket that it cannot be bought from a machine or online? It isn't a new ticket.

Probably because it's set up in the fares database as a Day Ranger, so I'm guessing it'd only be available from a Northern TVM.

 

[Hadders]

.. unless given permission to do so by a member of staff (and should be written permission to avoid complications).

Good luck getting anything in writing.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why should advance fares be available once someone has started travelling?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why should advance fares be available once someone has started travelling?

Indeed, but are we only talking about the fairly niche instances, for example, where Northern TVMs sometimes offer advance fares for the next departure?

 

[Deerfold]

Indedd, but has anyone actually already mentioned that?

The OP did.

But you'd usually have to be in very good time to buy one of those even where ticket machines or ticket offices sell them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, but are we only talking about the fairly niche instances, for example, where Northern TVMs sometimes offer advance fares for the next departure?

That's also really daft; they've stopped selling them at ticket offices, bizarre that the customer can just turn up and go with an Advance ticket. That's not what they were for. Northern shouldn't have any at all.

 

[Watershed]

Why should advance fares be available once someone has started travelling?

At quite a few stations it's now possible to use the TVM to buy an Advance for a train departing in 10 or 15 minutes' time. The NRCoT explicitly say that where you were unable to buy a ticket before travelling:

The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

So if an Advance would have been available, that's how much you should actually be charged!

Clearly, in practical terms no-one is going to sell you an Advance onboard the train. The industry has made this impossible due to technical and data constraints. But you'd certainly have grounds for complaint if you were charged for a more expensive walk-up fare.

 

[SteveM70]

That's also really daft; they've stopped selling them at ticket offices, bizarre that the customer can just turn up and go with an Advance ticket. That's not what they were for. Northern shouldn't have any at all.

Agreed Northern aren’t using advances how they were intended, but to say they shouldn’t have any at all puzzles me. Why shouldn’t they for some of their longer journeys?

 

[Deerfold]

That's also really daft; they've stopped selling them at ticket offices, bizarre that the customer can just turn up and go with an Advance ticket. That's not what they were for. Northern shouldn't have any at all.

Should I have to pay twice as much as the advance?

 

[AlterEgo]

Should I have to pay twice as much as the advance?

I’m not making an argument against cheaper travel but the concept of walk up “advance” fares is ridiculous.

Advance, fixed-itinerary tickets on local services is a pretty mental concept. By and large Northern shouldn’t need to yield manage its loadings; it operates no intercity services at all.

 

[Watershed]

I’m not making an argument against cheaper travel but the concept of walk up “advance” fares is ridiculous.

Advance, fixed-itinerary tickets on local services is a pretty mental concept. By and large Northern shouldn’t need to yield manage its loadings; it operates no intercity services at all.

Worst of all is where they're offering £1.80 and £1.90 Advances on 5 minute journeys such as Mauldeth Road or Ashburys to Manchester Piccadilly, to compete with the bus (which is capped at £2).

 

[Deerfold]

I’m not making an argument against cheaper travel but the concept of walk up “advance” fares is ridiculous.

Advance, fixed-itinerary tickets on local services is a pretty mental concept. By and large Northern shouldn’t need to yield manage its loadings; it operates no intercity services at all.

If they withdraw them, my travel will get more expensive. I often buy on the bus on the way to the station.

They might be a mad idea, but the effect of removing them will be more expensive travel for many.

Worst of all is where they're offering £1.80 and £1.90 Advances on 5 minute journeys such as Mauldeth Road or Ashburys to Manchester Piccadilly, to compete with the bus (which is capped at £2).

That does seem silly. I'm usually paying between a third and a half of the normal single fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

If they withdraw them, my travel will get more expensive. I often buy on the bus on the way to the station.

They might be a mad idea, but the effect of removing them will be more expensive travel for many.

Perhaps, but there’s no reason Northern can’t offer their own promotional fares which aren’t Advances, and which needlessly tie people to itineraries.

 

[Deerfold]

Perhaps, but there’s no reason Northern can’t offer their own promotional fares which aren’t Advances, and which needlessly tie people to itineraries.

There isn't. But there's no reason to believe that's what'll happen if advances are removed.

 

[Dave91131]

What is the correct course of action for a passenger to take if they are unable to purchase the ticket(s) they require from a TVM prior to travelling?

And what, if any, action should the passenger face for boarding the train without a ticket?

We will assume no other ticket purchasing facilities (ticket office or floor walking staff or online device) are available, and that the TVM is in full working order as per its design and programming but does not accept the chosen payment method and / or cannot sell the ticket(s) the passenger requires.

Responses appreciated.

 

[sheff1]

That's also really daft; they've stopped selling them at ticket offices, bizarre that the customer can just turn up and go with an Advance ticket. That's not what they were for. Northern shouldn't have any at all.

It's daft that they have stopped selling them at ticket offices but, despite your claim you are not arguing against cheaper travel, if the Advances were withdrawn as you seemingly think they should be people would be paying (a lot) more. If someone wants to go to Manchester this afternoon they can get a ticket for the 1514 Northern service from Sheffield @ £9.50. For the 1511 TPE or the 1538 EMR the cost is £25.40. A 'Northern Only' flexible single is £20.10.

Arrival times in Manchester of the 1511 & 1514 are 1607 &1632. Getting there 25 mins later but saving nearly £16 will be very attractive to some and will buy a meal, even in the Northern Quarter The journey is definitely an inter-city one with little difference in onboard comfort between the operators.

 

[MotCO]

Good luck getting anything in writing.

Can staff have books of 'Permit to Travel' vouchers - maybe a different colour each day to avoid people photocopying them - which essentially confirm the station the passenger is travelling from to allow them to board and buy ticket at the next available opportunity?

There isn't. But there's no reason to believe that's what'll happen if advances are removed.

Why not simply reduce the single and return fares to the same level as the Advances, which essentially is what they are?

 

[Haywain]

Why not simply reduce the single and return fares to the same level as the Advances, which essentially is what they are?

Because there isn't a hope in hell of the DfT and/or Treasury agreeing to that happening.

 

[johncrossley]

I presume Northern recoup some of the lower costs of Advance fares by some passengers paying twice because they travel on the wrong train, which can still happen even if they buy the ticket just before travel, or by breaking the rules of the ticket, for example by breaking the journey or ending the journey at an intermediate station.