Ticket purchased by accident for the wrong day

[cameroon]

I was travelling from local station to Manchester today on 22/05, where I would be working from the office and travelling to London in the afternoon and then onwards to Paris for meetings the next day.
At 8:29AM I purchased a ticket when I got to the station for the 8:39 train but by mistake picked the wrong day (23rd) on Uber tickets. This was an anytime single ticket so not an advanced.

The ticket was checked on the train but the conductor never mentioned anything about the date. When I got to Manchester the ticket wouldn't work at the barrier, I showed the inspector not realising why it wasn't accepted and he said it was the wrong date. He then directed me to another guard who told me 'oh I can sort this for you and proceeded to give me a penalty fair notice (which I didn't realise at the time until he was doing until it was printed)

I appealed giving the details above with the evidence of the onward travel and saying I wasn't even going to be in the country for the date on the ticket so had no way of ever using the ticket. Unfortunately, it was rejected, Is worth re-appealing?

My annoyance is that the ticket was £12 and I would have just bought another one at the gate but the inspector made out that he understood and was just sorting it out for me whilst issuing a £63 penalty notice on the sly. Text from the first appeal is below:

I understand it was thought the ticket produced for inspection was valid for the journey made, however,
that isn’t the case I’m afraid.
It remains the passenger’s responsibility to confirm that their ticket is valid for their entire journey they
intend making before boarding the train. This also involves checking the date of travel, that the proposed
route between the stations recorded on the ticket is valid, and any other restrictions which may apply to the
use of that ticket on the rail network.
As the ticket produced for inspection was not valid for the entire journey recorded on the penalty fare and
the facility to check the validity of the ticket existed at the time of travel, regrettably it has been concluded
by Penalty Services that the penalty fare should stand.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you please upload a copy of the notice with your details obscured? This will help us see if there are any grounds for appeal.

 

[Haywain]

I appealed giving the details above with the evidence of the onward travel and saying I wasn't even going to be in the country for the date on the ticket so had no way of ever using the ticket. Unfortunately, it was rejected, Is worth re-appealing?

Yes. However, there are limited grounds for appealing against the issue of a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) and making a mistake in purchasing isn't a valid ground for appeal, as PFNs are intended to be issued where a mistake has been made. If you post a copy of the notice with your details obscured, there are plenty of people here who will be able to provide advice on how you can submit a new appeal. You actually have 3 opportunities to appeal so even if a second one fails, you will still have a third opportunity.

 

[cameroon]

Yes. However, there are limited grounds for appealing against the issue of a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) and making a mistake in purchasing isn't a valid ground for appeal, as PFNs are intended to be issued where a mistake has been made. If you post a copy of the notice with your details obscured, there are plenty of people here who will be able to provide advice on how you can submit a new appeal. You actually have 3 opportunities to appeal so even if a second one fails, you will still have a third opportunity.

Thanks for your reply. I've just read on the ticket that if I don't pay within 21 days its £113.10 and it doesn't include any time on appeal. The first appeal took 19 days so can I pay the reduced £63.10 and still appeal and get a refund?

 

[jfollows]

The clock stops during the appeal period:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

These Regulations amend the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/366) which make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory...

www.legislation.gov.uk

“(1A) In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—

(a)£100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b)if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.

(1B) In calculating the period referred to in paragraph (1A)(b) no account is to be taken of any time on appeal.”.

(3) After regulation 9(2), insert—

“(2A) In paragraph (1A), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).”.

 

[cameroon]

Copy of my notice:

 

[AlterEgo]

At which station did you board?

 

[cameroon]

At which station did you board?

Burnley

 

[Haywain]

Burnley

Central, Barracks or Manchester Road? It's important as it allows us to establish whether the correct fare has been charged, and if it hasn't that is a valid ground for appeal.

 

[cameroon]

Burnley Manchester Road

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Central, Barracks or Manchester Road? It's important as it allows us to establish whether the correct fare has been charged, and if it hasn't that is a valid ground for appeal.

Burnley Manchester Road

£13.10 is indeed the Anytime Day Single fare for a journey from Burnley Manchester Road to Manchester Stns, route "via Todmorden".

 

[cameroon]

The clock stops during the appeal period:

The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

These Regulations amend the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/366) which make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory...

www.legislation.gov.uk

Thanks for the info, I was going off the following text on the ticket which makes it sound as though time on appeal will not be included in the 21 days

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for the info, I was going off the following text on the ticket which makes it sound as though time on appeal will not be included in the 21 days

The meaning of that sentence is the opposite to what you are thinking.

 

[jfollows]

The meaning of that sentence is the opposite to what you are thinking.

Yes, I read it the wrong way round also when I first saw it, a strange way of wording it, but if you close one eye and think about it it means that the clock stops during the appeal process ……

 

[Haywain]

I was going off the following text on the ticket which makes it sound as though time on appeal will not be included in the 21 days

I can see how you would think that, as the wording is a bit clumsy.

 

[cameroon]

The meaning of that sentence is the opposite to what you are thinking.

yes seems obvious now, but was confusing when I first read it

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, does the OP have any grounds for making a valid appeal?

 

[AlterEgo]

So, does the OP have any grounds for making a valid appeal?

Unless there is deficient signage at Burnley Manchester Road I do not see any grounds for appeal myself. The notice appears compliant and made out with an appropriate reason.
This doesn't stop the OP launching a compelling reasons appeal, up to the third appeal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, does the OP have any grounds for making a valid appeal?

I'm not sure they do - this is a correct use for a Penalty Fare.

(I have been in this exact situation apart from that I noticed the issue myself once on board and repurchased for the correct day* - had I made it to the gateline a Penalty Fare is what I would have expected and I would have paid it in this case).

* Yes, I know, some particularly fussy RPIs would have written me up for prosecution for that, but in a 3 minute journey from Exeter Central to St Davids** I doubt they'd have had chance!
** Yes, I know Central is gated, the staff member on the gateline didn't notice it either (must have looked honest as I didn't do it deliberately) and let me through!

Unless there is deficient signage at Burnley Manchester Road I do not see any grounds for appeal myself. The notice appears compliant and made out with an appropriate reason.
This doesn't stop the OP launching a compelling reasons appeal, up to the third appeal.

Indeed, there's no harm in trying it, but I'd think success unlikely.

 

[furlong]

The ticket was checked on the train but the conductor never mentioned anything about the date.

Can you be more specific? Was it checked visually? Was it a ticket collected from a machine or was it electronic? Did it contain a code that was scanned digitally? Or clipped/stamped or written on?

 

[cameroon]

Can you be more specific? Was it checked visually? Was it a ticket collected from a machine or was it electronic? Did it contain a code that was scanned digitally? Or clipped/stamped or written on?

the ticket was purchased on Uber and was scanned on the train

 

[Mainline421]

At best you might be able to refund the original ticket as unused.

 

[furlong]

If it was scanned, wouldn't it have flagged up as the wrong date? Where on the journey did this happen? You should ask for a copy of the scan data. (Some forum members might come forward and be willing to look this up for you.) In other words the railway must have become aware of the problem at the time of the on-board scan and as a minimum you should have had the option of leaving the train at the next stop (with or without penalty) in order to regularise the situation before continuing. Consequently there may be an argument that the railway's avoidable inaction led to the amount of the PF being higher than it should have been had the matter been dealt with at the railway's first opportunity.

Do check the signage, as that can be an easy reason for an appeal.
I'd suggest repeating the "special circumstances" appeal you already made - in effect that the ticket should just have been redated (i.e. marked as fully used) - and consider adding on another "special circumstances" appeal on the grounds that the railway negligently made the problem worse and any penalty should have been issued earlier when its amount would have been lower.

 

[cvs]

This is a problem with uber app. It defaults to the last date of ticket purchase. I faced a similar situation. Thankfully, it was my usual station of exit. They were kind enough to make me buy for the correct day. I refunded the uber ticket.