Ticket Splitting Website - TrainMiser

[TrainMiser]

Many thanks for all the feedback.

I've updated the site, including the following fixes:

• Fixed the issue above with some trains spanning midnight
• Corrected the Not Via London, etc. station lists
• Changed London "Metro" links to show as DLR, and enforce the Maltese Cross on these
• Added City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle stations for London Thameslink (manually; the data only lists St Pancras / Farringdon)

 

[maniacmartin]

I've just had a go on this site. I searched for a return from East Croydon to Whittlesford Parkway, outbound on Saturday and returning on Sunday.

It's suggested a 24.60 Off-Peak Return between London Bridge and Whittlesford with covering this part of the itinerary:
London Bridge - St Pancras
Kings Cross - Cambridge
Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway

Judging by the price, this appears to be a London Terminals - Whittlesford Parkway ticket, which isn't valid from London Bridge via Farringdon. There are also no permitted routes via Cambridge for this ticket according to NRE.

Outbound Travel:
Departing 12:00
Sat 14/06/2014
Inbound Travel:
Arriving 17:00
Sun 15/06/2014
Passengers:
1 Adult 0 Children

 

[johnnycache]

Note that the arrival / departure times are paired - this is needed by the search.

Is this really necessary?
You should be able to specify outward and return departure times or outward and return arrival times if that is most convenient

 

[Keith Jarrett]

I tried Trainmiser out on a real journey that is being made tonight, namely Ashford International (AFK) to St Helier (SIH) arriving 19:30 tonight - Friday 13th June - return departure 16:00 on Sunday.

Trainmiser suggests splitting at Clapham Junction each way with a total cost of £41.00 for an off peak return, suggesting three changes each way (at St Pancras, Waterloo outward/Vauxhall return & Wimbledon). However, BRfares.com shows a through fare of £35.80 any permitted (and a few ££ less if you do not travel via HS1). A selection of on-line journey planners offer the £35.80 fare with one (logical) change at St Pancras from HS1 to Wimbledon loop seervices and a faster journey to boot, leaving 17:43 arriving 19:33. I thought that the through fare might fall foul of FCC's evening peak restrictions on off peak tickets from St Pancras but my reading of them as posted on FCCs website is that the traveller will be OK as its a southbound journey wholly within FCC's "Zone B".

And Trainmiser also does not suggest the non HS1 option which can generally be done with only two changes at London Bridge & Blackfriars or Waterloo/East & Wimbledon.

Please don't take this as a rant. Far from it, I was only trying to test if the traveller could better the through fare. It seems that the fare to St Helier from Ashford is good value compared to stopping at St Pancras and switching to Oyster PAYG.

 

[TrainMiser]

I've just had a go on this site. I searched for a return from East Croydon to Whittlesford Parkway, outbound on Saturday and returning on Sunday.

It's suggested a 24.60 Off-Peak Return between London Bridge and Whittlesford with covering this part of the itinerary:
London Bridge - St Pancras
Kings Cross - Cambridge
Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway

Judging by the price, this appears to be a London Terminals - Whittlesford Parkway ticket, which isn't valid from London Bridge via Farringdon. There are also no permitted routes via Cambridge for this ticket according to NRE.

Outbound Travel:
Departing 12:00
Sat 14/06/2014
Inbound Travel:
Arriving 17:00
Sun 15/06/2014
Passengers:
1 Adult 0 Children

Thanks for letting me know about this.

The fare group logic has now been changed to disallow re-entry (which fixes the London Bridge via Farringdon issue, as Farringdon is not a London Terminal).

The routeing via Cambridge was due to an older version of the fares data originally used to generate the list of allowed routeing points.
This has been updated (and will now be updated with each new fares load) - an SDS from Cambridge to London is now more expensive so this is disallowed.

I tried Trainmiser out on a real journey that is being made tonight, namely Ashford International (AFK) to St Helier (SIH) arriving 19:30 tonight - Friday 13th June - return departure 16:00 on Sunday.

Trainmiser suggests splitting at Clapham Junction each way with a total cost of £41.00 for an off peak return, suggesting three changes each way (at St Pancras, Waterloo outward/Vauxhall return & Wimbledon). However, BRfares.com shows a through fare of £35.80 any permitted (and a few ££ less if you do not travel via HS1). A selection of on-line journey planners offer the £35.80 fare with one (logical) change at St Pancras from HS1 to Wimbledon loop seervices and a faster journey to boot, leaving 17:43 arriving 19:33. I thought that the through fare might fall foul of FCC's evening peak restrictions on off peak tickets from St Pancras but my reading of them as posted on FCCs website is that the traveller will be OK as its a southbound journey wholly within FCC's "Zone B".

And Trainmiser also does not suggest the non HS1 option which can generally be done with only two changes at London Bridge & Blackfriars or Waterloo/East & Wimbledon.

Please don't take this as a rant. Far from it, I was only trying to test if the traveller could better the through fare. It seems that the fare to St Helier from Ashford is good value compared to stopping at St Pancras and switching to Oyster PAYG.

I'm really grateful for all the feedback I've had so far, it all helps to improve the site

This was similar to the issue above, i.e. Wimbledon was barred as a routeing point but should now be allowed. The site now returns the £35.80 and £31.60 fares (i.e. there is no better split).

 

[kieron]

The fastest route for the search has a change at Bidston. Travelling via Rock Ferry would add time to the journey, and wouldn't be worth it for the saving.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Could you tell me how you work out when the saving is too low for the time taken to get there? All I know is that it's not based solely on the time you'd need to leave to arrive at or before the requested time (or when you'd arrive if you left on or after the requested time).

Incidentally, am I right in thinking that you have included Birkenhead Hamilton Square as a split point, but only for journeys in some directions? I tried Wrexham General-Liverpool James Street tomorrow (arriving 12:15, departing 12:45), and it suggested a split there, but only gives this fare if I take a later train back via Chester instead of the original suggestion via Bidston? As every train stops there, this seems like a mistake.

 

[TrainMiser]

Thanks, that makes sense.

Could you tell me how you work out when the saving is too low for the time taken to get there? All I know is that it's not based solely on the time you'd need to leave to arrive at or before the requested time (or when you'd arrive if you left on or after the requested time).

There's a trade-off between cost and time based on the search times. The first results have the highest cost per minute (i.e. prioritise speed over cost), and then later results have a lower cost per minute.

Incidentally, am I right in thinking that you have included Birkenhead Hamilton Square as a split point, but only for journeys in some directions? I tried Wrexham General-Liverpool James Street tomorrow (arriving 12:15, departing 12:45), and it suggested a split there, but only gives this fare if I take a later train back via Chester instead of the original suggestion via Bidston? As every train stops there, this seems like a mistake.

Thanks for letting me know - the site wasn't finding some splits within routeing point groups, this is fixed now.

 

[crosscity]

I've just tried your app to test the results for a day out from Kings Norton to Exeter Central catching the 0812 HST from Birmingham New St on a weekday. It advised splitting at New st, Cheltenham, Bristol TM and Taunton. This is a journey I make with split tickets, and I agree with the splits except the first (New St) one. An Anytime Return from Kings Norton to Cheltenham is the same price as one from New St, and is valid via New St, so there is no need to waste £4.10 on a separate ticket to New St.

It's not a bad app, but a choice of dep or arr in either direction would be useful, as well as a 'next' or 'prior' service so that you can see how waiting or leaving earlier might influence the price.

 

[Paul Kelly]

An Anytime Return from Kings Norton to Cheltenham is the same price as one from New St, and is valid via New St, so there is no need to waste £4.10 on a separate ticket to New St.

Is there an easement that allows this doubleback? It seems to add about 10 miles to the journey.

 

[SickyNicky]

Is there an easement that allows this doubleback? It seems to add about 10 miles to the journey.

I don't think there is. The only easement I can find is easement 300370, which is a routeing point easement:

Customers travelling from Selly Oak, Bournville, Kings Norton, Northfield and Longbridge via Bromsgrove may travel via Barnt Green. This easement applies in both directions.

However, booking engines allow it. I am investigating why this may be the case.

 

[dracos]

However, booking engines allow it. I am investigating why this may be the case.

I imagine it's a typo, and it should say "...may travel via Birmingham New Street." in which case it makes sense? I'm reminded of the thread where this easement appeared: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=346788#post346788 and the same kind of thing was said.

 

[TrainMiser]

I imagine it's a typo, and it should say "...may travel via Birmingham New Street." in which case it makes sense? I'm reminded of the thread where this easement appeared: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=346788#post346788 and the same kind of thing was said.

furlong's explanation in this thread makes sense to me, i.e. doubling back is permitted to / from a routeing point provided that routeing point is allowed under the fare check.
This would apply to Kings Norton to Cheltenham.

Selly Oak to Avonmouth would fail the fare check for New St, and so an easement would be needed.

 

[SickyNicky]

Yes, that makes sense. In other words, double backs are only checked for the mapped portion of the journey, in these circumstances. But that thread didn't resolve the issue - there does appear to be inconsistency in the routeing guide instructions. But then, that's nothing new!

 

[crosscity]

Is there an easement that allows this doubleback? It seems to add about 10 miles to the journey.

I have been travelling to the South West from Kings Norton with through tickets for the past 30 years, and have never had a problem "doubling-back" to New St.

Here are some interesting points:
1) The Anytime Return fare to Cheltenham from Kings Norton, New St, Wolverhampton, Birmingham International, Blake St and many other stations in the Birmingham area is £36.50. The same ticket type from Barnt Green and Redditch is £40.00. Kings Norton has Routing points of Birmingham Group and Barnt Green.

2) Easements in the area that I have found are:
86 - Journeys to Alvechurch, Barnt Green and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street or University. This easement applies in both directions of travel with fares routed Any Permitted or Bristol.
300370 - Customers travelling from Selly Oak, Bournville, Kings Norton, Northfield and Longbridge via Bromsgrove may travel via Barnt Green. This easement applies in both directions.
300420 - Customers travelling from Barnt Green via Cheltenham Spa may travel via University. This easement applies in both directions.
300422 - Customers travelling from Bromsgrove via Cheltenham Spa may travel via Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions.
700108 - Customers travelling from Bromsgrove to Birmingham New Street and beyond may travel via Barnt Green. This easement applies in both directions.
700128 - Allow a double back between Bournville and University for journeys between Bournville and Worcester Stations
700189 - Customers travelling from Hereford, Ledbury, Colwall, Great Malvern,Malvern Link, Worcester Foregate Street and Worcester Shrub Hill to Cheltenham Spa and beyond, may not travel via Bromsgrove. This easement applies in both directions.
700248 - Customers travelling from Five Ways or University via Bromsgrove in possession of tickets routed "Not Via London" may travel via Barnt Green.This easement applies in both directions.

3) On a weekday there are only two departures South-west bound that can be connected into from Kings Norton. These are the 7:41 from Barnt Green to Great Malvern and 8:18 Barnt Green to Hereford. Only two trains stop at Barnt Green in the return direction - the 16:49 and 18:49 arrivals from Hereford.

The Easements are a bit of a dog's breakfast, but to me the intention is clear: because of the poor service from Barnt Green to Worcester and Cheltenham, if you have a ticket to Bromsgrove and beyond from any station between Redditch and Five Ways you may double back to New St. To me this is sensible and practical. Tweaks may be needed when the Crosscity service is extended to Bromsgrove, but I would hope the double-back remains for journeys to Ashchurch and Cheltenham and beyond.

For me the clue is that it's more expensive from Redditch and Barnt Green to Cheltenham, than further North - the assumption is that you will travel further (ie to Birmingham) even though you start much closer to Cheltenham!

To TrainMiser: I still believe the £4.10 does not need to be paid.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I agree now that no easement is needed, since (a) Birmingham passes the fares check as an appropriate routeing point, and (b) we don't need to consider the first part of the journey (to the origin routeing point) when checking for double-backs. I have learnt something new today!

 

[34D]

furlong's explanation in this thread makes sense to me, i.e. doubling back is permitted to / from a routeing point provided that routeing point is allowed under the fare check.
This would apply to Kings Norton to Cheltenham.

Selly Oak to Avonmouth would fail the fare check for New St, and so an easement would be needed.

I
To TrainMiser: I still believe the £4.10 does not need to be paid.

Isn't there a viewpoint to say that the doubleback to New Street is only valid for interchange purposes, and not for starting short?

 

[SickyNicky]

Isn't there a viewpoint to say that the doubleback to New Street is only valid for interchange purposes, and not for starting short?

It's unlikely to create anomolies because the routeing point must pass the fares check rule anyway. Granted, in electronic systems this uses NFM64 data, so it is possible.

 

[crosscity]

Isn't there a viewpoint to say that the doubleback to New Street is only valid for interchange purposes, and not for starting short?

If I've got a ticket from Kings Norton to Cheltenham, and via Birmingham is a permitted route, then isn't whether I break the journey or start short down to the validity of the ticket, not the routing guide?

 

[kieron]

Isn't there a viewpoint to say that the doubleback to New Street is only valid for interchange purposes, and not for starting short?

If you can express it, it's a viewpoint. That sounds rather like a garbled recollection of the rules for routeing groups in the routeing guide, though, and these do not come into play here as no-one has proposed passing through any station in a group more than once.

I have seen a claim that a ticket expires once you reach the destination on the ticket, whatever the NRCOC says about it. I don't know if anyone would claim this for this journey.