Tickets to/from TfL zone boundaries

[Zoner]

What to do when denied boarding despite having a valid ticket?

I have a TfL annual travelcard for zones 1-4. I regularly buy tickets for travel out of London "from boundary zone 4" to a range of destinations.

My understanding of National Rail Conditions of Travel (paragraph 14.3), and the guidance on the National Rail website HERE is that these tickets are valid even if the train doesn't stop in zone 4 and just goes straight to a destination out of London.

Every couple of weeks I'll get a ticket inspector tell me that my ticket isn't valid. Normally they "let me off" - I suspect because when I insist that it is valid they start to doubt themselves and decide not to escalate it. However on two occasions now staff at the station have refused to let me board a train, leaving me late to meet clients. No amount of showing them the website guidance or explaining which rules make this ticket valid would shift them, they just turn their back. Today they told me that the National Rail conditions do not count for them, because they are Avanti - how do you even respond to that?

I'm at a loss for what to do. I probably save over £500 per year buying these tickets instead of to/from a London terminal, but I cannot risk randomly being refused travel when I'm on my way to visit clients.

 

[SynthD]

Today they told me that the National Rail conditions do not count for them, because they are Avanti - how do you even respond to that?

That earns them a complaint to Avanti customer services or higher up. Is it possible to ask for a penalty fare (if they follow that part of the nrcot), then dispute it later with your evidence?

 

[hkstudent]

What to do when denied boarding despite having a valid ticket?

I have a TfL annual travelcard for zones 1-4. I regularly buy tickets for travel out of London "from boundary zone 4" to a range of destinations.

My understanding of National Rail Conditions of Travel (paragraph 14.3), and the guidance on the National Rail website HERE is that these tickets are valid even if the train doesn't stop in zone 4 and just goes straight to a destination out of London.

Every couple of weeks I'll get a ticket inspector tell me that my ticket isn't valid. Normally they "let me off" - I suspect because when I insist that it is valid they start to doubt themselves and decide not to escalate it. However on two occasions now staff at the station have refused to let me board a train, leaving me late to meet clients. No amount of showing them the website guidance or explaining which rules make this ticket valid would shift them, they just turn their back. Today they told me that the National Rail conditions do not count for them, because they are Avanti - how do you even respond to that?

I'm at a loss for what to do. I probably save over £500 per year buying these tickets instead of to/from a London terminal, but I cannot risk randomly being refused travel when I'm on my way to visit clients.

The Avanti staff is definitely in the wrong in the current (5+ year ish) NRCOT regulations.
All train services must honour the boundary zone ticket arrangement.

The reason why Avanti staff attempted to ban boundary zone ticket is due to Avanti receive zero revenue from allocation due to not having another stations within the travelcard zone.

I don't count my hopes on Avanti Customer Service. But would suggest escalate to London Travelwatch and your local MP if the responses are unsatisfactory.

 

[jon81uk]

when you are boarding you’ll need to tap your zone 1-4 ticket on the barrier, at the origin station they don’t need to know you are going outside of the zones. Onboard you may need to show both and then when exiting just the boundary to destination ticket.

 

[jfollows]

when you are boarding you’ll need to tap your zone 1-4 ticket on the barrier, at the origin station they don’t need to know you are going outside of the zones. Onboard you may need to show both and then when exiting just the boundary to destination ticket.

I think the original poster is referring to the manned gateline at London Euston which “has form” for making up the rules. Generally no option of a barrier.

 

[jon81uk]

I think the original poster is referring to the manned gateline at London Euston which “has form” for making up the rules. Generally no option of a barrier.

Ah yes I can see why that would be harder because they have no reason to accept Oyster.

 

[furlong]

Perhaps Avanti needs dragging into https://boundaryfares.com/ !

I suggest you write a robust letter to Avanti seeking compensation for the occasions on which you were late for your clients (breach of contract) and putting them on notice should this ever happen again.

You can also report it to the DfT as a breach of their licence obligations (their 'Obligation to Carry').

 

[swt_passenger]

… Today they told me that the National Rail conditions do not count for them, because they are Avanti - how do you even respond to that?

They’ve been consistent with that rubbish over quite a long period, I’m sure they used to say that under Virgin back in the day. If you have one of their credit card sized tickets doesn’t it still say on the back that it is issued subject to the NRCofT?

 

[spag23]

If it were me, I'd (covertly) video the next obstruction incident, ensuring that it captures the identities of the officials, along with any declarations from them that the NRCOT doesn't apply to Avanti. Plus maybe try and enter the platform anyway and call the BTP if they then manhandle you, rather than issuing a TIR?

From the NRCOT introduction:
" Please note that neither a Train Company’s staff, nor a Licensed Retailer’s staff has the authority to waive or change the Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to do so within the Conditions."

 

[mrmartin]

What to do when denied boarding despite having a valid ticket?

I have a TfL annual travelcard for zones 1-4. I regularly buy tickets for travel out of London "from boundary zone 4" to a range of destinations.

My understanding of National Rail Conditions of Travel (paragraph 14.3), and the guidance on the National Rail website HERE is that these tickets are valid even if the train doesn't stop in zone 4 and just goes straight to a destination out of London.

Every couple of weeks I'll get a ticket inspector tell me that my ticket isn't valid. Normally they "let me off" - I suspect because when I insist that it is valid they start to doubt themselves and decide not to escalate it. However on two occasions now staff at the station have refused to let me board a train, leaving me late to meet clients. No amount of showing them the website guidance or explaining which rules make this ticket valid would shift them, they just turn their back. Today they told me that the National Rail conditions do not count for them, because they are Avanti - how do you even respond to that?

I'm at a loss for what to do. I probably save over £500 per year buying these tickets instead of to/from a London terminal, but I cannot risk randomly being refused travel when I'm on my way to visit clients.

I personally would email customer services and then show the email response from them to the conductor if asked.

 

[furlong]

You can read about that here - https://web.archive.org/web/20190103013703/http://virgintrains.org.uk/

 

[danielcanning]

I've had problems with the Avanti staff in Euston, in fact the last time I tried to board a train (with a ALR) when they told me my ticket was not valid after a couple of minute of arguing I just barged my way through onto the platform. I wouldn't recommend doing that though...

 

[trek]

when you are boarding you’ll need to tap your zone 1-4 ticket on the barrier, at the origin station they don’t need to know you are going outside of the zones. Onboard you may need to show both and then when exiting just the boundary to destination ticket.

I'm suspecting that as this is Avanti it is probably Euston and the manual blocks as opposed to one of the few gated platforms, and I suspect may not carry Oyster readers to check the correct travelcard is even held (not the passenger's problem though). If they really want to be sure they can always direct a customer to use a manual reader to touch in which if they didn't have the correct travelcard would result in a maximum fare.

 

[Zoner]

Thanks everyone, I have made my complaint and await a reply. I'll let you know what happens. Having complained to GWR about this in the past my experience is I'll get some vague response saying they will investigate it but cannot say more because of confidentiality for the member of staff concerned.

I strongly suspect that the management approach to staff incentivises this behaviour. Letting someone on board with a ticket that's not valid is a Big Deal, whereas someone moaning they were made half an hour late because their valid ticket was not accepted just fades in to the background noise of thousands of passengers complaining about being delayed on the trains.

I'm suspecting that as this is Avanti it is probably Euston and the manual blocks as opposed to one of the few gated platforms, and I suspect may not carry Oyster readers to check the correct travelcard is even held (not the passenger's problem though). If they really want to be sure they can always direct a customer to use a manual reader to touch in which if they didn't have the correct travelcard would result in a maximum fare.

You're right they had no Oyster reader - but they seemed willing to accept that I did have an annual zone 1-4. It was just an impossible conversation where they stonewalled what I was saying or came up with complete non-sequiters. There were three of them and they were literally making stuff up on the spot. One of them said that National Rail "is just a ticket broker" so their t&c's don't apply. I showed one of them the guidance on nationalrail.co.uk, she glanced at it for a second before just telling me it did not apply to this journey.

I think the original poster is referring to the manned gateline at London Euston which “has form” for making up the rules. Generally no option of a barrier.

It was indeed Euston. Though some barrier gatelines seem programmed not to accept Oyster cards where there are not going to be any stops within the TfL zones.

That earns them a complaint to Avanti customer services or higher up. Is it possible to ask for a penalty fare (if they follow that part of the nrcot), then dispute it later with your evidence?

If I had already been on the train I would have told them to give me a penalty if they had courage in what they were saying, unfortunately I had not made it on to the platform! They did offer to sell me a new ticket so that I could double my expenditure for the day in the hope of getting half back via the complaints process. With about 90 seconds to decide, and given how useless these guys had been I did not have much faith in getting any money back via a complaint.

I've had problems with the Avanti staff in Euston, in fact the last time I tried to board a train (with a ALR) when they told me my ticket was not valid after a couple of minute of arguing I just barged my way through onto the platform. I wouldn't recommend doing that though...

Haha an approach for someone a bit braver than me. Hilariously I joined the train back to London that had the same crew. I was wondering what on earth would happen when they checked my ticket and saw me travelling on one they'd refused to honour earlier that morning. Never got the chance to find out as they stood in the vestibule nattering and never did a ticket check.

 

[Hadders]

Avanti have form for this type of behaviour, as do GWR at Paddington. Your combination of tickets is perfectly valid.

It is sadly quite common for staff to make up their own rules, please do persist in escalating this as it needs dealing with.

 

[furlong]

Also just confirm that the tickets you are buying are full price or else if discounted (e.g. with a railcard), which discount? And no time restrictions that are relevant?

 

[Zoner]

Also just confirm that the tickets you are buying are full price or else if discounted (e.g. with a railcard), which discount? And no time restrictions that are relevant?

Just a straight up anytime ticket. The only reason they gave for it not being valid was that the train did not stop within zone 4.

I think it's in their programming that once they've said a ticket is invalid they can never back down, no matter how much convincing information they are given. I've certainly never experienced it.

Once at Paddington I had to get a manager to make barrier staff let me through, after which the women who had sworn my ticket was only valid on the stopping train said "oh... You've got a gold card! Well if you'd told me that in the first place I would have let you through!"
Dear Reader, it was peak time, and it was not a gold card ticket.

 

[furlong]

Well the simple thing when it happens is you move the discussion to a point at which you decide the company has breached its contract ("How do you propose to fulfill your company's side of this contract?" etc.), gathering whatever evidence you can so this cannot be questioned later - ideally something in writing or else videoed e.g. try to get them to write down that they are not accepting the ticket and why. Then you have no contract so must purchase a new ticket - if you buy it from the same people, again that can help as evidence they didn't accept the first one. If you can, take a photo showing all the things together - old and new tickets, a station clock etc. Then you send the company a letter before action, claiming compensation for the breach including the cost of the new ticket and any other reasonable expenses (including your time - there's a standard rate to use) incurred as a result, and if they don't settle, pursue it as a small claim and hope the court agrees with you.

The DfT should be informed as it needs to take action for the breach of the 'Obligation to Carry' (which in simple terms means a train company cannot operate its trains unless it accepts all valid tickets - it has no discretion to pick and choose).

It's the ORR's job to enforce consumer law so it should also open an enquiry - ultimately it has the power to prosecute the train company if it can be shown (roughly speaking) that it knew it was wrong to sell a new ticket in this situation yet it did so anyway. (Generally the first time it should put the company on notice never to do it again - then if it does, the prosecution avenue opens up.)

While a single instance should be sufficient to require those bodies to act, each would find it harder to ignore an evidenced ongoing pattern of behaviour whereby the situation continues despite the company indisputably having been informed of the errors of its ways in writing.

 

[island]

I'm suspecting that as this is Avanti it is probably Euston and the manual blocks as opposed to one of the few gated platforms, and I suspect may not carry Oyster readers to check the correct travelcard is even held (not the passenger's problem though).

As the OP has an annual ticket they can simply show their Gold Record Card for this purpose.

 

[Zoner]

Just had the reply to my complaint (in which I had specifically referred them to rule 14.3)

Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast.

I have looked into the validity of your split tickets.

The tickets are not valid for travel as per the national terms of conditions of carriage split ticket policies.

The reason for this is there is no valid zone 4 stop between London Euston and Milton Keynes.

The conditions of travel state: In order to ‘split’ a journey with two or more Tickets under Condition 14.2 the services you use must be scheduled to stop at a station to allow passengers to alight and/or board that service, as permitted by the terms & conditions of the Ticket held. There is no requirement for you to alight and re-board the same service.

As there is no stop on your journey where you would "re-board" it means there is nowhere for the tickets to change-over.

I hope the information I have provided makes sense.

If there is anything else I can do to help, do not hesitate to ask

I have written back:

I'm afraid you are wrong. The relevant paragraph of the National Rail Conditions of Travel is not paragraph 14.2, which does not apply to zonal tickets.

Paragraph 14.3 applies to zonal tickets and makes clear that the train does not need to stop:

Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or
another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in
conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the
first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to
Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

I am very concerned that even after making clear in my complaint which rules apply to this combination of tickets I am still being told incorrect information by Avanti.

I would like you to, please:
1. Review your response to my complaint, referring to the correct rule.
2. Refer your original response to my complaint to a manager and provide me with a reply from someone in a management position explaining how and why my complaint was incorrectly rejected the first time.

 

[_toommm_]

Just had the reply to my complaint (in which I had specifically referred them to rule 14.3)



I have written back:

I think they’ve known from previous complaints that the relevant condition was 14.2, but not realised it’s changed to 14.3 and simply not bothered to read further down.

EDIT: In an ideal world, staff should have a good understanding of the NRCoT, and staff should be briefed of changes. Unfortunately in the real world it’s less than likely, and unless the staff member has a keen interest, or works for a very knowledgeable company such as Trainsplit, this isn’t going to happen.

 

[Hadders]

Just had the reply to my complaint (in which I had specifically referred them to rule 14.3)



I have written back:

An incredibly incompetent reply from Avanti, although I have to say I’m not surprised.

Please do let us know what they say in response to your escalation.

 

[Zoner]

I think they’ve known from previous complaints that the relevant condition was 14.2, but not realised it’s changed to 14.3 and simply not bothered to read further down.

EDIT: In an ideal world, staff should have a good understanding of the NRCoT, and staff should be briefed of changes. Unfortunately in the real world it’s less than likely, and unless the staff member has a keen interest, or works for a very knowledgeable company such as Trainsplit, this isn’t going to happen.

The most frustrating thing is that where they don't know the rules (and who could possibly understand them all, it's such a complex system) they don't try to seek out the correct information they seem to just guess or assume. Given I'd specifically referred to the correct rule in my complaint I was pretty taken aback by the reply I received.
I just don't know what a traveller is supposed to do when train staff can refuse you boarding with a valid ticket, other station staff at the ticket office back them up, and then even the complaints department gets it wrong. I'm going to have to start traveling with an ombudsman at my side at this rate.

So I made a mistake in post #20 - that reply was not a response to my complaint about being denied boarding, it was a reply to a later complaint I made about ticket office staff giving incorrect advice.

I've just had this reply to my complaint about being denied boarding:

Thank you for contacting Avanti West Coast regarding your recent experience. I'm really sorry to learn of your experience with our staff.

We take all comments about our staff seriously. It's usually our staff who generate the most praise for our service. It's their responsibility to look after you. And to give you the right info. So, when they fall below what we and you expect, then we want to know.

I'm going to pass your comments on to the staff and their manager, so they can talk through the points that you've raised.

Thank you once again for contacting us.

A pointless copy/paste response, which is what I expected I suppose.

 

[Zoner]

Latest update:

In a response to one of my complaints Avanti now claims there is a conflict between rules 14.2 and 14.3.
They say that they need to "investigate" this conflict and that will take some time. In the meantime they begrudgingly accept that I can use tickets to/from Boundary Zone 4 in combination with my travelcard, but they say I may well be stopped and questioned again because of this confusing rules conflict.

I asked whether I will be told the outcome of this "investigation" in to rules that have existed nearly five times as long as Avanti has, but they say I'm not entitled to know.

 

[Wolfie]

Latest update:

In a response to one of my complaints Avanti now claims there is a conflict between rules 14.2 and 14.3.
They say that they need to "investigate" this conflict and that will take some time. In the meantime they begrudgingly accept that I can use tickets to/from Boundary Zone 4 in combination with my travelcard, but they say I may well be stopped and questioned again because of this confusing rules conflict.

I asked whether I will be told the outcome of this "investigation" in to rules that have existed nearly five times as long as Avanti has, but they say I'm not entitled to know.

Utter BS. Suggest that now is the time to go to your MP and get him/her to write to the Secretary of State for Transport....

You may also wish to massively publicly embarrass Avanti via the media.....

 

[jfollows]

The most frustrating thing is that where they don't know the rules (and who could possibly understand them all, it's such a complex system) they don't try to seek out the correct information they seem to just guess or assume. Given I'd specifically referred to the correct rule in my complaint I was pretty taken aback by the reply I received.
I just don't know what a traveller is supposed to do when train staff can refuse you boarding with a valid ticket, other station staff at the ticket office back them up, and then even the complaints department gets it wrong. I'm going to have to start traveling with an ombudsman at my side at this rate.

This appears to be standard operating practice for large parts of the UK railway system, and especially at London Euston station from reports here and elsewhere.
I agree with you, it's an unacceptable response, and especially when you're right and they're wrong they could at least acknowledge this rather than give you a mealy-mouthed non-reply which appears to try to excuse or avoid the issue.

 

[Hadders]

An further incompetent response from Avanti!

It might be worth contacting Barry Doe from RAIL Magazine. This is the sort of issue he's normally keen to mention in his articles, and he's bound to have contacts in Avanti.

 

[Zoner]

So I have two complaints on the go. One is about advice received at the ticket desk, and the reply they gave me (mentioned above) about conducting an investigation in to the conflicting rules related to that complaint. The other complaint is about being refused boarding and their first reply to that was a copy/paste response "we're sorry if you felt unhappy with our staff blah blah" that completely failed to mention any of the substance of my complaint. After receiving that reply I asked them to (1) specifically confirm they accept my ticket combo was valid (2) to consider compensation for delaying my journey. They have just got back to me as follows:

I have investigated this for you and can see as your travel card is Zone 1-4 your ticket would have not been valid to travel to Milton Keynes Central, you would need a Zone 1-6 travel card to travel this far as with your original travel card you can only go as far as Zone 4 due to this you would need to purchase a new ticket from Zone 4 to Milton Keynes Central.

I do apologise if this was not made clear to you when travelling which then resulted in delay but I hope this information is helpful.

I feel like I am in the twilight zone. We are just going around in circles here with them seemingly answering any question except for "does Avanti accept I should have been allowed to board with this ticket combination." Given I was forced to supply a copy of my ticket with my original complaint I have no idea how they have completely misunderstood what ticket combination I was on. I am expecting no better from them and will take it up with watchdogs, but that will take a little time as they need to run out the clock on Avant's time for providing a proper response.

 

[Watershed]

So I have two complaints on the go. One is about advice received at the ticket desk, and the reply they gave me (mentioned above) about conducting an investigation in to the conflicting rules related to that complaint. The other complaint is about being refused boarding and their first reply to that was a copy/paste response "we're sorry if you felt unhappy with our staff blah blah" that completely failed to mention any of the substance of my complaint. After receiving that reply I asked them to (1) specifically confirm they accept my ticket combo was valid (2) to consider compensation for delaying my journey. They have just got back to me as follows:



I feel like I am in the twilight zone. We are just going around in circles here with them seemingly answering any question except for "does Avanti accept I should have been allowed to board with this ticket combination." Given I was forced to supply a copy of my ticket with my original complaint I have no idea how they have completely misunderstood what ticket combination I was on. I am expecting no better from them and will take it up with watchdogs, but that will take a little time as they need to run out the clock on Avant's time for providing a proper response.

Another useless, confused response. Sadly I would expect nothing less from most TOCs' customer services, and I wouldn't hold out high hopes for the hapless Rail Ombudsman to improve things. They seem to operate on the bonkers principle of "let's ask the TOC if they think they've done something wrong"!

 

[swt_passenger]

Another useless, confused response. Sadly I would expect nothing less from most TOCs' customer services, and I wouldn't hold out high hopes for the hapless Rail Ombudsman to improve things. They seem to operate on the bonkers principle of "let's ask the TOC if they think they've done something wrong"!

I think back when the NR conditions were clarified by adding 14.3, wasn’t there a commentary document explaining exactly why it was done? Did anyone keep a copy? I bet it didn’t say there were some self important TOCs it didn’t apply to…