Time to convert 3rd rail to OHLE in light of recent snow/ice problems?

[The Box Photter]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #9 were originally in this thread.

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains are already
OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

 

[robbeech]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains area already OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

Oh come off it. It’d take 30 years and what would it solve? Passengers get out, all lines stop. So they’d have power but would be unable to move.

 

[muz379]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains area already OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

This is not really evidence of that . Plenty of OHLE problems around the network with the snow and ice .

And look at what happens to OHLE lines when its windy

 

[Kite159]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains area already OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

And how much would that cost?

Especially taking into account having to raise multiple bridges which don't have enough clearance and other civil engineering (viaducts/tunnels etc)

 

[Andyh82]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains are already
OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

Because you never get problems with overhead wires?

You hear of the ones on the ECML having issues most weeks of the year!

 

[DanTrain]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains area already OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

Yes, because avoiding disruption in the South on 3 days a year is priority over electrifing the rest of the GWML, MML, TP Mainlines etcetera, etcetera...

 

[6Gman]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains are already
OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

Until it blows and the wires come down ...

 

[Bromley boy]

Time for the Govt to bite the bullet and replace the 3rd rail with 25Kv OHLE. The trains area already OHLE capable and 3rd rail is no longer fit for purpose.

Good luck with that when they can't even electrify the midland mainline.

In any case most SE trains aren't OHLE capable. Many of the bridges are too low and other infrastructure on the network wouldn't be compatible with it either.

 

[The Box Photter]

Come on, it's an antiquated system. The old 3rd rail could be sold for scrap and the network could be rationalised with fewer stations and junctions. This should have been done after WWII. OHLE is the way forward powered by a string of new nuclear power stations, built and operated by a national cooperative. Just think of all the jobs it would create.

 

[The Box Photter]

Luddites. We'd be better going back to steam or diesel. 3rd rail is highly susceptible to ice under normal winter conditions and is highly dangerous for track workers and detrained passengers.

 

[The Box Photter]

Good luck with that when they can't even electrify the midland mainline.

In any case most SE trains aren't OHLE capable. Many of the bridges are too low and other infrastructure on the network wouldn't be compatible with it either.

Most SE trains are dual voltage. 375 376 377 387 700 707 365 444 450 350 313 can all have pans fitted. Even the 456 and 466 could be adapted.

 

[Domh245]

OLE is able to provide far more power than third rail which comes in handy when you are trying to run lots of long (and thus power hungry) trains at the sort of high frequencies that you get south of The River. Also, OLE only tends to blow over if it's the cheap rubbish that is used on the ECML - lessons have been learnt and you wouldn't expect to see that be reused in future schemes.

That said, infrastructural and fiscal constraints realistically prevent anything from happening, although it certainly should be something that is looked at in the very long term once the bulk of the network has been electrified and the expertise has been built up to allow for this sort of programme to take place.

 

[Domh245]

Even the 456 and 466 could be adapted.

Given their age and the difficulty of having to hack off bits of roof to fit pantographs, it would just be easier to replace them with new dual-voltage capable stock, which is what we're likely to see in the next SE franchise.

 

[DanNCL]

Most SE trains are dual voltage. 375 376 377 387 700 707 365 444 450 350 313 can all have pans fitted. Even the 456 and 466 could be adapted.

456s and 466s certainly couldn't have pans fitted without a significant amount of work, as they don't have pan wells. Same goes for 442s, 455s and 465s, and some of the 458s.

It would be an absolute waste of money to go about converting all third rail electrification to OHLE when there are many other routes in the UK without any electrification at all that should be much more of a priority to provide OHLE on. Maybe converting third rail routes to OHLE might be a good idea in the future, but not until there are virtually no diesel only lines left.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most SE trains are dual voltage. 375 376 377 387 700 707 365 444 450 350 313 can all have pans fitted. Even the 456 and 466 could be adapted.

Most of the electrostars aren't currently dual voltage (375/6s are but it's never used in anger). No doubt it would be an expensive undertaking to convert them. The 465s aren't and probably aren't capable of conversion with no pan wells in the roof for one thing (admittedly they might be going soon).

But all of that pales into insignificant compared to the cost of converting what is already a perfectly functional system from one method to another given the massive infrastructure challenges that would represent.

 

[Bromley boy]

Luddites. We'd be better going back to steam or diesel. 3rd rail is highly susceptible to ice under normal winter conditions and is highly dangerous for track workers and detrained passengers.

3rd rail is highly susceptible to ice under normal winter conditions

OHLE is more susceptible to wind. OHLE is more efficient (no need for substantions every couple of miles) but I'm not sure it's necessarily more reliable.

highly dangerous for track workers and detrained passengers

Highly dangerous? That's ridiculous hyperbole. Slightly more dangerous perhaps and only if not treated with respect. Passengers should never be detrained unless the power is off anyway.

I'd take third rail over a downed OHLE line any day.

 

[The Box Photter]

OLE is able to provide far more power than third rail which comes in handy when you are trying to run lots of long (and thus power hungry) trains at the sort of high frequencies that you get south of The River. Also, OLE only tends to blow over if it's the cheap rubbish that is used on the ECML - lessons have been learnt and you wouldn't expect to see that be reused in future schemes.

That said, infrastructural and fiscal constraints realistically prevent anything from happening, although it certainly should be something that is looked at in the very long term once the bulk of the network has been electrified and the expertise has been built up to allow for this sort of programme to take place.

456s and 466s certainly couldn't have pans fitted without a significant amount of work, as they don't have pan wells. Same goes for 442s, 455s and 465s, and some of the 458s.

It would be an absolute waste of money to go about converting all third rail electrification to OHLE when there are many other routes in the UK without any electrification at all that should be much more of a priority to provide OHLE on. Maybe converting third rail routes to OHLE might be a good idea in the future, but not until there are virtually no diesel only lines left.

How many people use the trains in the South London suburbs and South East England each day compared to Trans Pennine or Midland Mainline? Resource should be applied to benefit the maximum number of passengers. Loco plus carriages is perfect for long haul journeys. The locos should be diesel to allow maximum operational and route flexibility.

 

[fergusjbend]

Come on, it's an antiquated system. The old 3rd rail could be sold for scrap and the network could be rationalised with fewer stations and junctions. This should have been done after WWII. OHLE is the way forward powered by a string of new nuclear power stations, built and operated by a national cooperative. Just think of all the jobs it would create.

I think you must have stopped taking your tablets...
This theme has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and elsewhere and is deeply controversial. Simply reasserting old arguments with no new evidence gets us nowhere.

 

[Domh245]

How many people use the trains in the South London suburbs and South East England each day compared to Trans Pennine or Midland Mainline? Resource should be applied to benefit the maximum number of passengers. Loco plus carriages is perfect for long haul journeys. The locos should be diesel to allow maximum operational and route flexibility.

Third rail, while not perfect, is acceptable for the moment. Unelectrified mainlines should be the main priority - eliminate (bulk of) diesel, then improve the sub-par electrification system.

 

[The Box Photter]

I think you must have stopped taking your tablets...
This theme has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and elsewhere and is deeply controversial. Simply reasserting old arguments with no new evidence gets us nowhere.

I can see the nurse approaching with my medication now. We need to be willing to think differently otherwise all we do is keep repeating the same mistakes as before. We seem to be willing to spend about £100 billion on HS2 so the captains of industry and masters of the universe can get to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker. Why not spend that on making sure nurses, teachers and doctors can get to work instead?

 

[Bromley boy]

I can see the nurse approaching with my medication now.

I suggest you take the full dose this time!

 

[Llanigraham]

Luddites. We'd be better going back to steam or diesel. 3rd rail is highly susceptible to ice under normal winter
conditions and is highly dangerous for track workers and detrained passengers.

Simple question that needs a full and complete answer:
Who pays?

 

[theironroad]

Well I saw a network rail educational style cartoon recently which suggest that both ohle and 3rd rail get ice issues.

 

[muz379]

is highly dangerous for track workers and detrained passengers.

Track workers are trained to work around it , and detrained passengers should stay on the train until they are told otherwise .
Downed OLE presents more of a danger because it has the potential to arc much further distances . You practically have to come into direct contact with live 3rd rail wheras 25kv OLE can arc some distance

Also, OLE only tends to blow over if it's the cheap rubbish that is used on the ECML - lessons have been learnt and you wouldn't expect to see that be reused in future schemes.

I dont recall any incidents of OLE blowing over recently , but there are plenty of incidents when an errant pan or a tree or other object brought into contact with the OLE during wind has brought the OLE down or caused it significant damage .

 

[Bromley boy]

a tree or other object brought into contact with the OLE

Including some balloons recently I seem to recall...

 

[fergusjbend]

I can see the nurse approaching with my medication now. We need to be willing to think differently otherwise all we do is keep repeating the same mistakes as before. We seem to be willing to spend about £100 billion on HS2 so the captains of industry and masters of the universe can get to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker. Why not spend that on making sure nurses, teachers and doctors can get to work instead?

Because replacement of the 3rd rail network with OHLE would only benefit London commuters for about one day a year and do absolutely nothing for the rest of the country who would have to forego improvements to their networks in order to pay for it.

 

[theironroad]

Because replacement of the 3rd rail network with OHLE would only benefit London commuters for about one day a year and do absolutely nothing for the rest of the country who would have to forego improvements to their networks in order to pay for it.

Probably means the government will sign it off next week lol

 

[Bald Rick]

When all things are taken into account, a railway with 25kvAC is much more reliable than a railway with 750vDC.

However, one question. If the money was available (and we're talking tens of billions), how exactly would you do it?

More to the point, would passnegers be willing to put up with lots of disruption over several years during conversion to save a few days disruption once every other winter?

 

[6Gman]

I can see the nurse approaching with my medication now. We need to be willing to think differently otherwise all we do is keep repeating the same mistakes as before. We seem to be willing to spend about £100 billion on HS2 so the captains of industry and masters of the universe can get to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker. Why not spend that on making sure nurses, teachers and doctors can get to work instead?

No we are not.

 

[mr_jrt]

It makes sense when the infrastructure is due for renewal anyway, and maybe before, if you can shuffle the assets with life left in them from viable areas to less cost-effective-to-covert areas whose equipment is life expired to make the most of them. Start at the extremities and work your way inward towards London, focussing on the mainlines, diesel islands, or self-contained well-used branches, i.e. the Brighton mainline from Brighton and Lewes to Three Bridges, then Three Bridges (or indeed, Horsham) to South (or East) Croydon, then East Grinsted and Uckfield to South Croydon. Likewise, Hastings to Ashford, Ramsgate to Ashford (via all routes), and Gravesend to Ramsgate. Then you just have to decide what to do with the Maidstone West Javelin services and the Javelins could potentially give up their 3rd rail shoes.