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Time to re-examine costs of safety?

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PupCuff

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It's fairly easy to say that safety is an opportunity for some compromise with the aim of reducing costs; the more difficult challenge is identifying what we actually mean by 'safety'.

Do we mean relaxing engineering standards for new rail vehicles (which may also have the effect of increasing maintenance requirements due to a poor quality product)?

Do we look at technical safety systems such as AWS, TPWS, etc (which tend to be good value for money when we stack the costs up against the benefits)?

Do we repeal rail safety legislation and just rely on general H&S law (rail specific safety legislation has the benefit of helping all rail businesses 'sing from the same hymn sheet')?

Do we cut safety management activity, such as accident investigations, audits, incident trend analysis, etc (which tend to nip small issues in the bud before they become bigger ones)?

Do we cut numbers of staff undertaking frontline roles with a safety responsibility, eg having trains self dispatch (those staff also provide value in security checks, customer service, and are gaining good experience to potentially move into management roles in due course)?

Do we change processes so that they can be 'less safe' to be approved (processes which tend to be put in place for a reason to reduce risk and save the cost of personal injury claims etc)?

I think there is plenty of scope to make things more efficient on the railway; from my point of view I would suggest that:

  • Too much weight is put by some parts of the industry on the opinion of people who are not qualified to make safety management decisions in matters of safety, leading to processes which aren't as efficient as they could be because someone's claimed that it isn't safe and everyone has gone with that without proper assessment.
  • Embedding safety at a high level saves money overall through a reduced cost in claims, reactive changes to procedures and processes, additional staffing as a control measure, incident investigations etc.
  • Rather than looking at the concept of safety as a thing to cut, find 'things' in the industry which you think are inefficient and say, how can I make this better? Then work safety into that revised process.
  • Where changes are introduced, unions and rail companies need to work with each other not against each other. Silly demands like three guards per train or threats to make all conductors redundant are unhelpful. 'X' is what we want to achieve, what can each side do to make this a reality?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Silly demands like three guards per train

The requirement for more than one driver/guard per guarded train, and bans on "unit hopping" of said guard, are an example of wasteful overstaffing. Plenty of TOCs operate, or have operated, non-corridor trains with one guard (or even none). The one requirement I'd put in place for those trains (which some TOCs don't even have on trains operated in that way, e.g. LNR's single-guard 12-car 319 formations) is a passcom that allows a passenger to speak to the driver rather than just stop the train, so a walk along the ballast is not necessary to find out what the problem is.

TOCs may of course choose to double-staff trains for reasons of revenue protection, and that's up to them. But one driver and one guard is adequately safe on any UK passenger train.
 

geoffk

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Not fear of prosecution - Actual prosecution as per this incident (Network Rail fined £135,000 over fence which led to serious burns for boy, 13 - BBC News):

And this one - Not NR in this case (Birtley rail firm fined £2.7m after boy electrocuted - BBC News):

So it is not surprising that the railway has to spend huge sums maintaining fences, even though in many, if not most, cases, the damage to fencing has been caused by the local population, not the railway.
Yes I read about those incidents but the fact remains that other railway systems in Europe are unfenced and I doubt that trains are brought to a halt because of trespassers on the line (assuming there is such an offence). Different laws you will say and I guess there's just no appetite to change the law here.
 

zwk500

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Yes I read about those incidents but the fact remains that other railway systems in Europe are unfenced and I doubt that trains are brought to a halt because of trespassers on the line (assuming there is such an offence). Different laws you will say and I guess there's just no appetite to change the law here.
Remember that the UK laws requiring fencing are for the benefit of the landowner, not the railway. I suspect that if other European lines are aware of trespassers they follow the same protocol as GB - proceed at caution and stop if you see something. The advantage unfenced lines have is that the trespasser can usually get off the line easily, so the caution can be lifted quickly.
Nobody is going to instruct a driver to drive into somebody.
 

Ken H

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Remember that the UK laws requiring fencing are for the benefit of the landowner, not the railway. I suspect that if other European lines are aware of trespassers they follow the same protocol as GB - proceed at caution and stop if you see something. The advantage unfenced lines have is that the trespasser can usually get off the line easily, so the caution can be lifted quickly.
Nobody is going to instruct a driver to drive into somebody.
They could fit cow-catchers! :)
 

jfowkes

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To what extent are safety features and regulations actually responsible for high prices to end users on the railway?

I don't know about freight, but I imagine for passengers that high ticket costs are due to a combination of regulated fare increases and high demand, more than any pressure from safety costs.
 

zwk500

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They could fit cow-catchers! :)

To what extent are safety features and regulations actually responsible for high prices to end users on the railway?

I don't know about freight, but I imagine for passengers that high ticket costs are due to a combination of regulated fare increases and high demand, more than any pressure from safety costs.
That question depends on what you consider rail fares to actually be paying for (given they don't cover the cost of operating the railway let alone investing in it) and how you allocate costs in e.g. staff training specifically to the safety regime.
 

Annetts key

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Most types of fencing, if not deliberately damaged, last for a long time. So the overall cost per year is not that high. Also the vast majority of fencing is in the countryside alongside farmers fields.

What has affected the cost, is the goalposts having been moved. Now the railways are expected to put up fencing that is more resistant to people deliberately trying to trespass. Hence the cost of fencing in urban areas is now rather more expensive than in the past.

When compared to the road network, this is the opposite. Motorways and dual carriageways have safety fencing. But most urban roads do not (apart from at some junctions).

One final point. Although not immediately obvious, better safety normally leads to a more reliable service. Just looking at fencing, if the fences are well maintained, it’s far less likely that trains will be delayed due to animals or trespassers on the line…

This connection between safety and safety systems and reliability occurs all over the place.
 

XAM2175

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What has affected the cost, is the goalposts having been moved. Now the railways are expected to put up fencing that is more resistant to people deliberately trying to trespass. Hence the cost of fencing in urban areas is now rather more expensive than in the past.
I was definitely taken aback by the nature (and proliferation) of NR's palisade fencing when I first saw it. In Australia lines are mostly all fenced too, but usually only with chain-link even in cities. Out in open country it's mostly livestock-style.
 
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