TIR for using the ticket my partner purchased me!

[WedjCr]

Hello fellow travellers!

I hope you can help as I'm a bit lost with this one.

On the 12th of this month I had to attend an old property —one I had recently moved out of— to get newly issued bank cards (bank has yet to update my new address). I had no way of purchasing a ticket myself, as my cards were cancelled at the bank. My partner graciously offered to purchase a ticket for me (no rail cards required), which she did, and then proceeded to send me the e-ticket (itinerary, receipt and QR codes etc).

Edit before anyone asks, my partner was in work at Manchester so couldn't give me cash.

Upon arriving at my destination at the destination at the correct time, I was stopped and given a TIR!!. Apparently purchasing someone else a ticket and sending them it via email is strictly forbidden (transferring? or something?) But obviously it is completely legal on something like Trainline.com See:https://support.thetrainline.com/en...00477-how-do-i-buy-a-ticket-for-someone-else-

How do I buy a ticket for someone else?​

• etickets – forward the email to the traveller who can open the e-ticket attachment on their phone or print off a paper copy.

But, alas, it was the Northern app and so it was northern rules.

The questions to anyone who cares to answer are as follows:

1. Will I likely receive (or even worse HER!!!) a criminal offence for this? Honestly we had no idea. I know, I know... ignorance is not a defence! But the operator was payed in full and a single bum occupied a single seat. So this is not purely about protecting revenue, which they demonstrably didn't lose.
2. I'm leaving the country for business at the end of July and not returning until September! And that is the most concerning of all. In fact I'm very very worried about it. I don't want to appear like I'm avoiding a response etc. And have some warrant issued for my arrest!

Does anyone have any ideas? Should I hire a solicitor to handle this for me whilst I'm away? Can I even nominate a solicitor to handle all my affairs in my absence?

Thanks everyone!

 

[DaveB10780]

That is most odd, I buy tickets for family members with a variety of train companies and wouldn't expect a problem at all with this.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum.

Can you spell out the sequence of events a little more for us? In principle, there is no problem with using a ticket that someone else has bought; it's permitted to buy tickets on behalf of others and even to transfer or sell them (for no more than their cost).

Were you able to present the ticket, and if so, how did you do this (a PDF of the e-ticket, or in the app perhaps)? Could you upload a screenshot of what you showed, with any barcode, reference numbers or other personally identifying details redacted?

Did the ticket have a discount, such as a Railcard, applied? If so, were you able to prove your eligibility for this discount?

What kind of ticket was it, and what train did you travel on (from, to, time, and ideally operator if you know this)?

You refer to a TIP - I'm presuming you mean a TIR or Ticket Irregularity Report. Were you given any paperwork or did you sign anything - and if so, would you be able to again upload a redacted picture of this?

If you can provide us with these details, we should be able to establish what the issue is and how best you can deal with it now.

You shouldn't panic, although equally it's good that you are considering how to deal with things whilst you're going away. There is no chance that a warrant would go out for your arrest over this sort of issue, or certainly not within the space of a few months.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Transfer of tickets, provided they are not sold for more than face value, is now explicitly permitted. However it has always been permitted to purchase a ticket on someone else's behalf and pass it to them.

However, Watershed's questions might highlight something else a bit wrong, so I'd suggest answering those and we can help further. I don't think they have missed anything.

 

[WedjCr]

Of course!

Actually, you may be very surprised to hear it is not allowed and most certainly forbidden by Northern (if purchased via the northern app). I'm terribly lazy and I never read ANY of these terms and conditions but do have a look at this.

Mobile tickets are non-transferable.

We, the train operating company and the ticket inspector reserve the right to refuse to accept your ticket to the extent that it is unsatisfactorily displayed or to the extent that we or they have reason to suspect that a fraudulent use of booking confirmation, transfer to a different person, or other abuse or reproductions, copies or counterfeits of any ticket are in circulation.

See: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/booking-service-terms-conditions

Now, I'm clearly no lawyer, but they look both iron clad and quite final. But like I said, completely fine if you purchase via Trainline.

• My partner purchased a ticket for me to leave Liverpool to Warrington on the 14th!!!! Not the 12th. My mistake: See: attached redacted TIR. 17:51 -> 18:18? Or close to it. There's no discounts or anything special attached. Just a standard adult ticket. It was valid for travel.
  
  
• She sent me the e-ticket email and I added to my Apple Wallet, and took a screen shot of the itinerary, receipt AND of course the included QR codes for good measure.
  
  
• I left Liverpool without a hitch... The QR worked a treat, as one would imagine
  
  
• However, upon arrival in Warrington the revenues chap(?) asked to see a ticket (it failed on the barrier FYI) and I showed him the email and screenshot etc. He attempted to scan the QR and then let me know the bad news. He asked "Did you buy this ticket?" I said, "No, my..." And then he cut me off and said well that's not allowed on Northernrail and then proceeded to take my details.In the typical fashion?
  
  
• You can't use tickets in that fashion. To be fair, he was very polite, and there was no escalation. I thought I'd be issued a fine (for what I don't know, I've never have a TIR before)
  
  
• Upon my return, I purchased my own ticket (with my new debit card for safe measure) I then asked the Northern conductor AND a chap at the station at Liverpool if I was indeed liable, and they both said absolutely. It's a big no no to travel on someone else's e-ticket. And by the way, this ticket was purchased 10-15 mins before travel, it wasn't used by her, should anyone think that.
  
  
• The thing is called a Travel Incident Report. Unfortunately it contains no alleged crime, just the legal jargon "We will review the facts and we may prosecute" and so on.

One more detail that could be relevant.

For those not familiar with that particular station layout, there exists an accessible barrier to the right for wheel chairs, bikes, prams etc. Due to the queues I was asked to go in that lane, and I didn't scan using the standard scanner. I used, what looked like some homemade, white box looking thing. It looked very DIY. It actually looked mobile, as the loss prevention people (5 of them) were asking multiple people to use it. Maybe that machine has wider capabilities? I am unsure!

 

[Haywain]

Information about the ticket is very important here. Were you sent a pdf of the ticket, or just screenshots of the barcode? Or was it a ticket that could only be shown properly within the Northern app?

 

[furlong]

As Watershed asks, please upload a copy of the actual ticket you showed redacting personal details and barcode - we want to see the details - itinerary, stations, type, date & time, price etc. to see if we can understand why it didn't open the barrier. Different formats of ticket can have different restrictions and we can only guess which type you might have been using because of the trouble it caused you.

 

[Adam Williams]

The section of terms about mobile tickets (m-Tickets) is not relevant here, if you were able to be forwarded the ticket via email/add to Apple Wallet then it was an E-Ticket. It has to have been!

 

[Watershed]

Of course!

Actually, you may be very surprised to hear it is not allowed and most certainly forbidden by Northern (if purchased via the northern app). I'm terribly lazy and I never read ANY of these terms and conditions but do have a look at this.

Unfortunately, I think we have all been guilty of this at one time or another! That being said, transferring tickets has been explicitly allowed under the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) for some years now - see condition 5:

5.1 A Ticket may be transferred by the person who bought that Ticket to another person, but only if:

5.1.1 the Ticket has not been made out in the passenger's name (which includes where the passenger is identified by a designated Railcard, photocard or other identifying means); and​

5.1.2 the journey has not begun (for example, if you intend to transfer a return Ticket you must not have used the outward portion of that return Ticket, or if you intend to transfer a Season Ticket you must not have used it for any journeys already); and​

5.1.3 the transfer is not a resale for more than the price paid for the Ticket by the person who first purchased it from a Train Company or a Licensed Retailer.​

From what you have described, it sounds like these conditions for transferring a ticket were met - although I would still want to see the ticket to be sure of this.

The NRCoT further state that:

Please note that neither a Train Company’s staff, nor a Licensed Retailer’s staff has the authority to waive or change the Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to do so within the Conditions.

...and so, as there is nothing in condition 5 which gives Licensed Retailers the authority to restrict tickets from being transferred, anything in Northern's terms that purports to restrict the ability to transfer tickets is of no effect.

Furthermore, I don't see that Northern's terms actually try to bar the transfer of tickets (the reference to this seems to me to be outdated) - if there were any intention to do so, it would have to be far more explicitly spelled out.

There's a final issue to note here, which is that it's always been permitted to buy a ticket on behalf of someone else - in so doing, you're acting as their agent, and so there's no transfer in the first place. This was why it was legal to buy tickets for other people even before transfers began being allowed under condition 5.

She sent me the e-ticket email and I added to my Apple Wallet, and took a screen shot of the itinerary, receipt AND of course the included QR codes for good measure.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, it would be useful if you could just upload a redacted screenshot of what it was that you used at the barriers and showed to the Northern staff at Warrington.

However, upon arrival in Warrington the revenues chap(?) asked to see a ticket (it failed on the barrier FYI) and I showed him the email and screenshot etc. He attempted to scan the QR and then let me know the bad news. He asked "Did you buy this ticket?" I said, "No, my..." And then he cut me off and said well that's not allowed on Northernrail and then proceeded to take my details.In the typical fashion?

Unfortunately it sounds like the member of staff got this completely wrong; I'm not sure where he got the idea that buying tickets for other people isn't permitted (it always has been). But once we have the screenshot of your ticket we can confirm the next steps you should take

 

[furlong]

The section of terms about mobile tickets (m-Tickets) is not relevant here, if you were able to be forwarded the ticket via email/add to Apple Wallet then it was an E-Ticket. It has to have been!

Except we've already had one change to some of the information provided - it wasn't presented at a barrier but (presumably) to one of the new devices they did a press release about a few months ago. They might be a bit over-enthusiastic about their powers of detection.

 

[kkong]

I used, what looked like some homemade, white box looking thing. It looked very DIY.

Was it one of these devices?

 

[WedjCr]

Was it one of these devices?

View attachment 139249

YES! That was the chap!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm wondering now if there's a possibility that the OP's friend purchased the ticket, send it to them, then refunded it without telling the OP?

That could make some sense with regard to the line of questioning, i.e.

"Did you purchase the ticket?"
<OP says yes, hypothetically>
"OK, well, this says it was refunded, did you press the refund button?"

Obviously if the OP said no, as they did, there would be no sense in pursuing that line of discussion becaues they couldn't have refunded it themselves!

The ticket below otherwise appears to me to be valid for what the OP did.

 

[WedjCr]

Of course. Well then I understand about the terms set forth in the NRCoT.

I'm just confused how 3 separate Northern representatives (or to lower that bar significantly, people who are employed, conductor, loss prevention officer) seem to disagree?

I'm wondering now if there's a possibility that the OP's friend purchased the ticket, send it to them, then refunded it without telling the OP?

That could make some sense with regard to the line of questioning, i.e.

"Did you purchase the ticket?"
<OP says yes, hypothetically>
"OK, well, this says it was refunded, did you press the refund button?"

Obviously if the OP said no, as they did, there would be no sense in pursuing that line of discussion becaues they couldn't have refunded it themselves!

She isn't my friend, she is my partner of 10 years, and most certainly did not refund anything, that I am beyond sure. The agent in question did see the email from Northern and would most certainly have seen her name and NOT mine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You will want to obscure the barcode and the code starting TT* because those could be used to identify you.

 

[kkong]

The Warrington to Liverpool ticket uploaded is a day return.

Is this the new ticket you bought at Warrington, or the return half of the ticket your friend bought for you?

As I assume you would only have required a single to get back from Warrington to Liverpool after the incident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could conceivably be used to identify the person who bought the ticket, but not the OP.

True, but they certainly could be used to identify the case, i.e. for the TOC to pick up that the OP has been seeking advice here. Might similarly be worth obscuring the time of the TIR.

 

[Adam Williams]

You will want to obscure the barcode and the code starting TT* because those could be used to identify you.

Given you saw it before it got deleted, what sort of ticket was it? An actual E-Ticket?

 

[kkong]

Given you saw it before it got deleted, what sort of ticket was it? An actual E-Ticket?

Yes, it appears to be a Trainline (TT) e-ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given you saw it before it got deleted, what sort of ticket was it? An actual E-Ticket?

It was the Apple Wallet view of a correctly dated adult e-ticket Off Peak Day Return from Liverpool Stns to Warrington Stns without Railcard (return half was shown, though outward would be relevant to this TIR), which so far as I could see would have been totally valid for the journey under discussion.

Only reasons I can think of that it wouldn't scan would be:
1. The wrong half was shown (in which case the OP would presumably just be asked for the correct half so I doubt it).
2. The ticket had been refunded, which the OP seems adamant was not the case (and it'd be a bit pointless because it costs less than the £10 admin fee).

 

[WedjCr]

Yes this was an e-ticket! Is it just possible that the new technology, as they dub it the "ticket polygraph" can detect things and they are trying things out? Maybe this is just very advanced technology and they want to put the hammer down?

 

[Adam Williams]

they dub it the "ticket polygraph" can detect things and they are trying things out? Maybe this is just very advanced technology and they want to put the hammer down?

I wouldn't read too much into the nonsense that went into that press release. Northern appear to have some very bored marketing people with nothing better to do with their time.

My understanding is that these T-Val kits only exist because the gate manufacturers are too incompetent/too smart (given they can probably charge an absolute ton for it!) to add proper software support to the gateline barcode scanners for flagging up/alerting on specific discount status codes. Hence, ttk got in on the revenue protection act with a dedicated device.

 

[WedjCr]

I think it is worth noting that the team of 4... possibly 5, caught at-least 8 people in the space of 15 mins. And from the looks of it, they were very well presentable bunch of your typical commuters. (but I suppose that means very little in this day and age) — I have no idea what those were stopped for/

 

[Adam Williams]

This is a very strange case. It'll be interesting to read what's put down in writing in a letter, if one is sent.

 

[WedjCr]

Anyway, I thank everyone here for this. Some good advice but ultimately I have to side with the 3 employees of Northern (it's probably safer to assume they might know more).

I think the only thing that remains is what should I do about my work travel? I am still very worried correspondence on a potential criminal matter would be delayed. I could ask my partner to open my mail (illegal In the UK) and then relay the contents to me. But I fear I wouldn't be able to provide much of defence out of country. Is there anything you would suggest in this matter? Or simple seek legal advice?

 

[skyhigh]

Some good advice but ultimately I have to side with the 3 employees of Northern (it's probably safer to assume they might know more).

I don't think it is!

 

[Adam Williams]

Some good advice but ultimately I have to side with the 3 employees of Northern (it's probably safer to assume they might know more).

Perhaps there's information that will become apparent in due course that might change my mind, but with the facts presented as they have been above, I am not siding with the Northern employees and I would happily advise the customers I interact with on a daily basis that they can freely transfer their E-Tickets in the way described.

TOC staff aren't infallible, as countless threads here have demonstrated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it is!

Well, quite. My experience of the railway states rather the opposite at times!

What isn't allowed is transferring half a return ticket. I wonder if they perhaps thought incorrectly that that had been done?

 

[WedjCr]

There is absolutely an unused return ticket. I didn't use it for obvious reasons. Once I got my new bank cards, I simply purchased a ticket on my device and I used trainline for that! No issues there.

My partner has her own dedicated season ticket, as purchased through her work. There's very little reason for her to use the one she sent, not that she could have, without some type of teleportation device.

 

[furlong]

So none of us has spotted anything wrong. Was it scanned precisely once at Liverpool - shortly before the time of the train shown on the itinerary - and then not again until that magic box was used?

Ticketing rules are complicated and change in contradictory ways from time-to-time and this means not only passengers but staff can get themselves confused.