TOC running for West Midlands franchise

[Simon11]

The Department for Transport has today (7 April 2016) announced the train companies that are in the running for the next West Midlands franchise competition.

Three companies have been successfully shortlisted for the competition after submitting an expression of interest.

The shortlisted bidders are:

London and West Midlands Railway Ltd, a subsidiary of Govia Ltd (a joint venture between Keolis and Go-Ahead Group)
West Midlands Trains Ltd, currently a wholly owned subsidiary of Abellio Transport Group Ltd with East Japan Railway Company and Mitsui & Co Ltd as minority partners
MTR Corporation (West Midlands) Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of MTR Corporation (UK) Ltd

Hmm, the list is rather interesting with a new company getting involved in franchising. Is this the first time we have had a recent major franchise bidding without First or Arriva groups?

 

[OwlMan]

Is this MTR the same company that is the partnet of DB in LOROL?

 

[cactustwirly]

Is this MTR the same company that is the partnet of DB in LOROL?

Yes, they also run Crossrail

 

[Cherry_Picker]

MTR were one of Chiltern's parent companies during the early days when they were run by M40 trains (basically Adrian Shooter) and Laing. DB bought Laing about five years ago, I'm not sure what that did for MTR's interest. It's all kinda relevant because there is usually speculation about linking the companies who run trains through the Snow Hill lines together. If it happens then there might be some more interesting services from Marylebone through to Worcestershire beyond the handful of trains which currently make it to Kidderminster.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Or indeed stagecoach, but with their stake in the Virgin opperation and local/megabus opperations throught the area the CC would have them for breakfast

similarly Ariva with Northern, XC, Chilton, Overground and bus opperations. Absense of First is interesting though

 

[greatkingrat]

I think you might be getting confused with LOROL, I'm fairly sure MTR have never had anything to do with Chiltern.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hmm, the list is rather interesting with a new company getting involved in franchising. Is this the first time we have had a recent major franchise bidding without First or Arriva groups?

East Japan/Mitsui are also involved with Alstom in a shortlisted bid for the Merseyrail replacement rolling stock (the competition is being run by Merseytravel rather than DfT).
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...n-merseyrail-train-replacement-shortlist.html

 

[MrB]

MTR run Crossrail and have also been involved with LOROL.

 

[HLE]

Interesting.

Is this for the current franchise in its present state though?

Rumours are rife that they may well be split into 2 parts.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting.

Is this for the current franchise in its present state though?

Rumours are rife that they may well be split into 2 parts.

One operator will do both parts under 2 brands. Similar to when Arriva Trains Northern operated TPE services, alongside local Yorkshire/North East services.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Absence of First is interesting though

Internal rumblings suggest First have overstretched themselves with new TPE franchise.

Of course its all rumour and heresay tho, theres still much fallout from the "management restructure" that has seen several decent managers disposed of while obscure and meaningless posts have been advertised recently.

 

[tbtc]

Or indeed stagecoach, but with their stake in the Virgin opperation and local/megabus opperations throught the area the CC would have them for breakfast

similarly Ariva with Northern, XC, Chilton, Overground and bus opperations

If there are such competition concerns then how come Stagecoach are involved in the ECML/ MML/ WCML franchises, the three main long distance TOCs going north from London (as well as running Megabus services on parallel motorways)?

Why are First one of the two bidders for the South Western franchise, if having an adjacent TOC is a barrier?

If local bus operations around Birmingham were a barrier to operating local trains in the West Midlands then how come National Express got the original Central Trains franchise?

Talking of buses, how come Arriva operate the Wales & Borders franchise, since they operate a significant number of the buses in Wales and the Borderlands (outside the M4 corridor)?

We keep seeing comments like "Company A already operate Franchise X so won't be allowed to operate Franchise Y" but the reality never seems to back that up.

Interesting that the only comment that the Competition people seemed to have about Stagecoach being involved in the three main TOCs from London - the north of England - Scotland was a little local issue around Grantham (despite all of the "monopoly" stuff I've read on here).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Internal rumblings suggest First have overstretched themselves with new TPE franchise.

Of course its all rumour and heresay tho, theres still much fallout from the "management restructure" that has seen several decent managers disposed of while obscure and meaningless posts have been advertised recently.

I wouldn't be surprised, if First sat this one out, since they've recently taken on the TPE franchise and are bidding for the South Western one - given the costs involved, its understandable that companies don't bid for everything.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I understand it, all the "passport holders" are eligible to bid for any franchise.
If they submit an expression of interest in a specific franchise, they get on DfT's "long list".
DfT can then pick the few they think will offer the best bids.
First might not have gone for it, or DfT might have thought they were busy enough with GWR, TPE and the SW and East Anglia bids.
Ditto Arriva with Northern.

The ITT for South Western is due this month, and the next EOI is for West Coast in June.
The East Anglia franchise award is also due in June, which should clarify how busy Abellio (and Stagecoach) are going to be.

 

[grumblingalong]

The East Anglia franchise award is also due in June, which should clarify how busy Abellio (and Stagecoach) are going to be.

Just Abellio these days, Stagecoach pulled out of the joint bid.

 

[FordFocus]

Would have thought there could be competition issues with Arriva if they were shortlisted for the West Midlands franchise. Chiltern along the Snow Hill Lines and CrossCountry on the routes out of New Street.

 

[PHILIPE]

Here's the link for the London Midland Franchise renewal:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124390

 

[ChrisHogan]

If local bus operations around Birmingham were a barrier to operating local trains in the West Midlands then how come National Express got the original Central Trains franchise?

Because Centro took revenue risk for CTL's services in the West Midlands. When MMC investigated us in 1998, the only competitive overlap was Birmingham to Water Orton. Scotrail went through the same process and NX was required to sell Citylink.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would have thought there could be competition issues with Arriva if they were shortlisted for the West Midlands franchise. Chiltern along the Snow Hill Lines and CrossCountry on the routes out of New Street.

Arriva already runs all services with 2 franchises on Banbury-Leamington (CH, XC) and Sheffield-Leeds (Northern, XC - bar a couple of EM)
And coming up with Northern: Chester-Warrington (ATW/ARN)

But ATW, Chiltern and XC are all coming up for re-bid over the next few years.
I doubt the CMA has any problems with this.

Nobody worries about one monopoly franchise between, say, Birmingham and Lichfield, or Birmingham and Hereford.
It's how franchises work (between competitive rebids).

 

[The Ham]

Arriva already runs all services with 2 franchises on Banbury-Leamington (CH, XC) and Sheffield-Leeds (Northern, XC - bar a couple of EM)
And coming up with Northern: Chester-Warrington (ATW/ARN)

But ATW, Chiltern and XC are all coming up for re-bid over the next few years.
I doubt the CMA has any problems with this.

Nobody worries about one monopoly franchise between, say, Birmingham and Lichfield, or Birmingham and Hereford.
It's how franchises work (between competitive rebids).

The reason that monopolies are frowned upon has a lot to do with one company being able to hike the prices to what they like, given that rail prices are regulated by the government (at least the highest price chargeable) then there is little problem with there being no "competition" between different companies if one runs lots/all the rail services.

Where I live in there is one bus route (Stagecoach) and one train line (run by a Stagecoach franchise), no one complains that they are run by the same company. As the bus fares are more than the train tickets and the bus runs once per hour while the train runs twice per hour it means that the only reason you use the bus is if you travel for free on the buses or you aren't going as far as the next station.

 

[TheKnightWho]

MTR run Crossrail and have also been involved with LOROL.

Presumably this is the MTR of Hong Kong, who run the metro there?

 

[hwl]

Presumably this is the MTR of Hong Kong, who run the metro there?

Yes and also some services in Stockholm

 

[Masboroughlad]

I hope we will see that divide between commuter and long distance services made much more distinct. No reason why they shouldn't have intercity style stock for the longer runs and hopefully, bring catering back.

Remember being on a course in Liverpool once and a tutor had come up from the South East. He couldn't quite understand why a long distance, intercity service between two of the biggest cities (Birmingham and Liverpool) in England had commuter trains!

 

[Clarence Yard]

First might not have gone for it.

The word on the tracks is just that. There are enough competitions about to allow the big players to sit out a few, especially if they have just taken over one or they are in the mix for other big franchise awards.

 

[thenorthern]

This is almost identical to the bidders in 2012 except the Abellio (then NedRailways) was a joint venture with Serco. MTR pulled out of the bidding though.

The West Midlands Franchise seems to be an unpopular one for companies to bid for as for the past 2 franchises National Express, Stagecoach, Arriva and First haven't put a bid in.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This is almost identical to the bidders in 2012 except the Abellio (then NedRailways) was a joint venture with Serco. MTR pulled out of the bidding though.

The West Midlands Franchise seems to be an unpopular one for companies to bid for as for the past 2 franchises National Express, Stagecoach, Arriva and First haven't put a bid in.

Frankly , there is no real money in it....(in the sense of just providing a decent service , with few "commercial" options.) - I use the Cross City line to SLY every now andthen , and find it overall , quite decent.

 

[ChrisHogan]

The West Midlands Franchise seems to be an unpopular one for companies to bid for as for the past 2 franchises National Express, Stagecoach, Arriva and First haven't put a bid in.

The Central Trains franchise was unprofitable for NX from 1998 until the franchise was renegotiated in 2003. The LM franchise has been unprofitable for Govia for much of the last eight years (presumably being recouped now with the new Direct Award contract).

 

[3141]

This is almost identical to the bidders in 2012 except the Abellio (then NedRailways) was a joint venture with Serco. MTR pulled out of the bidding though.

The West Midlands Franchise seems to be an unpopular one for companies to bid for as for the past 2 franchises National Express, Stagecoach, Arriva and First haven't put a bid in.

My recollection is that in 2006/07 (I think that was when the previous bidding for West Midlands took place) NX were going for East Midlands, which consisted on Midland Mainline and parts of Central, both of which they'd been running; and they may have been after Cross Country too, though I don't remember precisely. Stagecoach went after East Midlands (obviously).

There was a magazine interview with Keith Ludeman who was CEO of Go Ahead at the time, in which he said that he'd been happy to let the likes of NX, Stagecoach and First tear into each other while Go Ahead + Keolis got the franchise they really wanted.

Was there another competition for West Midlands in 2012?

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think any bidder at that time was allowed to bid for all three of East Midlands, West Midlands and Cross Country.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Was there another competition for West Midlands in 2012?

No. 1997 franchise to NX for 7 years later renegotiated and extended to 2007.
2007 franchise to Govia after remapping.
Direct award to Govia last year for about 18 months to October 2017.

 

[HH]

I don't think any bidder at that time was allowed to bid for all three of East Midlands, West Midlands and Cross Country.

First went for XCountry and East Midlands. I think most bidders thought that WM was the runt of the litter...