• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TOCs' Complaints Responses

Status
Not open for further replies.

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,717
This evening I made a complaint to LM via Twitter about this ludicrously misleading poster found at MKC (note that it doesn't say Monday-Friday, and consider what effect that might have). Let's see whether they get removed or corrected. I'm betting they won't.

While I'm not going to check the sat&sun timings as I'm sure you have, I agree that this poster is incredibly misleading if the weekend departures are earlier than 0134

I'd imagine the ASA might be interested as well.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,717
To be fair to Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper I've never had anything other than properly considered and written responses from them when I've had cause to get in touch.

The only real farce I had was a few years ago when I emailed Scotrail to praise the actions of a particular member of staff. I heard nothing for ages, and to be honest I wasn't too concerned. Eventually I got a letter from them apologising that I had cause for complaint (I hadn't complained) and for the delay in their reply...

Well Scotrail have managed to charge me for tickets that they said they couldn't issue last Friday (3/2) and despite a phonecall and email to their customer services I've received no resolution.

My credit card company have now frozen the transactions.

Unfortunately, I've also had issues with ticket office staff at Liverpool street station this evening regarding staff travel and Oyster so I'm in a state of despair and I'm a railway employee......go figure....
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,756
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
While I'm not going to check the sat&sun timings as I'm sure you have, I agree that this poster is incredibly misleading if the weekend departures are earlier than 0134

I'd imagine the ASA might be interested as well.

On a Saturday night/Sunday morning it's 0015. There is a later "service" at 0200 which is a replacement bus from Watford but it's near-useless as you get to MKC not an awfully long time before the first train of the day - this might get them off the hook on a technicality of a bus being a virtual train or the LO train that operates it under contract to LM still being a train, but it is definitely dubious to have that poster at MKC even if it might be correct on a technicality.

They didn't reply to my Tweet so I will poke them again.
 
Last edited:

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
It's the same in most areas, due to automated software as much as anything. If a real person looks at a complaint, it is only to OK the computer response.

Each industry is different.

Most complaints received by a train company do not need individually tailored responses. Many of them are about standard issues (eg. why don't you run longer trains, why not more trains, why are they regularly a couple of minutes late in the morning peak?) for which a pre-planned standard response would provide people with sufficient explanation and would therefore suffice. Given the volume of complaints an average TOC receives, how much do you think is going to cost if each and every single one of the complaints requires a personalised detailed reply? Let's just use a rough figure of, say, 30 minutes per reply, and I am being very generous here. Comparing a train company the size of GTR with a fridge supplier is neither here nor there. They are simply not comparable. Wrexham & Shropshire or Grand Central would be a much more relevant comparison.

A good company is one who trains its staff to properly recognise when an issue needs escalating, and knowing who to escalate it too, so it doesn't waste time sitting in the system while being passed from person to person. Escalating a complaint unnecessarily wastes everyone's time at a big cost to the business. Given how tight finances are at most TOCs, it pays to avoid this happening too often. This also applies to all functions at the business, but primarily at Customer Service who are the ones with access to the bank of standard responses.

I am currently looking into some potential changes to the timetable in response to a customer complaint about a particular connection being regularly missed. This is following an escalation from Customer Service who wanted to find out the punctuality figures for this particular service, and then forwarded to me by my colleague who felt that improvements may be possible to give a better customer experience in the future. These are the issues that genuinely need a tailored response. I am not prepared to be sitting here typing up 20 responses to questions on why we could not simply run more trains everyday, when a standard response will more than suffice, especially when people cannot be specific about which service(s) they are having problems with.

There are some TOCs who do it well, and some who do it badly. Most of the time you will find that your experience depends on who the case-handler is, and what you will likely find is that your experience will vary, just like with any other company.
 

Expression357

Member
Joined
16 Jul 2009
Messages
82
Location
Essex
I'd add an aside.

Having seen some of the complaints that cross a TOCs CR team there does appear to be a complete overestimation on the part of the public as to what the CR team will provide on behalf of the company.

Some of this is caused by confusion over what is Open Access Data; and the scope of the FOI Legislation.

Some is caused by customers thinking that the TOC is obliged to spell out in full detail what is going to happen to a member of staff and what has happened to that member of staff as a result of the complaint.

In lots of cases words to the effect of "Thank you for your suggestion, we will pass it on to the relevant department for their consideration" is all that is appropriate.
 

LordCreed

Member
Joined
28 May 2014
Messages
426
I emailed Greater Anglia to see if they would post me a copy of their printed timetables so I could plan a trip easier. I was very surprised when the sent it special delivery by the end of the week! Seems a tad overkill and expensive though.
 

Blinder

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
53
Actually, thinking more on Delay Repay, to me it would make more sense that it would be handled by a national independent body, contracted out to an outsourcer if desired, who would simply check facts (you're either entitled or you are not, and the vast majority of cases are totally clear cut - the train was either N minutes late or it wasn't) and pay out where due, and bill back to the TOC with an admin fee to cover the cost of operating the service. Then TOC customer services could just deal with genuine complaints.

Such a body might also usefully be tasked with dealing with Penalty Fares appeals.


I have been waiting 5 weeks now for "delay repay" from GWR, which was send in the post. After a week I emails customer service, who said wait 10 - 15 days. If "customer service" had a automatic response on emails to say that "email received, expect xxxx days delay" at least you would know that your claim had been received.
 

rdeez

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2013
Messages
354
Only ever had cause to complain once (well, I only chose to complain once) a few years back - it was about the attitude of a member of staff.

Waited several weeks for a reply, which when it eventually came, was "Unfortunately the staff member does not recall the conversation".

I was not surprised after that much time had passed... :roll:
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,713
I think a fundamental mistake many TOCs make is outsourcing their complaimts handling. Of all their customer facing functions, knowing directly what is going wrong is surely important for any business.
 

Wombat

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2013
Messages
299
Many of them are about standard issues (eg. why don't you run longer trains, why not more trains, why are they regularly a couple of minutes late in the morning peak?)

Apologies if this comment constitutes a derailing of the conversation, but your third example has piqued my curiosity. My usual morning train (Epsom 07:52 - Waterloo 08:30) always arrives at Waterloo a few minutes late, unless it runs "fast" and misses out some of the stations en route. I've often wondered why the timetable isn't adjusted to reflect the observed reality, because 08:30 is more of an aspiration than an expectation. Might there be some operational or contractual reason?
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
2,940
Location
Blackley and Broughton/ Walsall South
I think a fundamental mistake many TOCs make is outsourcing their complaimts handling. Of all their customer facing functions, knowing directly what is going wrong is surely important for any business.
Completely agree with you there, I have to deal with the Carillion run northern `Customer Experience Centre`. I will tell you something, it is an experience every time I have to phone them, and not for the good reasons.
Sam
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Many of them are about standard issues (eg. why don't you run longer trains, why not more trains, why are they regularly a couple of minutes late in the morning peak?) for which a pre-planned standard response would provide people with sufficient explanation and would therefore suffice.

I've seen old Northern's standard responses for those kind of issues and many of them could have been better or better adapted. For instance, they told a number of people they'll getting x more carriages but don't yet know which lines or services would get them. To average Joe that sounds stupid as logically you decide how many additional carriages you need and which routes need them before you start acquiring more carriages.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Completely agree with you there, I have to deal with the Carillion run northern `Customer Experience Centre`. I will tell you something, it is an experience every time I have to phone them, and not for the good reasons.
Sam

Not sure how Carillion operates but I know some agencies have people dealing with multiple contracts so the person dealing answering the phone on behalf of a supermarket may have just taken a call on behalf of a boiler manufacturer!
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,424
Location
Isle of Man
bb21, I have no issue with standard responses from a template. In my job I use standard templates for common issues. That's not my problem.

My problem is TOCs that don't bother to read what one has said, and send stock responses that bear no relation to what I have actually complained about. It shouldn't be hard to filter complaints into appropriate work queues. Having to escalate anything other than a basic Delay Repay claim to Transport Focus is a waste of everyone's time.

London Midland used to be the worst at this, but Northern seem even worse thanks to their outsourcing.
 
Last edited:

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,233
My problem is TOCs that don't bother to read what one has said, and send stock responses that bear no relation to what I have actually complained about. It shouldn't be hard to filter complaints into appropriate work queues. Having to escalate anything other than a basic Delay Repay claim to Transport Focus is a waste of everyone's time.

An excellent VTWC example being supplied on this forum just one hour ago: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2883202#post2883202.

Much as I dislike Arriva XC as a travelling "experience", I find that their customer relations department responds to enquiries and suggestions quickly and with a proper understanding of the enquiry or suggestion. (I have never complained to XC, so cannot comment on how satisfactorily they handle complaints.)
 

joncombe

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2016
Messages
771
Only ever had cause to complain once (well, I only chose to complain once) a few years back - it was about the attitude of a member of staff.

Waited several weeks for a reply, which when it eventually came, was "Unfortunately the staff member does not recall the conversation".

I was not surprised after that much time had passed... :roll:

This does remind me of a case I had with East Coast trains a few years back. A delay just outside Grantham meant I (along with a number of other passengers) missed the connection onto the Skegness train. The next Skegness train did not go via Grantham so there was then a 2 hour delay. By the time I got to the station managers office there was already a lady in the same situation who was being told we just had to wait 2 hours for the next train and here are some buffet vouchers. She was adamant they should be providing a taxi in this situation (I was dubious).

When I got home I did check their passengers charter and it did actually say they would provide a taxi (I think if the delay was > 1 hour) if it would arrive earlier than the next train, which was obviously the case here. So I sent them an email pointing this out and asking why it was not done but was told they could not respond to me until I sent the tickets in by post. So I did that. 4 weeks later I got a reply that they had asked the station manager why but he could not remember because "it was so long ago".
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
Apologies if this comment constitutes a derailing of the conversation, but your third example has piqued my curiosity. My usual morning train (Epsom 07:52 - Waterloo 08:30) always arrives at Waterloo a few minutes late, unless it runs "fast" and misses out some of the stations en route. I've often wondered why the timetable isn't adjusted to reflect the observed reality, because 08:30 is more of an aspiration than an expectation. Might there be some operational or contractual reason?

Due to the congested nature of the slow line into Waterloo in the high peaks, it is always a bit tricky as a small delay to one of the trains can have a ripple effect for a long time unless some trains are cancelled (or shoved onto other tracks, in this case, the fast line) to release capacity. The same is true of any commuter route into a major London terminus.

Timetables cannot always be easily amended. There are maximum journey times stipulated in franchise agreements which the TOCs must not exceed. Most of these suburban services in the peak will likely be at their maximum allowed journey times anyway, so the DfT will simply turn around and say no if a request to extend the arrival time is submitted.
 

Great_Western

Member
Joined
18 May 2016
Messages
180
I actually work in a Customer Relations department, and I think that some of the critisim is slightly undue. Our office is full of aspirational people who want to progress within the TOC (and there are many opportunities to do so) and there are people of all ages. It is also supprisingly well paid and the job role is also quite varied and interesting.

I think you'd be suprrised by how much goes in to each complaint. Even if you do get a generic response, everything has had to be painstakingly logged against our system and the relevant emails sent to the relevant people. Generic responses are just there to cut down the time taken on each case (we currently have a massive backlog (still working cases from October) and a new system to deal with) but I can assure you that every relevant bit of information given by the customers is taken very seriously.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,468
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
I actually work in a Customer Relations department, and I think that some of the critisim is slightly undue. Our office is full of aspirational people who want to progress within the TOC (and there are many opportunities to do so) and there are people of all ages. It is also supprisingly well paid and the job role is also quite varied and interesting.

I think you'd be suprrised by how much goes in to each complaint. Even if you do get a generic response, everything has had to be painstakingly logged against our system and the relevant emails sent to the relevant people. Generic responses are just there to cut down the time taken on each case (we currently have a massive backlog (still working cases from October) and a new system to deal with) but I can assure you that every relevant bit of information given by the customers is taken very seriously.

See typos - 'nuf said!
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,424
Location
Isle of Man
Now now, there are any number of reasons why typos creep into posts on a forum. My posts are littered with typos when I'm using my phone. They aren't there when I'm at work, using a real keyboard and whatnot.

Neil Williams said:
And...LM are ignoring me. Quelle surprise.

I hope nobody ends up missing the last train because of this terrible piece of advertising.

To be fair, there are normally prominent posters at Euston saying when the last train is on a Saturday night, and people really should check these things. And for those who don't there is the 0200 Euston-Watford Junction and then rail replacement bus service northwards. It's not a trip I'd wish on my worst enemy- once to Hemel was quite enough for me- but it'll get you home.

But yes, London Midland are abysmal. IME they either ignore you or send you a sarcastic response back about why it's everyone else's fault but theirs. On balance, I think the silent treatment is more informative.
 

FOH

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2013
Messages
715
For the last complaint I made to Southern, the complaints team emailed me about 2 weeks later saying because it was a complex matter it would be escalated to another team to respond. Suffice to say that a year on no one has yet gotten back to me
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,468
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
Now now, there are any number of reasons why typos creep into posts on a forum. My posts are littered with typos when I'm using my phone. They aren't there when I'm at work, using a real keyboard and whatnot.



To be fair, there are normally prominent posters at Euston saying when the last train is on a Saturday night, and people really should check these things. And for those who don't there is the 0200 Euston-Watford Junction and then rail replacement bus service northwards. It's not a trip I'd wish on my worst enemy- once to Hemel was quite enough for me- but it'll get you home.

But yes, London Midland are abysmal. IME they either ignore you or send you a sarcastic response back about why it's everyone else's fault but theirs. On balance, I think the silent treatment is more informative.

Yes, and it's very annoying (not aimed at you personally!). I obviously don't pick up every little one (life's far too short), but there are some who seem to stab randomly at their 'phones and post the results, expecting us to unravel their messages! From someone employed in the communications sector (Customer Relations) I would hope for a natural attention to detail that would preclude multiple typos in one message, no matter what medium has been used.

Perhaps that is why so many of the responses I have received from TOCs have been so poor!
 

Great_Western

Member
Joined
18 May 2016
Messages
180
Yes, and it's very annoying (not aimed at you personally!). I obviously don't pick up every little one (life's far too short), but there are some who seem to stab randomly at their 'phones and post the results, expecting us to unravel their messages! From someone employed in the communications sector (Customer Relations) I would hope for a natural attention to detail that would preclude multiple typos in one message, no matter what medium has been used.

Perhaps that is why so many of the responses I have received from TOCs have been so poor!

I still dont see how its fair to judge my work by my posts on an online forurm. Whilst typing informally, on my phone, I should not be expected to have impeccable grammar. Whilst in work, everything I write is studiously checked and I conduct myself professionally
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,468
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
I still dont see how its fair to judge my work by my posts on an online forurm. Whilst typing informally, on my phone, I should not be expected to have impeccable grammar. Whilst in work, everything I write is studiously checked and I conduct myself professionally

I'm sure you do. My issue is with the sloppiness that seems to be inherent with 'phone messages. I do sometimes send them, but take the trouble to make sure they are correct, and don't send so many that I haven't the time to check them. Apart from anything else, I do this out of respect for the recipient.

BTW, I'm not claiming to be perfect here, but the standard of some messages is just atrocious, and I'm back, here, to replies from some TOCs.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,468
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
Just received a response from Southern to what must be my tenth complaint in five years that my annual season fails to operate the gates there, despite being valid from Dorking to London via Redhill and Epsom (two routes) including all intermediate stations (the normal regime, in other words).

They suggested I buy a new ticket or that the routeing (which I clearly set out for them in the latest complaint) may not allow use at East Croydon!

Pathetic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top