TOCs with no union recognition

[Zontar]

Anyone work as a driver for a TOC without union recognition? I was chatting with someone who is contemplating the move. It sounds ok and I'm interested myself, but the bit that worries me is no union recognition.
In a small outfit does it really matter that much?

 

[Peterthegreat]

If I was in an operational role I would be very wary. If you are involved in an incident you could be left to hang out and dry.

 

[Zontar]

If I was in an operational role I would be very wary. If you are involved in an incident you could be left to hang out and dry.

Very good point.

 

[16.19]

If I was in an operational role I would be very wary. If you are involved in an incident you could be left out to dry.

I wouldn’t say this is quite right. If you have an incident as a driver you have a responsibility to act accordingly to the rule book in the first instance. If you do the process correctly you’ll be back driving, perhaps on a plan, but back driving none the less.

Plenty of drivers who aren’t apart of the union have had multiple incidents and have been driving years.

 

[Goldfish62]

Union recognition is in respect of collective bargaining. Regardless of whether your employer recognises a union you are still entitled to full representation for disciplinaries etc if you are a union member.

 

[357]

I wouldn’t say this is quite right. If you have an incident as a driver you have a responsibility to act accordingly to the rule book in the first instance. If you do the process correctly you’ll be back driving, perhaps on a plan, but back driving none the less.

Plenty of drivers who aren’t apart of the union have had multiple incidents and have been driving years.

Unless your company are looking to get rid of people.

 

[EZJ]

I used to know a couple of drivers who weren't in the union(too much money for nothing back was the reasoning) One had problems at home and had been absent frequently the company were all set to get rid of him until the union went to a meeting with him and saved his job, the other had an incident and was removed from driving, the union again looked into it and found the investigating manager had a previous history with this driver which gave him an unfavourable view of him, the manager had also missed out key factors from the report and deliberately left out items from the download. Had it not been for the union the driver would have been out of a job. Pretty nice of ASLEF to help out non members. If you're a driver you need to be in the union it could one day save your job.

 

[12LDA28C]

I believe certain charter TOCs may not have union recognition, which may cause a conflict of interest when a driver who works full time at a franchised TOC or FOC does a bit of part-time work driving for said charter operator, although that may be considered off-topic.

Maybe starting part-time (if that's an option) might give you an idea what the company is like and sway your opinion one way or the other.

 

[Horizon22]

What TOCs are you thinking of? I don't think any traditional TOCs have no representation, so this must be a small affair. That is of course different to not being in a union.

Even if you're not in a union, you are still entitled to representation at for example, a disciplinary hearing. The TOC can't know who does and doesn't belong to a union so it is a blanket rule.

If I was in an operational role I would be very wary. If you are involved in an incident you could be left to hang out and dry.

Only if you were negligent in your operational role and had not followed agreed company policies, procedures and processes and had been shown to have had the relevant training on them. Union membership might help with the level of the punishment and better argument of the case with other resources to rely on, but you can easily get summarily dismissed if you really mess up (unlikely in all but the must extreme operational incidents), regards of whether you're in RMT/TSSA/ASLEF or not. And plenty have.

 

[43066]

Union recognition is in respect of collective bargaining. Regardless of whether your employer recognises a union you are still entitled to full representation for disciplinaries etc if you are a union member.

Yes indeed. I think union recognition by an employer can be compelled once membership reaches a certain threshold (10%?). There’s a fairly strong chance that OA operators will find themselves in this position as their drivers may well choose to join ASLEF, for example.

Only if you were negligent in your operational role and had not followed agreed company policies, procedures and processes and had been shown to have had the relevant training on them. Union membership might help with the level of the punishment and better argument of the case with other resources to rely on, but you can easily get summarily dismissed if you really mess up (unlikely in all but the must extreme operational incidents), regards of whether you're in RMT/TSSA/ASLEF or not. And plenty have.

This point is very well made, and one that’s often forgotten! The role of the union is very much to advise and ensure procedures are followed correctly, but membership is by no means a get out of jail free card. They said, the procedural advice and experience that can be brought to bear is well worth the membership subs for many.

 

[2L70]

Lumo?

 

[whoosh]

Lumo is the only one where ASLEF is not recognised I can think of at the moment.

ASLEF have tried but been knocked back on obtaining Lumo recognising them voluntarily.

Any company with more than 20 employees can be compelled to recognise a union, but the case has to go through some sort of arbiter. There is a proper procedure for it, but I'm not sure of the exact details.

I expect that might be on the 'next step' list for ASLEF at Lumo.


Something to think about...:
At wherever it is you are looking at, do you have any idea how many drivers are currently union members? Would you be adding to that figure and therefore giving weight to any case with an arbiter?

 

[43066]

ASLEF have tried but been knocked back on obtaining Lumo recognising them voluntarily.

Interesting to hear that.

If I was applying for a job there I’d certainly be drawing appropriate inferences from the fact the company is seemingly unwilling to engage with the major union representing drivers’ interests…

 

[the sniper]

Another factor with what must be a small operator could be, that if it goes under and none of the Drivers are in ASLEF, you won't have ASLEF trying to help to get the redundant drivers recruited promptly elsewhere.

 

[AntoniC]

I used to know a couple of drivers who weren't in the union(too much money for nothing back was the reasoning) One had problems at home and had been absent frequently the company were all set to get rid of him until the union went to a meeting with him and saved his job, the other had an incident and was removed from driving, the union again looked into it and found the investigating manager had a previous history with this driver which gave him an unfavourable view of him, the manager had also missed out key factors from the report and deliberately left out items from the download. Had it not been for the union the driver would have been out of a job. Pretty nice of ASLEF to help out non members. If you're a driver you need to be in the union it could one day save your job.

I am a PCS rep in the Civil Servant and will provide free advice to non-union members (obviously I can`t represent them in meetings) , I do so in the hope that they realise the benefits of being a Union member and join.

 

[Efini92]

Another factor with what must be a small operator could be, that if it goes under and none of the Drivers are in ASLEF, you won't have ASLEF trying to help to get the redundant drivers recruited promptly elsewhere.

That’s a very good point. You only have to look back a few years when DB we’re making 350 redundancies.

 

[dk1]

The thought of becoming a driver & not having any union recognition is something that is very alien to me & would be to +99% of colleagues. I would be very wary indeed.

 

[ainsworth74]

That’s a very good point. You only have to look back a few years when DB we’re making 350 redundancies.

Or thinking about a small operation, Wrexham and Shropshire going under.

 

[Efini92]

Or thinking about a small operation, Wrexham and Shropshire going under.

Yes and the grand central venture from Blackpool.

 

[357]

The "I do my job properly so don't need a union and will be ok" mob in this thread are gravely mistaken at the lengths management will go to in an effort to avoid them or the company taking blame or needing to make changes. The companies will always try and blame an individual member of staff at any cost.

In my own case I'd done everything right and only through my own confidence and experience did I get the case thrown out - but it reached the point where I was in a meeting and I could have walked out of that room without a job. Many said they would have taken their resignation offer, and many of my own colleagues thought they would sack me.

I have my reservations about some reps but you're always better off with than without.

Regards,

A former union rep, who had a trumped up case fabricated against me by a mainline TOC some years ago so that they didn't need to admit their own procedural shortcomings.

 

[Driver068]

Yes and the grand central venture from Blackpool.

And this is where ASLEF came in. I believe all drivers from the Blackpool depot got jobs else where

 

[DaveTM]

In *theory*, the rulebook is black and white and covers every case. If you c*ck up, the union will not be any help. If you just turn up every day and do your job properly you will never be under threat of being sacked. All in theory is good and rosy. But...

In *practice*, every day we are expected to do things that are borderline cases, or are not considered in the rulebook, or we have been given contradictory instructions on, and so on. If a driver makes what turns out to be the wrong decision and their company want to kick them out, the worth of the union to the individual becomes obvious. In practice there are a lot of areas that are grey, and the battle for your job will be won by whoever can afford the best lawyer. Your reps will know of similar situations that others have been in, will be able to highlight training issues across the company, will know what mitigating issues lie in your favour, etc.

It is the same in situations with medical or social issues. You may be fine now, able to turn up to work every day without fail, but life randomly throws up surprises. Relationship and childcare or geriatric parent problems outside of work causing an issue and company being difficult? Long term moderate health issues appearing out of the blue, like depression, IBS, PTSD, long COVID, etc? Difficulty recovering from a fatality? Cancer? Heart disease? Your company will never tell you what the best options available to *you* are, as it is in their interest to only tell you the one option that is best for *their* interests. However your union reps will know what is available and what reasonable considerations the company can and should make to help you work through it.

Before I joined the railway I spent 20 years in the software industry, where there is no unionisation. If my ability to drive were lost and I had to make another career change, my decision as to what to do next would now be strongly influenced by whether there would be collective representation of my interests in my new career. I am not currently looking to move between TOCs, but if I were, lack of union recognition would be a huge red flag against a potential move.

 

[185]

I could be wrong but someone in a mess room mentioned ROG may not have recognition.

 

[Efini92]

And this is where ASLEF came in. I believe all drivers from the Blackpool depot got jobs else where

Yes they all did. Some ended up at northern, some at XC, I believe one ended up at london overground.

 

[jettofab]

I wouldn’t say this is quite right. If you have an incident as a driver you have a responsibility to act accordingly to the rule book in the first instance. If you do the process correctly you’ll be back driving, perhaps on a plan, but back driving none the less.

Plenty of drivers who aren’t apart of the union have had multiple incidents and have been driving years.

A non union member having an incident at a TOC where most ARE in the union is possibly a different kettle of fish to a driver having an incident at a TOC that doesn't have union recognition though.

 

[DanNCL]

A TOC without union recognition? Sounds like the DFT's dream!

 

[RollingStock19]

Interesting to hear that.

If I was applying for a job there I’d certainly be drawing appropriate inferences from the fact the company is seemingly unwilling to engage with the major union representing drivers’ interests…

What part of that said the company was unwilling to engage? it was the drivers themself that decided to hang fire on recognition despite the majority of them being in ASLEF.
Also worth noting ASLEF didnt help things when their GS made a comment about the Peterborough incident on LUMOs MD twitter account (mainly because Im lead to believe the driver involved is an ASLEF member and had no help what so ever) the comment was also liked by a number of local BS's from ASLEF. I've been told it made a lot of the drivers wonder if having ASLEF recognition was for them if this is how they conduct themselves.

 

[Wrexhamfc]

Anyone work as a driver for a TOC without union recognition? I was chatting with someone who is contemplating the move. It sounds ok and I'm interested myself, but the bit that worries me is no union recognition.

In a small outfit does it really matter that much?

I'd be worried about having no Union Representation.

No Collective Bargaining. Nobody who knows y9our Terms and Conditions to represent you if you are the subject of accusations. The company would be able to do what it liked and if you don't like it, you'd have to find another Job.

GBRf started without union representation, perhaps you'd like to ask people with experience of GBRf whether they'd like to work there.

 

[43066]

What part of that said the company was unwilling to engage?

So, if they’re willing to engage, and the majority of drivers have chosen to become members, why won’t the company recognise the union? Why wouldn’t the drivers want them to? Something not adding up there.

If I was a prospective applicant for a driving job that would make me pause for thought.

Also worth noting ASLEF didnt help things when their GS made a comment about the Peterborough incident on LUMOs MD twitter account (mainly because Im lead to believe the driver involved is an ASLEF member and had no help what so ever) the comment was also liked by a number of local BS's from ASLEF. I've been told it made a lot of the drivers wonder if having ASLEF recognition was for them if this is how they conduct themselves.

I have no idea what was said there, can you link to it?

It seems odd that ASLEF would say anything in public about one of their own members having an operational incident.

A TOC without union recognition? Sounds like the DFT's dream!

It does, rather!

 

[RollingStock19]

I have no idea what was said there, can you link to it?

It seems odd that ASLEF would say anything in public about one of their own members having an operational incident.

And yet the GS did! and my mate tells me the Mick wasnt very apologetic about using the ASLEF member who had the incident as a pawn in having a go at Lumo for not being union recognised.

So, if they’re willing to engage, and the majority of drivers have chosen to become members, why won’t the company recognise the union? Why wouldn’t the drivers want them to? Something not adding up there.

The company did engage with ASLEF, it was up to the drivers if they wanted ASLEF to start the ball rolling, they decided to hang fire for now. It will probably happen in the future, just not right now. Maybe if the GS of ASLEF apologised to the member who had the incident it might help, it certainly hasnt gone down well thats for sure.