Todmorden Curve

[spongsdad]

I will offer one such suggestion. The monies spent from the successful bid monies could have spent on a new fleet of buses for the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service from Burnley to Manchester which should have been in the bid submission from the very start. This would have enabled the bid monies to be more actively used than what this disgraceful rail fiasco ever purported to achieve...and now we are notified in a posting on another thread on this website that all will eventually be offered in the form of rail traction is an elderly Class 142 raibus that will be released by the introduction of an elderly Class 319 unit somewhere else on the "Northern" circuit. Will this be an hourly rail service to compete against the 15-minute X43 bus service frequency.

Having listened carefully to Alex Hynes, the boss of Northern Rail, during his appearance on BBC Lancashire, I am persuaded that, in providing new buses on their Pendle Witch X43 service to Manchester as early as 2013, Transdev have overplayed their hand. By the time the direct rail service to Manchester gets going, it's a fair bet that it will be time to retire the buses

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Having listened carefully to Alex Hynes, the boss of Northern Rail, during his appearance on BBC Lancashire, I am persuaded that, in providing new buses on their Pendle Witch X43 service to Manchester as early as 2013, Transdev have overplayed their hand. By the time the direct rail service to Manchester gets going, it's a fair bet that it will be time to retire the buses

Are these buses to which you allude the latest fleet or the fleet that preceded that one ? You would not surely expect Alex Hynes to say anything to extol the values of the very modern buses that operate on a 15-minute timetable.

Of course, not having heard the BBC Lancashire programme, can I be assured that he would also have made mention of the DDA retirement possibilities of the ubiquitous Class 142 Pacer Railbuses that are already far older than many of the forum members of the RailUK website.

 

[spongsdad]

Are these buses to which you allude the latest fleet or the fleet that preceded that one ? You would not surely expect Alex Hynes to say anything to extol the values of the very modern buses that operate on a 15-minute timetable.

i thought i did irony quite well, but you are more than a match for me, Paul. As far as I remember, the buses were not mentioned, nor were those wonderful class 142s. Alex contented himself with the fact that "A train would be available" for the intended start of the service next May. He did say that all that remains is to complete the signalling and train the crews but that it would be unfair on Northern's passengers to disrupt Calder Valley services before Christmas. (Hence the Feb occupation). He had no answer to the leader of Burnley Council who asserted that the delay in start up was costing £1 million per month in lost revenue/opportunities.
My point about the buses was that, even after all that, Hynes still avoided a cast iron guarantee that services would start next May. The new buses may well be old by the time we get a service that isn't predicated on a cast off 142.
Really,you know, we should be eternally grateful for the crumbs that fall from the table of our dear leaders in the metropolis. It is churlish of us to moan all the time.

 

[Starmill]

FASTER trains could be running between Burnley and Manchester as soon as December 2013

Hmm.

I will believe this service is going to happen once I've ridden the damn thing right through!

 

[Signal Head]

i thought i did irony quite well, but you are more than a match for me, Paul. As far as I remember, the buses were not mentioned, nor were those wonderful class 142s. Alex contented himself with the fact that "A train would be available" for the intended start of the service next May.

Is that an unspoken adnission that they will not have a unit for December? In which case the incomplete infrastructure is totally irrelevant, the service couldn't run anyway, even if it were finished next weekend.

He did say that all that remains is to complete the signalling and train the crews but that it would be unfair on Northern's passengers to disrupt Calder Valley services before Christmas.

Again, this is a reasonable stance if they could not run because of lack of stock/driver training or whatever else Northern need to do, but no-one seems to be openly admitting to that.

Bearing in mind that Northern can influence the completion date by refusing the possession, is there perhaps an element of stage-management going on here, ie Northern block the commissioning until next year on spurious grounds, to avoid having the finger of blame pointing in their direction, as it shifts the focus onto the unfinished infrastructure?

It'll mean disruption whenever it's done, and I'd suggest that if a single weekend closure to commission this side of the Dec TT meant the service could start before Christmas, that's a price worth paying, so why are Northern so reluctant to allow it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bearing in mind that Northern can influence the completion date by refusing the possession, is there perhaps an element of stage-management going on here, ie Northern block the commissioning until next year on spurious grounds, to avoid having the finger of blame pointing in their direction, as it shifts the focus onto the unfinished infrastructure?

You say here in print what many others have thought for the last few months.

 

[northwichcat]

Are these buses to which you allude the latest fleet or the fleet that preceded that one ? You would not surely expect Alex Hynes to say anything to extol the values of the very modern buses that operate on a 15-minute timetable.

Say you live in Burnley and need to in central Manchester by 08:30 at the latest for work and can't catch a bus back before 17:15 then you need to catch the X43 bus at around 06:50 from Burnley and won't arrive back in Burnley until 18:45. I think the high frequency X43 bus at peak times will be meaningless once the rail service starts. However, the attractiveness of off-peak rail service is more questionable by the time some off-peak X43 services take just over an hour between Burnley and central Manchester compared to the peak time journey times of around 90 minutes and of course the over 60s will want to take the bus after 09:30 because it's free for them.

 

[The Planner]

Bearing in mind that Northern can influence the completion date by refusing the possession, is there perhaps an element of stage-management going on here, ie Northern block the commissioning until next year on spurious grounds, to avoid having the finger of blame pointing in their direction, as it shifts the focus onto the unfinished infrastructure?

It'll mean disruption whenever it's done, and I'd suggest that if a single weekend closure to commission this side of the Dec TT meant the service could start before Christmas, that's a price worth paying, so why are Northern so reluctant to allow it?

That can still backfire as NR could take them to an access dispute and still point the finger back. In terms of a late possession, they will be handsomely compensated as NR would get no discount on the compensation payments due to the timescales.

 

[158756]

Say you live in Burnley and need to in central Manchester by 08:30 at the latest for work and can't catch a bus back before 17:15 then you need to catch the X43 bus at around 06:50 from Burnley and won't arrive back in Burnley until 18:45. I think the high frequency X43 bus at peak times will be meaningless once the rail service starts. However, the attractiveness of off-peak rail service is more questionable by the time some off-peak X43 services take just over an hour between Burnley and central Manchester compared to the peak time journey times of around 90 minutes and of course the over 60s will want to take the bus after 09:30 because it's free for them.

Assuming there are no timetable changes before the Burnley service starts, the current Todmorden starter arrives at Victoria at 0831, so if you really needed 0830 you'd have to catch the previous service, leaving Burnley at 0630, and I wouldn't bet on there even being a train that early. It then departs at 1754, so the earliest you could get to Burnley would be 1850-ish.
Personally I'd much rather have an extra 20 minutes in bed and know that if the bus didn't turn up there'd be another 10 minutes later, rather than a train an hour later.

 

[Starmill]

Assuming there are no timetable changes before the Burnley service starts, the current Todmorden starter arrives at Victoria at 0831, so if you really needed 0830 you'd have to catch the previous service, leaving Burnley at 0630, and I wouldn't bet on there even being a train that early. It then departs at 1754, so the earliest you could get to Burnley would be 1850-ish.
Personally I'd much rather have an extra 20 minutes in bed and know that if the bus didn't turn up there'd be another 10 minutes later, rather than a train an hour later.

I agree with your general point, however I think the chances are that this service will start back from Burnley. Although possibly not Accrington and Blackburn.

 

[northwichcat]

Assuming there are no timetable changes before the Burnley service starts, the current Todmorden starter arrives at Victoria at 0831, so if you really needed 0830 you'd have to catch the previous service, leaving Burnley at 0630

Or catch the 07:12 to York and change at Hebden Bridge and arrive at 08:23. Southbound the journey times are OK with a change at Hebden Bridge - usually 65 minutes but northbound the connections are less good, especially late afternoon/early evening.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or catch the 07:12 to York and change at Hebden Bridge and arrive at 08:23. Southbound the journey times are OK with a change at Hebden Bridge - usually 65 minutes but northbound the connections are less good, especially late afternoon/early evening.

What are the cost implications of such a journey that you describe ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What are the cost implications of such a journey that you describe ?

Earlier in the thread, someone posted fares for the two existing routings (via Hebden Bridge/Blackburn), but as the new service is only hourly, tickets really ought to be valid direct or with a change. Whether they will be though, is another story... :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

What are the cost implications of such a journey that you describe ?

£9.60 off-peak return (departures after 08:59)
£12:00 anytime day return
£14.20 anytime return
£14.40 duo (departures after 08:59)

So normally Witchway is cheaper with the following exceptions:
* Where children are travelling after 08:59 (£6 on Witchway compared to £4.80)
* 16-25 Railcard holders travelling after 10:00 (£9.00 on Witchway compared to £6.30.)
* Where you have an even number of people travelling together after 08:59. (The equivalent of a Duo on Witchway is £15.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Earlier in the thread, someone posted fares for the two existing routings (via Hebden Bridge/Blackburn), but as the new service is only hourly, tickets really ought to be valid direct or with a change. Whether they will be though, is another story... :roll:

There are 3 types of tickets available currently: Route: Todmorden, Route: Preston and Route: Any Permitted.

 

[Starmill]

There are 3 types of tickets available currently: Route: Todmorden, Route: Preston and Route: Any Permitted.

I believe these are new. Route Via Todmorden I certainly haven't seen before, it has replaced the Hebden Bridge one.

 

[Deerfold]

£9.60 off-peak return (departures after 08:59)
£12:00 anytime day return
£14.20 anytime return
£14.40 duo (departures after 08:59)

So normally Witchway is cheaper with the following exceptions:
* Where children are travelling after 08:59 (£6 on Witchway compared to £4.80)
* 16-25 Railcard holders travelling after 10:00 (£9.00 on Witchway compared to £6.30.)
* Where you have an even number of people travelling together after 08:59. (The equivalent of a Duo on Witchway is £15.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There are 3 types of tickets available currently: Route: Todmorden, Route: Preston and Route: Any Permitted.

And of course the Witch Way fares include your connecting bus to Burnley if it's run by Burnley and Pendle.

Whilst the two person return is £15, for £18 you can take 4 people (max 2 adults).

Where is the Duo ticket? The only one I can see is Any Permitted route and more than individual off-peak fares via Todmorden.

 

[spongsdad]

I believe these are new. Route Via Todmorden I certainly haven't seen before, it has replaced the Hebden Bridge one.

I'm not sure when the change came about, but until several months ago, tickets from Burnley to Manchester permitted travel via both Hebden Bridge and Blackburn Bolton. The cheaper tickets, at least, now specify travel via Todmorden. For the time being the change of train is at Hebden Bridge. I wonder if this will still be allowed when (if) the new direct service starts up. Perhaps Burnley to Manchester passengers will prefer a change at HBD to a direct service on a Pacer

 

[northwichcat]

And of course the Witch Way fares include your connecting bus to Burnley if it's run by Burnley and Pendle.

In the same way if you get a connecting train service from Manchester then it'll be cheaper to use rail all the way.

For instance, Burnley to Eccles via Todmorden is £9.90 (off-peak). If you catch the bus and then use the train it comes to a total of £11.40 (off-peak.)

Where is the Duo ticket? The only one I can see is Any Permitted route and more than individual off-peak fares via Todmorden.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BYM&dest=MCV&grpd=0438&rte=381&tkt=FNW

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the same way if you get a connecting train service from Manchester then it'll be cheaper to use rail all the way.

For instance, Burnley to Eccles via Todmorden is £9.90 (off-peak). If you catch the bus and then use the train it comes to a total of £11.40 (off-peak.)



http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BYM&dest=MCV&grpd=0438&rte=381&tkt=FNW

It is all well and good to make reference to off-peak rail fares as in the vast majority of cases, people wishing to use rail to travel to employment in Manchester from Burnley will require to make a start at their places of employment at 0900, when off peak tickets will not be valid.

Making reference to off peak travel, was it not said earlier in the thread that the X43 buses running in the off peak period will make their journey far quicker than those in the peak travel to work period.

 

[Deerfold]

In the same way if you get a connecting train service from Manchester then it'll be cheaper to use rail all the way.

For instance, Burnley to Eccles via Todmorden is £9.90 (off-peak). If you catch the bus and then use the train it comes to a total of £11.40 (off-peak.)

A bus to the station and a train to work is a typical commute pattern. Commuting into and then out of Manchester, less typical. I've done both (Leeds, not Manchester) but more of my jobs involved the first type of commute.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BYM&dest=MCV&grpd=0438&rte=381&tkt=FNW

Ah - I was erroneously looking at fares from Burnley Central - which listed most of the fares via Todmorden (which is why I did not notice my error). But not that one.

 

[158756]

Or catch the 07:12 to York and change at Hebden Bridge and arrive at 08:23. Southbound the journey times are OK with a change at Hebden Bridge - usually 65 minutes but northbound the connections are less good, especially late afternoon/early evening.

If people were going to do that they would do it already. Neither Hebden Bridge's interchange estimates nor 2011 census data suggest much usage of these connections.
People know there isn't a direct rail link, they also know there is a fast-ish bus service. In my experience very few know that they could get the train via Hebden Bridge. At a guess if they're looking for a connection it'll be at Blackburn, which is slower than the bus off-peak.

 

[northwichcat]

If people were going to do that they would do it already. Neither Hebden Bridge's interchange estimates nor 2011 census data suggest much usage of these connections.
People know there isn't a direct rail link, they also know there is a fast-ish bus service. In my experience very few know that they could get the train via Hebden Bridge. At a guess if they're looking for a connection it'll be at Blackburn, which is slower than the bus off-peak.

On the Mid-Cheshire line we have two morning services which terminate at Stockport, instead of going to Manchester and two evening starts which start at Stockport. Those services are less popular than the direct services - people who work on flexitime probably work hours that fit around the direct services. However, some people do change at Stockport.

I imagine on the same basis people from Burnley would change at Hebden Bridge in one direction provided the connection time was short and they could get a suitably timed direct train in the other direction. Hopefully when Northern publish a timetable for Burnley-Manchester they show both the direct trains and the connection options and then over time I imagine Burnley-Manchester will finish up being similar to Northwich-Manchester in terms of usage. It certainly won't be an overnight change unless something happens which puts people off Witchway services like major roadworks or a low chance of getting a seat on the bus.

Do Jobseekers still get given railcards to use to get to interviews and training courses which gives 50% off fares? If they do then it could be a number of jobless people from Burnley get used to going to Manchester by train for interviews and then if they get a job offer the first method of getting to Manchester they think of is the train.

 

[Deerfold]

I imagine on the same basis people from Burnley would change at Hebden Bridge in one direction provided the connection time was short and they could get a suitably timed direct train in the other direction. Hopefully when Northern publish a timetable for Burnley-Manchester they show both the direct trains and the connection options and then over time I imagine Burnley-Manchester will finish up being similar to Northwich-Manchester in terms of usage.

Does Route:Todmorden still allow travel via Hebden Bridge?

 

[northwichcat]

Does Route:Todmorden still allow travel via Hebden Bridge?

According to Journey Planners - yes it only filters out journeys via Blackburn when you select it. It would be a bit stupid updating the restriction in to the system now if there aren't set to be any trains it's valid on until May 2015 considering changing at Hebden Bridge does mean you go via Todmorden.

 

[Deerfold]

Well, I can see it must allow it at the moment - I'm just wondering if it'll still be valid once there are direct trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Well, I can see it must allow it at the moment - I'm just wondering if it'll still be valid once there are direct trains.

If that was the case I can't see why they would have change Route:Hebden Bridge to Route:Todmorden now and have not introduced Routeirect only or similar when the new service is introduced.

 

[spongsdad]

Events over the last weekend are pointing to the inevitabllity of significant delays to phase 2 of the Northern Electrification Scheme and it now seems that the target date of Dec 2014 will be missed by a distance. It has even been suggested that the scheme will struggle to meet a completion date in time for the May 2015 timetable. All sorts of explanations-or excuses- are being put up; failure/unavailability of the wiring train, late planning applications & geological difficulties are three that come to mind. No doubt, all this will delay the trickle down of diesel units for the lower priority schemes.
It seems to me that long suffering commuters and other rail users of the North West have much to be disgruntled about, what with the recent decision to introduce an evening peak period, an upcoming 2.5% fare hike in January, hand me down rolling stock from that rather more prosperous part of the UK and delays to project implementation across the North West. Phsychologically, the fare increases before the new services are a very bad move indeed and will inevitably lead to further anger and alienation of passengers. It's not as though Northern enjoyed a wonderful reputation for reliability is it?
So do I expect to see services on Todmorden Curve in May 2015? I rather fancy I'll be hedging my bets on that one

 

[Hebden Bridger]

He did say that all that remains is to complete the signalling and train the crews but that it would be unfair on Northern's passengers to disrupt Calder Valley services before Christmas.

Having just looked at the CP5 delivery plan it seems that the Calder Valley services are going to be seeing quite a bit of disruption over the next few years.

(1) Line speed improvements (due as part of the Northern Hub) along with a package of other enhancements/renewals to be implemented between Jan and August 2016.
(2) Bradford Interchange capacity improvements - July 2016 to November 2017.
(3) Project (1) to enable sufficient capacity for use of the line for diversionary purposes during the electrification of the Stalybridge to Leeds line - to complete December 2018. Presumably Network Rail do not want a repetition of the situation during the last Stalybridge blockade when it was only possible to run 3tph between Manchester and Leeds due to a bottleneck between Rochdale and Todmorden - although it seems that the signalling work already carried out in May has lifted this to at least 4tph.

So three years of disruption. Perhaps the Tod Curve signalling can be scheduled as part of Project (1) to minimise disruption for long-suffering Calder Valley passengers? (Runs and hides very quickly)

 

[snowball]

Perhaps the three years' disruption will be followed by more as work begins to raise bridges for electrification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps the three years' disruption will be followed by more as work begins to raise bridges for electrification.

I assumed that electrification of the Calder Valley Line was scheduled for CP "when hell freezes over"....