Todmorden Curve

[northwichcat]

An update:

The 500 metre long Todmorden Curve, funded by
Lancashire County Council, has been built to re-instate a direct link
between the Manchester to Bradford and the Preston to Todmorden
routes. This will enable direct services to operate between Manchester
and Burnley (and beyond), and it is hoped that these will commence in
May 2015. As an interim step towards this, Wigan to Rochdale services
were extended to operate to Todmorden from May 2014. Work to
complete commissioning of the Todmorden Curve will take place on
Saturday 31 January and Sunday 1 February 2015. Buses will replace trains
between Hebden Bridge and Rochdale and between Hebden Bridge and
Burnley.

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...l_rail_service_performance_and_station_issues

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

An update:
http://www.transportforgreatermanch...l_rail_service_performance_and_station_issues

That reads as though Lancs CC (ie local taxpayers) paid for it all.
HMG actually forked out most of the cash for the construction work, from the Regional Growth Fund.

Interesting that TfGM/NR still can't be specific about the Farnworth closure dates.

 

[WatcherZero]

They funded the feasibility study, the funding also is what they've chosen to spend their own regional allocation on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They funded the feasibility study, the funding also is what they've chosen to spend their own regional allocation on.

Where has the rolling stock come from to run the service and what class of unit will be offered to prospective rail passengers?

 

[WatcherZero]

Units freed up by electrification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Units freed up by electrification.

What date has been confirmed for that said electrification to start ?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What date has been confirmed for that said electrification to start ?

Assuming you mean completion of the current works, rather than electrifying the Copy Pit route, by the end of the decade, definitely, but NR still holding out from publicly declaring in case they don't manage it.

 

[anti-pacer]

Forgive me if this question has been asked but I don't rather wish to trawl through hundreds of posts, but do you think this service will be well used?

Personally I only see it being of use to people from Burnley south-eastwards for journeys to Manchester.

Am I correct in presuming that this service will be all stops between Blackburn and Todmorden?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Am I correct in presuming that this service will be all stops between Blackburn and Todmorden?

Nope. See my reply on your other thread - I believe it's Burnley MR, Rose Grove, Accy and Church (SuO) only. I'm not sure why at all it would serve places like Hapton and Huncoat.

 

[anti-pacer]

Nope. Where did you get that from? See my reply on your other thread - I believe it's Burnley MR, Rose Grove, Accy and Church (SuO) only. I'm not sure why at all it would serve places like Hapton and Huncoat.

I just presumed. It wasn't based on anything. I just thought this would give all intermediate stations 2tph between Blackburn and Rose Grove.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I just presumed. It wasn't based on anything. I just thought this would give all intermediate stations 2tph between Blackburn and Rose Grove.

Yeah, sorry, edited my post as such just before as I realised you said presuming and not believing (as in someone had told you). Every intermediate station between Preston and Colne (bar Pleasington, Huncoat, Hapton and Barracks) could probably sustain a half-hourly service, I just doubt putting them onto the Manchester service (where applicable) would be the best way of doing it.

 

[anti-pacer]

Yeah, sorry, edited my post as such just before as I realised you said presuming and not believing (as in someone had told you). Every intermediate station between Preston and Colne (bar Pleasington, Huncoat, Hapton and Barracks) could probably sustain a half-hourly service, I just doubt putting them onto the Manchester service (where applicable) would be the best way of doing it.

Will it then provide 4tph between Todmorden and Manchester? I think there's currently 3tph IIRC.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Todmorden terminators (ex Kirkby off-peak) will be extended to Blackburn when the curve is complete. These are 'semi-fast' between Victoria and Todmorden, giving a time of c 55mins between Manchester and Burnley MR. The X43 bus takes 77 minutes but suffers from appalling timekeeping during the peaks due to congestion to and from the M62 / M66 at Whitefield. I can see the service being a success, but it would be better if it could run 'express' calling only at Todmorden and Rochdale.

 

[bluenoxid]

Forgive me if this question has been asked but I don't rather wish to trawl through hundreds of posts, but do you think this service will be well used?

Personally I only see it being of use to people from Burnley south-eastwards for journeys to Manchester.

Am I correct in presuming that this service will be all stops between Blackburn and Todmorden?

Tough to say really. The Blackburn to Manchester route is already quite congested so some may use it as an alternative. I'm hoping that the route may benefit from railheading although I dont know which stations will fulfil that role for car parking.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I remember residents in / users of Littleborough kicking off a while ago now that you mention it, so I'm presuming the plans way back when were for it to be Rochdale and Todmorden only. The terminators currently look to be all shacks bar Moston (that was dropped very recently, 2 years ago tops), so I don't really know what would happen.

 

[Starmill]

Will it then provide 4tph between Todmorden and Manchester? I think there's currently 3tph IIRC.

There are already 4. Three of which originate at Leeds (one via Brighouse, one Bradford semi-fast, one Bradford stopping) and the fourth which originates at present at Todmorden. It will be the trains which currently originate there that start back from Blackburn. This change has had a positive effect on the calder valley line timetable already, because it means the two Bradford trains can both run fast Manchester V - Rochdale - Todmorden. I think the Bradford trains are probably a higher priority for the fastest paths on this line.

 

[158756]

I can't see there being much use of the service.
Off-peak the car is far quicker and the bus cheaper and more comfortable/modern.
At peak times the car will probably still be quicker unless you live very close to a station(unfortunately in Burnley that means one of the ten most deprived areas in the country, so unlikely to be many rail users). In my (albeit limited) experience a sizeable portion of bus users at peak times are students, unlikely again to pay rail fares.

 

[anti-pacer]

I can't see there being much use of the service.
Off-peak the car is far quicker and the bus cheaper and more comfortable/modern.
At peak times the car will probably still be quicker unless you live very close to a station(unfortunately in Burnley that means one of the ten most deprived areas in the country, so unlikely to be many rail users). In my (albeit limited) experience a sizeable portion of bus users at peak times are students, unlikely again to pay rail fares.

Burnley does have some affluent areas and some of the surrounding villages around it.

With the limited, although in fairness growing, employment opportunities in the town, it is prime commuter territory with Manchester being one of the biggest magnets, so plenty of scope for rail users.

However, that said, I still think the pull of the X43, even in rush hour traffic will be too much for public transport users to move away from.

X43's in the peaks are up to every 10 minutes, using pretty new buses, partly using a motorway (better in the evening peak), and the choice of city centre drop off points in Manchester are better. Contrast that to a hourly train service using mostly 142/150's, with higher fares.

I think some may try the train, but I bet they'll be back to the bus pretty quickly.

 

[Sox]

The Todmorden terminators (ex Kirkby off-peak) will be extended to Blackburn when the curve is complete. These are 'semi-fast' between Victoria and Todmorden, giving a time of c 55mins between Manchester and Burnley MR. The X43 bus takes 77 minutes but suffers from appalling timekeeping during the peaks due to congestion to and from the M62 / M66 at Whitefield. I can see the service being a success, but it would be better if it could run 'express' calling only at Todmorden and Rochdale.

In my world, that will be 32 mins bursting for the toilet.

 

[anti-pacer]

In my world, that will be 32 mins bursting for the toilet.

It would be no different to using the new train service.

If it's a Pacer toilet it'll probably be out of action!

 

[Darren R]

There seems to be an awful lot of assumptions being made about rolling stock once the trains start making the climb over Copy Pit. As has been said several times, the new service is an extension of the current Todmorden terminators. Pacers are not common on these services at the moment, being mostly a mixture of 150s and 156s. I see no reason why this should change come May.

(Or December, or May 2016.... )

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would be no different to using the new train service.

If it's a Pacer toilet it'll probably be out of action!

It takes quite a lot to actually break a pacer toilet (no tanks, no buggy electric doors), but unfortunately not a lot to make them rather unpleasant!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I see the other thread got deleted where I laid out a few points on what I think will make the services successful:
- It's not just about Manchester, it also creates direct links between Rochdale and Blackburn and the intermediate points in between.
- It provides a useful secondary direct route from Blackburn to Manchester which will come in handy with any engineering closures that may block the line between Bolton and Manchester whilst it is juiced (a la Farnworth Tunnel), and saves any customers from Blackburn having to travel via Preston or Accy via Hebden Bridge.
- Though I realise X43 has quite a premium level of service, buses also served Alloa, Larkhall, Brighouse etc before rail reopenings affecting those towns: all three have still been resounding successes for the railway.

 

[anti-pacer]

I see the other thread got deleted where I laid out a few points on what I think will make the services successful:
- It's not just about Manchester, it also creates direct links between Rochdale and Blackburn and the intermediate points in between.
- It provides a useful secondary direct route from Blackburn to Manchester which will come in handy with any engineering closures that may block the line between Bolton and Manchester whilst it is juiced (a la Farnworth Tunnel), and saves any customers from Blackburn having to travel via Preston or Accy via Hebden Bridge.
- Though I realise X43 has quite a premium level of service, buses also served Alloa, Larkhall, Brighouse etc before rail reopenings affecting those towns: all three have still been resounding successes for the railway.

The only reason it got deleted was because I'd completely forgot about this thread.

Nothing personal old chap, just my memory becoming that of.... well, an "old chap"!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It provides a useful secondary direct route from Blackburn to Manchester which will come in handy with any engineering closures that may block the line between Bolton and Manchester whilst it is juiced (a la Farnworth Tunnel), and saves any customers from Blackburn having to travel via Preston or Accy via Hebden Bridge.

Whilst not offering an alternative bus route from Blackburn, but most certainly one from Accrington to Rochdale, that serves areas such as Baxenden, Haslingden, Rawtenstall, Bacup and Whitworth en route, the 464 bus service that has its terminus in the area of a number bus stops outside Accrington Covered Market has always been well patronised every time that I have travelled upon it in all its sections and runs to a 15 minute service frequency and a 30 minute service frequency on Sundays.

I understand that Accrington will be one of the timetabled stops on the proposed rail service to Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Todmorden terminators (ex Kirkby off-peak) will be extended to Blackburn when the curve is complete. These are 'semi-fast' between Victoria and Todmorden, giving a time of c 55mins between Manchester and Burnley MR. I can see the service being a success, but it would be better if it could run 'express' calling only at Todmorden and Rochdale.

So much therefore for the aspirations of any prospective rail passengers on this Blackburn to Manchester service from Accrington and from Burnley Manchester Road railway stations hoping to avail themselves of this rail service....:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Blackburn to Manchester route is already quite congested so some may use it as an alternative. I'm hoping that the route may benefit from railheading although I don't know which stations will fulfil that role for car parking.

Just thinking aloud in an idle moment at 0240, but now the problems that so affected the Holme tunnel on the Copy Pit Line have been finally resolved, is there now any plans in the Network Rail forward planner that will see the required infrastructural works carried out on the Sough tunnel on the Bolton to Blackburn Line?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What are the 'required' works? AFAIK it won't be touched and doesn't really need to be in the redoubling work at Darwen.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

What are the 'required' works? AFAIK it won't be touched and doesn't really need to be in the redoubling work at Darwen.

It is specifically not in the scope for the extension of the Darwen two track section as a) it's far too expensive and b) it introduces some very funny signal spacings.

If there was additional money then it would be better spent on sorting out the 10mph over Turton Crossing, extending the double track further beyond Bromley Cross and providing proper doubled connections at Blackburn Bolton / Bolton Branch Junctions; there is nothing wrong with single line sections on a railway with 2tph, provided the single line bits don't take longer than about 10 minutes to traverse (so shorter than 10 miles at 60mph with no stops or about 6 miles at 60mph with two stops).

This is the current problem with Darwen, as Bromley Cross to Darwen is a 7 mile single line section with a station call in it, but not 60mph throughout.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is the current problem with Darwen, as Bromley Cross to Darwen is a 7 mile single line section with a station call in it, but not 60mph throughout.

There you have it, so to say, in a "nutshell", from one of the most highly regarded members of this website.

 

[Starmill]

Pacers are not common on these services at the moment...

Au contraire!

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Pacers are Quite Common on Todmorden Terminators i've had 2 Myself today and two 150's 150222/5 and two Northern Bus Seated 142's