TPE franchise to move to OLR

[DanNCL]

If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

Who makes the decision to P code a service, and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?

I'd assume it's because they still think they're effective despite the fact that we all know what they're doing now.

 

[DanNCL]

I'd assume it's because they still think they're effective despite the fact that we all know what they're doing now.

And despite an ORR instruction to stop!

I can’t help thinking whichever manager is making the decision to P code services is unfit to hold their role. Ignoring an instruction from the ORR should be automatic grounds for dismissal.

 

[Kells21]

What does P code mean

 

[DanNCL]

What does P code mean

A P coded service is a cancelled train that is removed from the timetable at the last minute, usually 22:00 the night before, to avoid counting towards the official cancellation figures.

 

[Kells21]

A P coded service is a cancelled train that is removed from the timetable at the last minute, usually 22:00 the night before, to avoid counting towards the official cancellation figures.

Ta mate

 

[CAF397]

If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.

The day to day management team are still the same from last week when it was First Group ownership.

Until someone goes through the company with a brush and sweeps away those staff who have made TPE what it is today, then nothing will change.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

If only there were people on this thread who were telling everyone that OLR won't solve much, if anything...

 

[LYuen]

And despite an ORR instruction to stop!

I can’t help thinking whichever manager is making the decision to P code services is unfit to hold their role. Ignoring an instruction from the ORR should be automatic grounds for dismissal.

DfT pays the delay/cancellation repay. When the service is P code cancelled, the operator doesn't need to repay the relative delay when people take a later service as alternative.
Now OLR-TPE is also under DfT, so it is not a surprise they would abuse P code mechanism even more.

 

[43066]

If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

Who makes the decision to P code a service, and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?

At least nobody on here should be surprised at any of that, given what has been said on this thread.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If anyone was hoping for a magic improvement with the OLR takeover they’ll be massively disappointed today. Cancellations are the worst I’ve seen them for a long time, and P coding is carrying on too.
Hardly a surprise to me but some will have had a nasty shock this morning.

Who makes the decision to P code a service, and why do TPE do it at a much higher rate than the other TOCs?

But the grass is always greener on the other side…

 

[3RDGEN]

No one is expecting any improvement in the near future after 19 years of First Group running the service into the ground. First have gone so that's the first improvement we wanted to see and now years of rebuilding will be required with the disruption of the TRU to go along with it.

The service has been a shambles for years not just the last 18 months, in fact COVID saved First TPE as the service in the run up to it was a disaster zone but they got a 2 year period of lower demand / service requirement.

 

[43096]

The day to day management team are still the same from last week when it was First Group ownership.

Matthew Golton is no longer MD, unfortunately.

 

[DanNCL]

Until someone goes through the company with a brush and sweeps away those staff who have made TPE what it is today, then nothing will change.

The sooner that happens the better.

If only there were people on this thread who were telling everyone that OLR won't solve much, if anything...

At least nobody on here should be surprised at any of that, given what has been said on this thread.

Yes, quite.

DfT pays the delay/cancellation repay. When the service is P code cancelled, the operator doesn't need to repay the relative delay when people take a later service as alternative.
Now OLR-TPE is also under DfT, so it is not a surprise they would abuse P code mechanism even more.

None of the other OLR TOCs abuse the P coding mechanism to anywhere near the same level as TPE. LNER and Northern both use P coding but not to remotely the same scale.

The service has been a shambles for years not just the last 18 months, in fact COVID saved First TPE as the service in the run up to it was a disaster zone but they got a 2 year period of lower demand / service requirement.

On the Newcastle route at least TPE was generally reliable throughout 2019 and early 2020. There were two trains an hour between Newcastle and Manchester and both turned up reliably. It went down to hourly with the first lockdown but remained reliable. Things started to go downhill late 2021/early 2022 and went downhill rapidly.

 

[Krokodil]

And despite an ORR instruction to stop!

I can’t help thinking whichever manager is making the decision to P code services is unfit to hold their role. Ignoring an instruction from the ORR should be automatic grounds for dismissal.

At least the trains are staying on the boards now, and being listed as "cancelled" rather than just disappearing as if they had never existed, with passengers none the wiser.

If only there were people on this thread who were telling everyone that OLR won't solve much, if anything...

The official advice to the minister was the same too. But he decided that he needed to be seen to be doing something after the local election drubbing. "Something must be done! This is something, therefore we must do it"

 

[mike57]

On the Newcastle route at least TPE was generally reliable throughout 2019 and early 2020. There were two trains an hour between Newcastle and Manchester and both turned up reliably.

You were fortunate, on the Scarborough branch things went wrong in May 2018, and never recovered apart from the height of Covid lockdown. There were regular 3 hour gaps in what should be an hourly service during the period May 2018 - Mar 2020, and in one case a group of drunk people went on the rampage at Seamer station when stranded there for hours. Its no excuse for the behaviour, but it highlights the problems. I was travelling to the NW for the day once a week during this period and rarely managed a week without delay repay.

Whilst I can see that OLR taking over in itself will not solve the problems I think TPE had failed and needed to go. I am on acquaintance terms with a couple of now ex TPE staff and both were saying that back in 2018 that morale was at rock bottom which is why they left, and I dont believe anything has improved since then.

Hopefully things will go the same way as Northern where there has been some improvement since the OLR took over, no they are still far from perfect, but better than TPE.

 

[Killingworth]

Matthew Golton is no longer MD, unfortunately.

I can imagine Matthew Golton is quite relieved to get a break from TPE and stand back to take in air.

Chris Jackson is an able replacement. Whatever he can achieve may well rest on Matthew's incomplete workt, that's how management musical chairs operate.

Meanwhike I noted TPEs 3 car 185 13.08 arrival into Sheffield today fromi Liverpool was more lightly loaded than Northern's s 3 car 195 13.05 stopper from Piccadiilly.

Many on the stopper will have boarded at intermediate stations but it's noticeable that a lot are now opting for the slower, but more reliable Northern trains between the two city centres.

 

[CAF397]

I can imagine Matthew Golton is quite relieved to get a break from TPE and stand back to take in air.

Matthew Golton has transferred into the OLR, into an as yet announced role. But as we know it's not TPE.

 

[Killingworth]

Matthew Golton has transferred into the OLR, into an as yet announced role. But as we know it's not TPE.

Chris Jackson waa announced as seconded from Northern so not firmly in the long term saddle . Options remain open.

 

[Parjon]

No trains from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street at all for three hours this afternoon (there should have been 6).

Manchester-Liverpool is by order of magnitude the biggest intercity passenger flow in the north.

I think those two facts underline just how badly TPE is failing.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think those two facts underline just how badly TPE is failing.

Are TPE genuinely 'failing' or is it a case of them doing what they can, with the resources they have, using the tools at their disposal ?

It really does highlight when goodwill has evaporated and industrial relationships are their minimum, how important your staff are.

 

[Parjon]

Are TPE genuinely 'failing' or is it a case of them doing what they can,

Yes they are evidently failing. If it's the limit of what they can do, they are a lost cause.

 

[Killingworth]

No trains from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street at all for three hours this afternoon (there should have been 6).

Manchester-Liverpool is by order of magnitude the biggest intercity passenger flow in the north.

I think those two facts underline just how badly TPE is failing.

6 cancelled between Piccadilly and Liverpool on South Pennine today

 

[EZJ]

I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked. I've never seen Industrial relations so low as this in all my years in the job and currently a miracle is needed for all parties to moved forward to try and provide a decent service.

 

[43066]

I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked. I've never seen Industrial relations so low as this in all my years in the job and currently a miracle is needed for all parties to moved forward to try and provide a decent service.

Sorry to hear.

I’m pleased to say that where I am there is a feeling that management and staff are all in it together. Although of course the dispute is bad enough, even in that setting.

Clearly things at TPE are much worse than that. It sounds like a toxic environment and I can only imagine how bad it must be day in day out.

We can only hope for an improvement for the sake of everyone involved.

 

[josh-j]

Yes they are evidently failing. If it's the limit of what they can do, they are a lost cause.

Who is "they"? The government is pulling the strings. With a government that cares more about revenue extraction from a failed service than about proper public transport provision, the railways will be in a perpetual struggle. OLR makes more sense than First but don't anticipate much of a change from this one intervention alone. Mind you I hope it will help improve how staff are treated at the very least.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Are TPE genuinely 'failing' or is it a case of them doing what they can, with the resources they have, using the tools at their disposal ?

It really does highlight when goodwill has evaporated and industrial relationships are their minimum, how important your staff are.

Try telling our "leader of the year" that fact. Leaders are supposed to inspire, not dictate!

 

[tomuk]

Who is "they"? The government is pulling the strings. With a government that cares more about revenue extraction from a failed service than about proper public transport provision, the railways will be in a perpetual struggle. OLR makes more sense than First but don't anticipate much of a change from this one intervention alone. Mind you I hope it will help improve how staff are treated at the very least.

2015 to 2022 TPE has received over £610m of government subsidy. We will need to wait for an update in November for 2023. But even in the good years the franchise only paid the government £55m. So I'm not seeing the alledged revenue extraction.

 

[43066]

2015 to 2022 TPE has received over £610m of government subsidy. We will need to wait for an update in November for 2023. But even in the good years the franchise only paid the government £55m. So I'm not seeing the alledged revenue extraction.

You can split hairs about the wording, but the point being made is the government is still preventing the dispute being settled by blocking local negotiations (as with every other TOC). In TPE’s case it’s clear that there are also significant issues with local management and the way the staff are being treated, and a resulting lack of goodwill.

That’s why, unless and until something else changes, the move to OLR hasn’t and won’t make any significant improvement to the service.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think if those outside the company actually knew what going on and how the front line staff are being treated you would be genuinely shocked. I've never seen Industrial relations so low as this in all my years in the job and currently a miracle is needed for all parties to moved forward to try and provide a decent service.

Are you able to expand on this, it would be interesting to understand more about why things have got so bad there? Don't worry if you can't, I know these things can be sensitive.

For context, and before anyone accuses me of being anti-union (I'm not), from my own experiences toxic working environments can happen for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it comes from poor management, poor or changes to working practices, members of staff causing issues etc etc. In my field one of the most toxic working environments occurred when two parallel departments were put together and the different working practices and cultures clashed, leading to an insane power struggle not only amongst management but staff as well. In the end industrial relationships broke down left, right and centre and took years to try to resolve.