TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

[Watershed]

It may well be that there is scope for each set to go on the depot during the day with time for fuel and tanking.

If you look at the current diagrams, each of the three sets has at least 90 minutes idle and in some cases more than one long wait in Scarborough during the course of the day.
How that will change in December remains to be seen but I'd guess that, bearing in mind that you only need to service 2 sets for the first two departures each morning, servicing during the day could be an ongoing possibility.

There's no need for fuelling during the day, the diagrams are really quite low mileage.

So is the depot being closed, then? Shame it'll I guess mean local job losses.

There's a difference between not being used and being closed.

There is certainly still a need for stabling and fuelling capacity round those part; I am sure it will find a use.

 

[blackfive460]

There's no need for fuelling during the day, the diagrams are really quite low mileage.

Quite, but each of the three sets currently in use only returns to Longsight once every three days so I'd guess that fuelling while in Scarborough will be required at some point and, even if a 68 can do three days on a tank full, the coaches will certainly need tanking!

 

[Watershed]

Quite, but each of the three sets currently in use only returns to Longsight once every three days so I'd guess that fuelling while in Scarborough will be required at some point and, even if a 68 can do three days on a tank full, the coaches will certainly need tanking!

Unsurprisingly, this has been considered during the development of the upcoming diagram changes.

 

[SuperNova]

It may well be that there is scope for each set to go on the depot during the day with time for fuel and tanking.

If you look at the current diagrams, each of the three sets has at least 90 minutes idle and in some cases more than one long wait in Scarborough during the course of the day.
How that will change in December remains to be seen but I'd guess that, bearing in mind that you only need to service 2 sets for the first two departures each morning, servicing during the day could be an ongoing possibility.

This, alternatively the depot could also be used to service 185s potentially.

 

[JonathanH]

This, alternatively the depot could also be used to service 185s potentially.

What happens when a 185 ends up at Scarborough overnight covering for a 68+Mk5 at present? Does it go onto the depot for servicing or spend the night in the platforms?

 

[Watershed]

What happens when a 185 ends up at Scarborough overnight covering for a 68+Mk5 at present? Does it go onto the depot for servicing or spend the night in the platforms?

The depot is not currently able to service 185s. Among other things, the fuelling system is incompatible.

185s have a very high fuel range, nominally 1800 miles but in practice up to 2000 miles (albeit the CET tank will probably be full before that point). Scarborough diagrams are quite low mileage due to the long turnarounds, and the longest diagrams (which are on the Redcars) are no more than 900 miles a day. Even two of those back to back would still leave enough in the tank to get to a fuelling point.

I am quite sure the depot will not go to waste, it is just a question of how long it takes until it is put back into use (once the 68s stop using it).

 

[47827]

Definitely not planned to keep the Scarborough service as mostly York shuttles. But it's true to say there are sits in the daytime presently that could allow depot visits that are being skipped overnight.

Assuming it reverts to a mostly hourly Liverpool/Manchester timetable there's only scope for 45-50 mins turnaround on what the old diagrams were like. You'd have to have an extra set wasted at Scarborough to allow switches a couple of times for depot visits. It's not efficient. You would also need an extra 185 unit diagrammed somewhere on the mk5 routes to free up a set to be wasted in Scarborough through the day. Another option involves more operating hours, traincrew and keeping signal boxes open longer. Theoretically running the sets back to York or even more inefficient, back to Longsight. All due to ongoing noise complaints. It sounds like a plan is already in place for the near future so let's see what happens.

 

[blackfive460]

From May 2022 at least TPE do plan to revert to mainly running through to Liverpool from Scarborough.
The proposed timetables are available here.

It's interesting to note that the timetables include some peak hour extras running between York and Scarborough only.
I think we can take this to indicated that the long promised Northern hourly service between York and Scarborough is now finally dead and buried.

 

[IanXC]

It's interesting to note that the timetables include some peak hour extras running between York and Scarborough only.
I think we can take this to indicated that the long promised Northern hourly service between York and Scarborough is now finally dead and buried.

*Transferred to TPE

 

[47827]

I suppose it makes some sense if TPE have spare 185s they are keeping hold of and Scarborough can then always steal one if a mk5 set is failed or unavailable at the East Coast end. It will be interesting if these current (mostly mk5) shuttles last another year though as that's clearly not been a very temporary change, if so.

 

[blackfive460]

*Transferred to TPE

If that's from an official source in the public domain, a link would be useful.

Except the proposed Northern service was supposed to give us an extra hourly service right through the day.

While the extra capacity morning and afternoon will be welcome, what TPE are proposing looks more like something they can do to allow servicing at Scarborough during the day instead of overnight.
Time will tell...

 

[SuperNova]

If that's from an official source in the public domain, a link would be useful.

Except the proposed Northern service was supposed to give us an extra hourly service right through the day.

Given the patronage on the railway currently and the fact a 300 seat train is making an hourly journey on the route, I'm not sure there'll be any need for 2tph on the Scarborough branch throughout the day all year round.

 

[47827]

I'm not sure there'll be any need for 2tph on the Scarborough branch throughout the day all year round.

Given the numbers of people going to the seaside this year it would be handy on selected dates but the railway doesn't like to operate in the fashion these days as that means spare stock has to be kept for potentially less than 100 days a year.

 

[DB]

Given the numbers of people going to the seaside this year it would be handy on selected dates but the railway doesn't like to operate in the fashion these days as that means spare stock has to be kept for potentially less than 100 days a year.

That's been a problem on the Scarborough line for years, unfortunately. A 3-car 185 on the first off-peak of the day from Leeds was fine on a wet Tuesday in February, but on a summy Friday in August it very definitely wasn't! I don't expect a 5 car will be sufficient for long either, given the level of overcrowding. AN hourly service on that line is completely inadequate in the summer.

 

[SuperNova]

That's been a problem on the Scarborough line for years, unfortunately. A 3-car 185 on the first off-peak of the day from Leeds was fine on a wet Tuesday in February, but on a summy Friday in August it very definitely wasn't! I don't expect a 5 car will be sufficient for long either, given the level of overcrowding. AN hourly service on that line is completely inadequate in the summer.

In the summer being the operative term. Those changes will inevitably occur. TPE did have weekend extra services a few years ago, but delays in rolling stock in 2019 saw those services not run and then, the pandemic...

 

[blackfive460]

Given the patronage on the railway currently and the fact a 300 seat train is making an hourly journey on the route, I'm not sure there'll be any need for 2tph on the Scarborough branch throughout the day all year round.

You obviously didn't note that I've been referring to the proposed timetable for May 2022, not this year.
However, based on last summer when some trains were full and standing leaving Scarborough in the late afternoon, some extra capacity wouldn't go amiss.

 

[47827]

That's been a problem on the Scarborough line for years, unfortunately. A 3-car 185 on the first off-peak of the day from Leeds was fine on a wet Tuesday in February, but on a summy Friday in August it very definitely wasn't! I don't expect a 5 car will be sufficient for long either, given the level of overcrowding. AN hourly service on that line is completely inadequate in the summer.

I don't disagree. I just think there's a danger it could be somewhat worse this year and beyond while foreign travel is difficult or impossible to many areas.

 

[317 forever]

To paraphrase Ian Duncan Smith: The 68s are here to stay and they're turning up the volume!

Or to paraphrase Theresa May: 68 means 68, and we're going to make a success of it

 

[Philip]

Why do TPE use loco hauled sets on some of the Manchester Airport-Redcar services on Sundays, but not on Monday to Saturdays?

 

[JonathanH]

Why do TPE use loco hauled sets on some of the Manchester Airport-Redcar services on Sundays, but not on Monday to Saturdays?

They don't.

They are being used today between Manchester Airport / Victoria and Leeds because there is an engineering block between Leeds and York and there would usually be one Scarborough diagram that starts in Manchester and another that ends there so it might as well be used to shuttle between Manchester Airport and Leeds with the appropriate traincrew.

 

[RHolmes]

They don't.

They are being used today between Manchester Airport / Victoria and Leeds because there is an engineering block between Leeds and York and there would usually be one Scarborough diagram that starts in Manchester and another that ends there so it might as well be used to shuttle between Manchester Airport and Leeds with the appropriate traincrew.

Plus most of the Leeds to Liverpool services will be using 6 carriage class 185’s (from Ardwick from the Redcar allocation) as most of the 802 fleet is trapped north of Leeds and Liverpool crew sign them but not the class 68

 

[J-P_L]

Plus most of the Leeds to Liverpool services will be using 6 carriage class 185’s (from Ardwick from the Redcar allocation) as most of the 802 fleet is trapped north of Leeds and Liverpool crew sign them but not the class 68

No class 185s on the Leeds-Liverpool diagrams today (Sunday), all 802s with 10 car ECS moves between Doncaster to Leeds (this morning and tonight).

 

[Watershed]

Plus most of the Leeds to Liverpool services will be using 6 carriage class 185’s (from Ardwick from the Redcar allocation) as most of the 802 fleet is trapped north of Leeds and Liverpool crew sign them but not the class 68

All of the Leeds-Liverpool services are 802s today. Timings have been adjusted to give a shorter turnaround at Liverpool, allowing it to operate with 2 of the 4 802s stabled at Edge Hill, plus 2 802s that have come across from Doncaster via Wakefield, diverted into Leeds instead of York.

The all day 68 diagram is a happy accident, shall we say.

It's slightly different to yesterday.

 

[Nymanic]

Am I right in thinking that 12814 is the number of the additional DT?

Because I've just seen that attached to the rear of a Nova 3 set, headed by 68029. It appears testing is underway. Didn't get the set number, sadly.

 

[JonathanH]

Am I right in thinking that 12814 is the number of the additional DT?

Because I've just seen that attached to the rear of a Nova 3 set, headed by 68029. It appears testing is underway. Didn't get the set number, sadly.

12814 is formed in set TP02 - 12802 is at CAF in Newport as the spare.

So, yes 12814 is the additional DT in the order but it has taken the place of 12802 rather than being the designated spare.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

12814 is formed in set TP02 - 12802 is at CAF in Newport as the spare.

So, yes 12814 is the additional DT in the order but it has taken the place of 12802 rather than being the designated spare.

One would assume that the vehicle allocated as the "spare" will rotate periodically. Otherwise you'd end up with one vehicle with significantly lower mileage and wear which would screw up your maintenance regime.

 

[JonathanH]

One would assume that the vehicle allocated as the "spare" will rotate periodically. Otherwise you'd end up with one vehicle with significantly lower mileage and wear which would screw up your maintenance regime.

The spare DT might equally never be called upon. The best balance for the maintenance regimes between the sets would be achieved by not using it.

 

[Watershed]

One would assume that the vehicle allocated as the "spare" will rotate periodically. Otherwise you'd end up with one vehicle with significantly lower mileage and wear which would screw up your maintenance regime.

The spare DT is mainly there to ensure that a whole rake of coaches isn't put out of use for a long time if a DT needs repairs after a collision. The 350 'horse incident' was fresh in a lot of people's memories when the order was placed.

 

[SuperNova]

The spare DT is mainly there to ensure that a whole rake of coaches isn't put out of use for a long time if a DT needs repairs after a collision. The 350 'horse incident' was fresh in a lot of people's memories when the order was placed.

The 350 horse incident happened 2 years after the order was placed.

 

[Watershed]

The 350 horse incident happened 2 years after the order was placed.

Funny how the mind plays tricks! Either way, the 350 incident certainly wasn't the first one of its kind.