TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[19Gnasher69]

If only there was some additional stock available for TPE to use...

So the best bet is to aim for the xx15 departure from Leeds.

Or, perhaps more pertinently, if only there was a less negative management team, backed by a less blinkered government…..

Indeed, until everyone else cottons on. Then the whole TPE core will go back to the future with regular overcrowding on the Manchester-Leeds-York core, dissuading people from travelling by train. Presumably just as the government intends.

 

[3RDGEN]

If only there was some additional stock available for TPE to use...

So the best bet is to aim for the xx15 departure from Leeds.

Numerous TPE 802's sat spare as just 12 of 19(18) are now diagrammed and only 9 of them are on North TPE, presumably once they clear the training backlog more use of them can be made to reinstate 4tph York - Manchester. They could also get the 397's earning their keep too, the 185's get flogged to death at 90% availability yet the new stock gets an easy life at 67% availability, something wrong there.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Numerous TPE 802's sat spare as just 12 of 19(18) are now diagrammed and only 9 of them are on North TPE, presumably once they clear the training backlog more use of them can be made to reinstate 4tph York - Manchester. They could also get the 397's earning their keep too, the 185's get flogged to death at 90% availability yet the new stock gets an easy life at 67% availability, something wrong there.

So these need to be closer to 16/19 (18 currently) and free up some 185s to book 6-car on virtually everything. Rather see 3tph Leeds to Manchester off-peak but all 5 and 6 car, than cancellations and delays.

 

[DanNCL]

Some rough observations regards to 6 cars before the thread is closed!

State of play for the day in an easterly direction...

1Pxx Airport - Middlesbrough 15 trains ran, 9 were 6 cars
1Pxx Liverpool - Newcastle - 14 trains ran, all 800s
1Kxx Picc - Hull - 15 trains ran, 6 were 6 cars
1Bxx Liverpool - Cleethorpes - 15 trains ran 6 were 6 cars

Just for reference Newcastle can now only run with 802s. Furthest North you’ll find a 185 is Darlington.

Numerous TPE 802's sat spare as just 12 of 19(18) are now diagrammed and only 9 of them are on North TPE, presumably once they clear the training backlog more use of them can be made to reinstate 4tph York - Manchester. They could also get the 397's earning their keep too, the 185's get flogged to death at 90% availability yet the new stock gets an easy life at 67% availability, something wrong there.

So these need to be closer to 16/19 (18 currently) and free up some 185s to book 6-car on virtually everything. Rather see 3tph Leeds to Manchester off-peak but all 5 and 6 car, than cancellations and delays.

802 availability is poor as is availability for all of the various 80x fleets across the country. For TPE that’ll only get worse when they start heading to Eastleigh for crack repairs. 12 is a realistic number that they can rely on having operational each day. Diagramming 16 of them would be asking for trouble

 

[3RDGEN]

12 is a realistic number that they can rely on having operational each day. Diagramming 16 of them would be asking for trouble

12 of 19(18) is a joke, if that's all they can do then they need to shut up shop and go home. 15 from 19 with one on crack repairs is fair enough.

 

[DanNCL]

12 of 19(18) is a joke, if that's all they can do then they need to shut up shop and go home. 15 from 19 with one on crack repairs is fair enough.

It is a joke but it’s the same with all 80x fleets. The ever increasing 5 car short forms on the GWML are a good example of this. LNER are struggling too.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is a joke but it’s the same with all 80x fleets. The ever increasing 5 car short forms on the GWML are a good example of this. LNER are struggling too.

What is the reason for such poor availablity ?. If cracks does it indicate many are unusable (I mean one off to Eastleigh at a time for repairs does not indicate how many are queuing up for repairs) ?.

 

[DanNCL]

What is the reason for such poor availablity ?. If cracks does it indicate many are unusable (I mean one off to Eastleigh at a time for repairs does not indicate how many are queuing up for repairs) ?.

I don't know other than it isn't the cracks that are the main issue. All I know is that it's an issue across the 80x fleets and not just at TPE.
As far as I know none of the TPE units have cracks, or at least not sufficient enough to warrant taking them out of service anyway.

 

[Notabene]

It's called Hitachi maintenance. The Javelin fleet availability was known to be well below other fleets in 2008. Yet still the answer had to be Hitachi for IEP etc.

It's not turned out well.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's called Hitachi maintenance. The Javelin fleet availability was known to be well below other fleets in 2008. Yet still the answer had to be Hitachi for IEP etc.

It's not turned out well.

I wonder if there was a bit of a "but Japanese is good" mentality. At least most of the 80X fleets (all of those IETs) are on a supply contract so Hitachi will suffer financially. We are still paying top dollar for what does run though. I remember years ago it being said that the French would support their manufacturers more than we support ours (by being less critical with the availability figures). I bet Japan is the same as I wonder how many other countries are as "objective" as the UK.

 

[gaillark]

At least most of the 80X fleets (all of those IETs) are on a supply contract so Hitachi will suffer financially. We are still paying top dollar for what does run though.

I strongly suspect that Hitachi whilst taking some financial hit will still be quids in.
What is most likely in my opinion is that behind closed doors Hitachi will negoitate a case for more cash to be pumped in and it will be the UK taxpayer that will fund it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Shocked to find an 802 on my Scarborough train this morning. Didn't realise they were on that line so quickly.

I wonder if there was a bit of a "but Japanese is good" mentality. At least most of the 80X fleets (all of those IETs) are on a supply contract so Hitachi will suffer financially. We are still paying top dollar for what does run though. I remember years ago it being said that the French would support their manufacturers more than we support ours (by being less critical with the availability figures). I bet Japan is the same as I wonder how many other countries are as "objective" as the UK.

I certainly have a feeling that, well it's Japanese impressed some. These availability stats are appalling, and adds to the growing evidence that when it comes to reliability, new is not always better! Reading Roger Fords monthly new train watch shows that.

 

[JonathanH]

Shocked to find an 802 on my Scarborough train this morning. Didn't realise they were on that line so quickly.

It is only one diagram. Everything else to Scarborough is shown as a 3-car 185 except a pair on the 1801 Manchester Victoria to Scarborough and 2043 return, as fits with traincrew knowledge.

 

[BoroAndy]

It is only one diagram. Everything else to Scarborough is shown as a 3-car 185 except a pair on the 1801 Manchester Victoria to Scarborough and 2043 return, as fits with traincrew knowledge.

1801 turned around at 2043. That sounds tight.

 

[JonathanH]

1801 turned around at 2043. That sounds tight.

Nominally 38 minutes. Not particularly tight.

 

[Notabene]

The use of 5 car 802s doesn't align with the busiest trains.

Not all 802s are in service, either. 12 out of 18(19) as 3RDGEN said above.

Giving the stoppers to Northern can't come soon enough.

 

[sjpowermac]

The use of 5 car 802s doesn't align with the busiest trains.

Not all 802s are in service, either. 12 out of 18(19) as 3RDGEN said above.

Giving the stoppers to Northern can't come soon enough.

I don’t think the stoppers going to Northern will be the panacea that TPE are portraying it as.

TPE have not mentioned the Manchester-Huddersfield route, but that going to Northern would gain TPE two 3-car sets.

TPE have mentioned Leeds-Huddersfield which would similarly gain TPE two 3-car sets.

All of this assumes that Northern can spare some high performance units.

Demand has come back very strongly on Northern routes that are comparable to some of the TPE routes. I wonder how TPE will cope if a more reliable service leads to a similar increase in demand?

 

[RHolmes]

I don’t think the stoppers going to Northern will be the panacea that TPE are portraying it as.

TPE have not mentioned the Manchester-Huddersfield route, but that going to Northern would gain TPE two 3-car sets.

TPE have mentioned Leeds-Huddersfield which would similarly gain TPE two 3-car sets.

It won’t save any units if the aspirational hourly stopping Manchester to York via Wakefield comes into fruition, which will require four units total.

What it will relieve stress on is traincrew, particularly in terms of productive hours (not having depots travel to Leeds to work the stopper) and diversionary route knowledge issues, as the diversion had become a core route by running this service.

Only the Huddersfield to Leeds service is planned to return to Northern aspirationally on the Dec 2024 TT change. However further units may be released by frequency reductions of north route services due to the various TPRU closures planned, particularly when both Huddersfield and Thornhill Jn close

 

[sjpowermac]

It won’t save any units if the aspirational hourly stopping Manchester to York via Wakefield comes into fruition, which will require four units total.

What it will relieve stress on is traincrew, particularly in terms of productive hours (not having depots travel to Leeds to work the stopper) and diversionary route knowledge issues, as the diversion had become a core route by running this service.

Only the Huddersfield to Leeds service is planned to return to Northern aspirationally on the Dec 2024 TT change. However further units may be released by frequency reductions of north route services due to the various TPRU closures planned, particularly when both Huddersfield and Thornhill Jn close

So as I stated, not a panacea, just more smoke and mirrors.

 

[KevL]

So whens the morning 802 from scarbro please?

 

[JonathanH]

So whens the morning 802 from scarbro please?

0853, 1148 - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-802s.259112/#post-6535297

 

[D6700]

The use of 5 car 802s doesn't align with the busiest trains.

In fairness, it does work the 16:04 York to Scarborough, which is a very busy train, with a large number of school children travelling each day. I strongly suspect this is by luck, rather than judgement, though!

So as I stated, not a panacea, just more smoke and mirrors.

I believe there has been an attempt to offload the north of Newcastle services to another operator, despite TPE revelling in the publicity from the opening of East Linton yesterday!

https://mediacentre.tpexpress.co.uk...ish-welcome-at-opening-of-east-linton-station

To mark the historic opening, TPE renamed its first service to stop at the station, ‘Hailes Castle’, after the ruin of the nearby fortified manor dating back to the 1200s, associated with the Wars of Independence and Mary Queen of Scots.

Chris Jackson, Managing Director at TPE, said “This is a landmark day for East Linton and for TPE, and we’re really happy we’ve been able to work with our partners to help connect communities in Scotland.

 

[BoroAndy]

In fairness, it does work the 16:04 York to Scarborough, which is a very busy train, with a large number of school children travelling each day. I strongly suspect this is by luck, rather than judgement, though!


I believe there has been an attempt to offload the north of Newcastle services to another operator, despite TPE revelling in the publicity from the opening of East Linton yesterday!

https://mediacentre.tpexpress.co.uk...ish-welcome-at-opening-of-east-linton-station

From following timetable changes, is it likely that more 802s could move to the SCA-YRK route, along with more extending across the pennines from this route.

 

[sjpowermac]

From following timetable changes, is it likely that more 802s could move to the SCA-YRK route, along with more extending across the pennines from this route.

Not without training Scarborough conductors and drivers on Class 802. This would, of course, add to the training backlog.

There has been talk of Class 802s operating on the Hull route, but with TPE their plans seem to change more often than the weather.

I believe there has been an attempt to offload the north of Newcastle services to another operator, despite TPE revelling in the publicity from the opening of East Linton yesterday!

https://mediacentre.tpexpress.co.uk...ish-welcome-at-opening-of-east-linton-station

Yes, I had caught wind of that being the other ‘bold decision’. It will be interesting to see where the alternative rolling stock comes from for that.

The reality is that nothing seemed to matter other than binning off the Nova 3 sets.

 

[RHolmes]

Not without training Scarborough conductors and drivers on Class 802. This would, of course, add to the training backlog.

And Airport conductors

 

[coxxy]

And Airport conductors

And the majority of piccadilly drivers

 

[CAF397]

And the majority of piccadilly drivers

And the other link at York who previously signed 68s, but not 802s

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone have anything to add regarding the Mk 5 withdrawals, or are we done here?

Just a reminder that anything relating to other subjects belongs in a separate thread. Also anything of a speculative nature belongs on Speculative Discussion section. Thanks

 

[JonathanH]

Apparently there are moves from Longsight to Gascoigne Wood in place for Monday and Wednesday, so looks like that is to be the storage site for the Mark 5 carriages.

5Q16 0748 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings

Monday

Realtime Trains | 5Q16 0748 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings | 18/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q16 0748 departure from Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings on 18/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Wednesday

Realtime Trains | 5Q16 0748 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings | 20/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q16 0748 departure from Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings on 20/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

No sign of any associated movements so perhaps the 68s go for storage / ongoing train supply as well.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does anyone have anything to add regarding the Mk 5 withdrawals, or are we done here?

Just a reminder that anything relating to other subjects belongs in a separate thread. Also anything of a speculative nature belongs on Speculative Discussion section. Thanks

I think there will be many who want to know where the Mk5s will be stored.

After that is will be the speculative uses thread.

Apparently there are moves from Longsight to Gascoigne Wood in place for Monday and Wednesday, so looks like that is to be the storage site for the Mark 5 carriages.

5Q16 0748 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings

Monday

Realtime Trains | 5Q16 0748 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings | 18/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q16 0748 departure from Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings on 18/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Wednesday

Realtime Trains | 5Q16 0748 Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings | 20/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q16 0748 departure from Longsight Car. M.D. to Gascoigne Wood Sidings on 20/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

No sign of any associated movements so perhaps the 68s go for storage / ongoing train supply as well.

I was surprised to discover the 68s were not staying on the sets at Crewe or latterly at Gascoigne wood. But then maybe that was because it was summer.