TPE pricing oddities from Castleford

[yorkie]

I've missed a step; which daily services (excluding diversions, specials and route-learners)?

It varies, but for example:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Castleford all day on 07/12/2023

Train information at Castleford all day on 07/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If you ignore variations to the working timetable, the usual WTT examples on a typical weekday in the current timetable are:

9M05	NCL-LIV
1U27	SCA-LDS
1U79	LDS-SCA
1K36	HUL-LDS
1P41	MAN-YRK
1K37	LDS-HUL

It's not just diversions and alterations; it's a regular thing for many trains and has been for as long as I can remember.

So it's not reopening a freight only line for passenger use as such; it's a new service, but entirely over lines that are already pre-existing passenger routes with regularly scheduled passenger services.

 

[YorksLad12]

Honestly didn't realise that anything had previously regularly used Castleford to York except during diversions and for recent route learning. I had it marked down as freight and diversions only.

 

[kieron]

Note that contractually, Ulleskelf to Castleford is valid via York.

...

However, booking engines will not offer itineraries because the distance travelled on the direct train via York is not in the electronic data.

Adding a link to the data wouldn't help. The standard procedure would mean creating a link between Castleford and South Milford, which would make the shortest distance around 13 miles. As any route you could actually take is much further, this would probably stop the "any permitted" tickets from being offered at all outside engineering works.

 

[Crossover]

(I pose this hypothentically and hope it doesn't happen) but rather than a route: Sherburn-in-Elmet ticket, could they do a TPE only restriction? As TPE are the only ones to serve the route it would prevent traffic via Leeds (which would need a Northern connection, unless 'doubling back' via Mirfield) but also presumably mean TPE would get all the money and not have to share it with Northern/XC/LNER.

 

[Kite159]

(I pose this hypothentically and hope it doesn't happen) but rather than a route: Sherburn-in-Elmet ticket, could they do a TPE only restriction? As TPE are the only ones to serve the route it would prevent traffic via Leeds (which would need a Northern connection, unless 'doubling back' via Mirfield) but also presumably mean TPE would get all the money and not have to share it with Northern/XC/LNER.

Wouldn't it be better for a 'Route: Sherburn' rather than TPE only. At least a passenger can pay the excess if they wanted to come back via Leeds (ie if they miss the last direct train due to their own fault)

 

[Crossover]

Wouldn't it be better for a 'Route: Sherburn' rather than TPE only. At least a passenger can pay the excess if they wanted to come back via Leeds (ie if they miss the last direct train due to their own fault)

I'm not suggesting otherwise, just posing the question whether they could be absolute twits and try and play it to their advantage by doing a TOC restriction

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm not suggesting otherwise, just posing the question whether they could be absolute twits and try and play it to their advantage by doing a TOC restriction

What is the point of creating additional new TOC-restricted fares?

 

[Haywain]

What is the point of creating additional new TOC-restricted fares?

None at all when a minimal amount from a routed ticket would be allocated to other TOCs.

 

[Crossover]

What is the point of creating additional new TOC-restricted fares?

There isn’t. For at least the second time it is a hypothetical question!

 

[CompactDstrxion]

The existing fares from Wakefield and Normanton to York are not appropriate. There are three routes
'Northern Only'
'Via Leeds' - priced by TPE
'Any Permitted' - which is priced by LNER, intended for travel via Doncaster and more costly than buying from further back at Huddersfield

For Wakefield changing the 'Via Leeds' fares to 'Not Via Doncaster' would sort it?

Castleford should have two routes 'Via Leeds' and 'Not Via Leeds'.

Normanton fares/routes should be grouped with Castleford for this journey rather than Wakefield. Don't think anyone would want to go Normanton - Kirkgate - Westgate - Doncaster - York.

 

[Watershed]

The existing fares from Wakefield and Normanton to York are not appropriate. There are three routes
'Northern Only'
'Via Leeds'
'Any Permitted' - which is priced by LNER, intended for travel via Doncaster and more costly than buying from further back at Huddersfield

For Wakefield changing the 'Via Leeds' fares to 'Not Via Doncaster' would sort it?

That would indeed solve it, but I'd expect a bigger discount for travelling via Castleford. However, realistically speaking a re-routing to "not via Doncaster" is probably the best you're going to get.

Castleford should have two routes 'Via Leeds' and 'Not Via Leeds'.

Normanton fares/routes should be grouped with Castleford for this journey rather than Wakefield. Don't think anyone would want to go Normanton - Kirkgate - (walk/bus) - Westgate - Doncaster - York.

Changing Normanton to being grouped with Castleford is harder than it sounds, since it's part of the same cluster as Wakefield. I suppose you could do a fares override but that would only specifically work if travelling to York.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

The Wakefield/Normanton cluster also has a fairly unique fares issue now for destinations north of York all the way up to Reston, as these always offer either the 'Any Permitted' route which is more costly and valid via Doncaster or the 'Via Leeds' route that doesn't allow for avoiding Leeds on the new service. All those 'Via Leeds' fares need to be amended to 'Not Via Doncaster'.

Fares to the same destinations from neighbouring areas like Castleford or Mirfield tend to use the 'Via Leeds York' route which allows travel via Leeds or York and therefore can be used to avoid Leeds on the new service.

 

[johntea]

14:58 Manchester - York via Castleford cancelled today, next option 17:03

An interesting situation as a result since any advance ticket holders are unlikely to wait 2 hours for the next service, so they’ll be looking to have an alternative journey endorsed

The issue being several stations along the route being unstaffed and on top of that they would need to use Northern initially to get them back on the move!

On the ground I suspect most Northern guards wouldn’t have an issue but by the book…!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There has been an update on fares on these new services:

Temporary “TPE Only” fares for Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton & Castleford to/from York

TransPennine Express have introduced new temporary TPE Only fares for travel between Wakefield, Normanton or Castleford < > York that are valid on the new direct TPE service between these locations.

These products will start showing in all retailing systems within the next few days and will be available for sale until 14th March 2024 inclusive.

We will provide an update prior to 14th March on changes to permanent fares on this route to ensure that customers have a range of attractive and value for money fares.

Below are all products & fares that have been created.

Wakefield Kirkgate < > York: -
SDS - Anytime Day Single - £15.00
SDR - Anytime Day Return - £19.00
CDR - Off-Peak Day Return - £16.00
FDS - Anytime Day Single (First Class) - £23.50
FHR - Anytime Short Return (First Class) - £46.50
7DS – 7 Day Season Ticket - £76.00
7DF – 7 Day Season Ticket (First Class) - £139.50

Normanton < > York: -
SDS - Anytime Day Single - £13.20
SDR - Anytime Day Return - £16.50
CDR - Off-Peak Day Return - £13.90
FDS - Anytime Day Single (First Class) - £20.00
FHR - Anytime Short Return (First Class) - £39.10
7DS – 7 Day Season Ticket - £66.00
7DF – 7 Day Season Ticket (First Class) - £117.30

Castleford < > York: -
SDS - Anytime Day Single - £11.40
SDR - Anytime Day Return - £13.90
CDR - Off-Peak Day Return - £11.80
FDS - Anytime Day Single (First Class) - £18.00
FHR - Anytime Short Return (First Class) - £35.50
7DS – 7 Day Season Ticket - £55.10
7DF – 7 Day Season Ticket (First Class) - £106.50

In addition to these fares, we have reviewed the Advance fares on this route and brought them in line with these TPE Only fares.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

All these fares are valid to start short from Leeds aren't they

 

[TUC]

There has been an update on fares on these new services:

But why have they only done this now? It doesn't suggest they're very good at advance planning, does it?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

All these fares are valid to start short from Leeds aren't they

Well you could perhaps argue not as there is no way of getting from any of those stations to Leeds on a TPE service.

But I am never quite sure how starting short etc works in situations such as this. How can you start short if you can't get there using the ticket in the first place?

But why have they only done this now? It doesn't suggest they're very good at advance planning, does it?

Because I suspect nobody actually thought about it until now.

 

[yorkie]

All these fares are valid to start short from Leeds aren't they

Absolutely, yes.

But no itinerary could be produced on any booking site. I expect some staff members would make up rules that do not exist to argue it's not valid.

But the process is this: are you travelling on a permitted route? If yes, are you travelling on TPE? If yes, are you permitted to start/finish short? If yes, then there is nothing to invalidate it.

But why have they only done this now?

Because it was posted here, probably; that's the usual way pricing anomalies reach the attention of the relevant people.

It doesn't suggest they're very good at advance planning, does it?

That they've done something (albeit executed poorly) within a few weeks of the operation starting is actually pretty good by TOC pricing standards!

There has been an update on fares on these new services:

A poor set of fares; expensive, and routing them via TPE only presents a few issues:

• Restricting by TOC, makes it harder for passengers to be re-routed via Leeds, during disruptive incidents (ticket acceptance is not always in place and, even where it is in place, not always advertised)
• There is no way to pay an appropriate price to travel via Sherburn in one direction and via Leeds in the other; had they been restricted by geographical route, this would have been possible.
• Restricting by TOC provides a loophole for passengers travelling between Leeds and York, as there is no rule that actually invalidates the use of the tickets for a journey starting/finishing short at Leeds.

Another issue I have is that:

• The price is still not good value for money; the fact it is cheaper than York - Leeds doesn't say much, given that route is incredibly overpriced.

What TPE have done is in line with my expectations, given I wouldn't expect them to get this right, so I am not surprised they've made a poor job of it. I would have been very surprised if they had got it right.

What TPE should do, but probably won't, is re-route the fares to either "via Sherburn" or "Not via Leeds", and reduce the fares by a couple of quid apiece.

Needless to say, I have no plans to purchase any of these ridiculous fares!

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Also it appears the new off peak fares have been added without any restriction code, so they can be bought for any time of day.

The TPE-only Castleford fares appear to have been set to exactly match fares from Pontefract Baghill which seems sensible.

 

[yorkie]

Also it appears the new off peak fares have been added without any restriction code, so they can be bought for any time of day.

This sort of thing not unheard of when new fares are introduced; it will be fixed soon, no doubt.

In the meantime, if snap them up quick, with an itinerary, they would be contractually valid if sticking to the itinerary provided. But it may not be a 'hassle-free' journey, as some staff don't understand the concept of the itinerary being contractually binding.

I would strongly advise against the use of any such tickets at 'peak' times without an itinerary in place, though (especially if starting/finishing short via Leeds, for which you'd not be able to generate an itinerary, obviously).

 

[TUC]

Well you could perhaps argue not as there is no way of getting from any of those stations to Leeds on a TPE service.

But I am never quite sure how starting short etc works in situations such as this. How can you start short if you can't get there using the ticket in the first place?


Because I suspect nobody actually thought about it until now.

If either a new station is being opened, or new services are being added to one, surely pricing is one of the core issues to think about?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The TPE-only Castleford fares appear to have been set to exactly match fares from Pontefract Baghill which seems sensible.

Whilst the Pontefract Baghill to York "Not Via Leeds" fares are no doubt intended to be used on the few direct trains a day, the same fares can also be obtained with an origin of "Pontefract Tanshelf or Monkhill" and it would be difficult to argue those are not valid via Castleford and then direct to York avoiding Leeds. So yes, making Castleford the same as Pontefract seems sensible.

I suspect what will happen by March is a review of all the fares and permitted routes in conjunction with other TOCS.

These temporary fares are to bridge the gap. TPE Only Fares can't be introduced from Castleford on a long term basis anyway as TPE is the fare setter for the Any Permitted fare, so if I understand correctly, they can't introduce a TPE Only fare long term.

Ideally you would end up with two or three sets of fares - Any Permitted (which in the case of Wakefield also allows travel via Doncaster), Via Leeds and Not Via Leeds or Doncaster. OR, simply "Via Leeds" and "Not Via Leeds". I can't see why you want the Wakefield fare to be valid via Doncaster to be honest anyway so removing that option makes life a whole lot simpler for everyone.

These options remove the TOC only fares and also mean the passenger isn't unduly penalised if they want to go one way and back the other other, only needing a change of route excess rather than a whole new ticket.

If either a new station is being opened, or new services are being added to one, surely pricing is one of the core issues to think about?

I would have thought that too.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I can't see why you want the Wakefield fare to be valid via Doncaster to be honest anyway so removing that option makes life a whole lot simpler for everyone.

1. I have done the journey between Wakefield (Westgate) and northern ECML via Doncaster several times. CrossCountry do not have adequate capacity for these direct journeys. Changing onto LNER at Doncaster can be preferable to changing onto TPE at Leeds.
2. There are stations south of Wakefield that are part of the same fares cluster and it would be unreasonable to deny travel via Doncaster.

 

[johntea]

I jumped on a York service at Castleford this morning…with a ‘valid only via Leeds’ ticket as I needed to get to Harrogate and there is currently disruption between Leeds and Harrogate due to flooding (trains running OK York as far as Harrogate)

Ticket acceptance specified for TPE although just mentions services between Leeds and York

“TransPennine Express services between Leeds and York”

The guard was happy enough when I explained things

Made more sense in my mind than a lovely extended trip round the houses on a rail replacement bus anyway!

 

[johntea]

Any updates on changes to these "temporary" fares yet? (other than they've increased slightly as part of the general fare rises this month)

It would also be quite nice if they could sort something out so I can use them to get to Knaresborough / Starbeck / Harrogate for the same price as the 'valid only via Leeds' fare particularly with some extra services coming in June but maybe I'm wishing for too much there!

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Looks like the fare route has just been updated from 'TPE Only' to 'Not via Leeds or Doncaster' so at least excesses can now be bought to travel via Leeds in one direction on a return.
Restriction codes have been added to the Off Peak fares.
Annoyingly, the fare route for destinations beyond York are still 'via Leeds' or 'Any Permitted' which is priced to assume travel via Doncaster.

 

[ZombieGrum]

Its weird though for example a return from Ponte Monkhill to Leeds is £7.90. The same journey from Castleford is £7.90. Despite it being the same train and 2 stops closer. And if we are saying distances doesn't matter, a return from Woodlesford to Leeds is £5.10 so distance defo does factor into cost.

Granted the distance between Ponte Monkhill and Cast is not massive but still it is about 5 miles, the distance between Woodlesford and Leeds is about 6 miles yet there is an almost £3 reduction in the fare. And this is the same train and line.

Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Its weird though for example a return from Ponte Monkhill to Leeds is £7.90. The same journey from Castleford is £7.90. Despite it being the same train and 2 stops closer. And if we are saying distances doesn't matter, a return from Woodlesford to Leeds is £5.10 so distance defo does factor into cost.

Looks like there's quasi-zonal pricing being applied. The same fares apply from all the Zone 3 stations in the South East sector (Wakefield/Castleford out to Knottingley/Sandal & Agbrigg.)