TPE Takeover of Local Services

[james2trains]

A while ago, TPE announced that they were taking over the local stopping services from Northern on the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester route as of the May 2018 timetable change.

There was an article in the news today about it, so it got me thinking what the timetable would be like. Has TPE released anything about it yet? I had a quick Google but couldn't find much so thought I'd ask on here.

If you didn't know about this, these are 2 articles from Huddersfield's newspaper.

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/fewer-trains-marsden-slaithwaite-commuters-13287327

Train users are urging a re-think of controversial plans which will see two local trains an hour - stopping at either Marsden or Slaithwaite.

It could mean fewer or no services going from Marsden to Slaithwaite, according to Slaithwaite and Marden Action on Rail Transport (SMART) which says there will be implications for Real Ale Trail fans...

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/more-direct-connections-faster-train-12434429

It has been revealed that TransPennine Express (TPE) is taking over the Leeds to Manchester stopping service through Huddersfield in May 2018.

The move to TPE’s modern fleet is likely to bring increased capacity between key towns and cities in West Yorkshire...

 

[D365]

Will this be serviced by Class 185s then?

 

[james2trains]

Will this be serviced by Class 185s then?

My assumption has always been that they would yes, and then use the new 800s and Mk5s for the fast services.

However it is just an assumption, can anyone shed any light on it?

 

[47802]

I think its been indicated for some time that 185's will work the semi fast services. with 802's and 68's on the fasts it doesn't strike me as really a satisfactory solution which potentially short changes the local stations in order to get six TPE trains an hour.

 

[Moonshot]

I think its been indicated for some time that 185's will work the semi fast services. with 802's and 68's on the fasts it doesn't really strike me as really a satisfactory solution which potentially short changes the local stations in order to get six TPE trains an hour.

Should kill off the ale trail in its present form though......which will no doubt please the residents of Marsden and Slaithwaite to name but 2.

 

[47802]

Should kill off the ale trail in its present form though......which will no doubt please the residents of Marsden and Slaithwaite to name but 2.

Well it will likely kill off travel between some local stations, but if you look at it that most travel from these local station is probably between Huddersfield/Leeds or Manchester (ale train excepted) I guess it could be regarded as an improvement

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well it will likely kill off travel between some local stations, but if you look at it that most travel from these local station is probably between Huddersfield/Leeds or Manchester (ale train excepted) I guess it could be regarded as an improvement

That's the rub, essentially. In the peaks, most journeys from the smaller stations are to either the major centres of Leeds and Manchester or to the smaller but significant stops such as Huddersfield and Dewsbury. Those West of Huddersfield gain a direct Leeds train where previously they'd have to change at Huddersfield. The lesser numbers that will have a negative impact are those that travel from say Slaithwaite to Marsden or from Marsden to Mirfield. The exact stopping patterns haven't AFAIK been finalised but there may well be a situation similar to the Ravensthorpe to Cottingley conundrum: that during the day no service serves both.
If a similar awkward situation arises, I'd hope that there'd be a fares easement to allow doubling back if required.

One of the issues is the poor quality of bus services up the Colne Valley. Relatively frequent yes, but very few services serve Slaithwaite village centre and then run on to Marsden if indeed any do. The 184 which runs through to Manchester doesn't even run into Marsden village, simply passing on the A62. Journeys to Huddersfield won't be affected but because integration seems to be anathema even in a PTE area, buses will continue to compete with the trains instead of linking with them or filling the gaps.

 

[BMIFlyer]

If you look in the franchise agreement the info is deep within it..

A quick google search finds you an extract but alas someone on the forums here added a file in another post, which shows the train service requirement for the stations between Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester from December 2017.

Here's a copy of it (attached). Basically some stations like Cottingley for example will only see peak hour trains. Others will see alternate trains per hour.

Some stations currently have trains that call hourly in the off peak yet no one usually boards or alights, for example Deighton and Ravensthorpe just to give examples. These are some of the reasons that trains will end up being peak hour calls.

When you look at ticket sales between select stations, you can see that not many people travel from Slaithwaite to Marsden for example and vice versa, hence the service to those stations become alternate pattern stops.

It all makes sense if you look at the wider picture.

 

[Kite159]

One negative impact could be overcrowding at Leeds preventing someone from boarding the hourly TPE which calls at station "X" which used to be served by the Northern unit starting from Leeds.

 

[BMIFlyer]

One negative impact could be overcrowding at Leeds preventing someone from boarding the hourly TPE which calls at station "X" which used to be served by the Northern unit starting from Leeds.

Not really, because all TPE trains will be 5 cars minimum all day long whereas now they are 3 or 6 depending on the time of day. You are going from 3 car rush hour trains to 5 cars on some and and from 3 cars to 6 on others. Some current rush hour only 6 car trains will become 5 cars but that's not an issue as where the train before said 6 car is currently 3 cars for example, it will be 5 cars in the future.

Can't please everyone, but in the long run it will be a much better service for most people.

 

[nr758123]

When you look at ticket sales between select stations, you can see that not many people travel from Slaithwaite to Marsden for example and vice versa, hence the service to those stations become alternate pattern stops.

On the other hand, the lack of ticket sales between Slaithwaite and Marsden could be something to do with it being a 4 or 6 minute journey with no ticket machines on the relevant platforms of those stations. The shorter the journey between unstaffed stations, the less likely that passengers will be able to buy a ticket.

 

[Moonshot]

On the other hand, the lack of ticket sales between Slaithwaite and Marsden could be something to do with it being a 4 or 6 minute journey with no ticket machines on the relevant platforms of those stations. The shorter the journey between unstaffed stations, the less likely that passengers will be able to buy a ticket.

I can safely say ( as I work on this very route ) that outside of the ale trail, there is very little flow between the 2 stations....and conductors generally capture the small numbers anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

Not really, because all TPE trains will be 5 cars minimum all day long whereas now they are 3 or 6 depending on the time of day. You are going from 3 car rush hour trains to 5 cars on some and and from 3 cars to 6 on others. Some current rush hour only 6 car trains will become 5 cars but that's not an issue as where the train before said 6 car is currently 3 cars for example, it will be 5 cars in the future.

Can't please everyone, but in the long run it will be a much better service for most people.

I doubt it. The more frequent TP services will probably attract more long distance passengers. Will these have the capacity to carry the large numbers of passengers using the current peak hour local services from Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield? (Sometimes so many that they cannot all board a 2 coach dmu and have to wait for the next train.)

 

[nr758123]

I can safely say ( as I work on this very route ) that outside of the ale trail, there is very little flow between the 2 stations....and conductors generally capture the small numbers anyway.

I'm afraid that doesn't tally with my experience when making that journey, but we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I doubt it. The more frequent TP services will probably attract more long distance passengers. Will these have the capacity to carry the large numbers of passengers using the current peak hour local services from Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield? (Sometimes so many that they cannot all board a 2 coach dmu and have to wait for the next train.)

Northern will still run one or two trains in the morning and evening peak Man Vic to Huddersfield and back. That has been the plan all along. They will call at all stops as happens currently.

 

[nr758123]

I doubt it. The more frequent TP services will probably attract more long distance passengers. Will these have the capacity to carry the large numbers of passengers using the current peak hour local services from Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield? (Sometimes so many that they cannot all board a 2 coach dmu and have to wait for the next train.)

Yes, that's a big concern, especially when waiting for the next train may be an hour rather than (as at present) half an hour.

 

[Andyh82]

They'll just have to change the Ale Trail where you have to back track to Huddersfield after each other station. That'd add a new challenge to proceedings.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern will still run one or two trains in the morning and evening peak Man Vic to Huddersfield and back. That has been the plan all along. They will call at all stops as happens currently.

My understanding is that it will be Manc Pic to Huddersfield and back ...5 or 6 a day at peak times only.

 

[nr758123]

Northern will still run one or two trains in the morning and evening peak Man Vic to Huddersfield and back. That has been the plan all along. They will call at all stops as happens currently.

Most of those extras, and in particular all three extras from Manchester in the evening peak, will miss out Slaithwaite & Marsden. Hence a reduction from half-hourly to hourly.

I realise that it's collateral damage from the perceived need for 6 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds as per a 2011 DfT press release, but the collateral damage might have something to say about it.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes, that's a big concern, especially when waiting for the next train may be an hour rather than (as at present) half an hour.

Most of those extras, and in particular all three extras from Manchester in the evening peak, will miss out Slaithwaite & Marsden. Hence a reduction from half-hourly to hourly.

I realise that it's collateral damage from the perceived need for 6 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds as per a 2011 DfT press release, but the collateral damage might have something to say about it.

Manchester to Marsden / Slaithwaite is only half hourly for a period between 1600 and 1900 from Manchester. The rest of the day it is hourly. Greenfield and Mossley remain half hourly during that period.

There is however an improvement in service from Huddersfield to Marsden and Slaithwaite in the evening peak, to make it better than now, as combined with the Northern service there will be additional services compared to now. Not to mention to vastly improved direct service to Leeds.

So it's swings and roundabouts really.

The timetable plan from the DfT is obviously designed around Greenfield and Mossley having a greater commuter emphasis to Manchester and Slaithwaite and Marsden having a greater commuter emphasis towards Huddersfield and Leeds.

 

[Eccles1983]

I'm afraid that doesn't tally with my experience when making that journey, but we will just have to agree to disagree.

Well he's right.

Its one of my routes. Aside from the evening rush of weekend drunken "characters" its very quiet.

Mixed emotions about it being transfered over. Its a lovely route during daylight hours. And an absolute nightmare at the weekends.

Added with units requiring to be locked out due to a tiny platform and nice shiny tpe's turning into rolling sick buckets im not sure they realise what they have got into.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On the other hand, the lack of ticket sales between Slaithwaite and Marsden could be something to do with it being a 4 or 6 minute journey with no ticket machines on the relevant platforms of those stations. The shorter the journey between unstaffed stations, the less likely that passengers will be able to buy a ticket.

Also it's in a PTE area, so many passengers use MCards and the like.

One of my work colleagues switched a year ago from a Slaithwaite to Mirfield monthly season to a quarterly Z2-5 Mcard. As a result, her journeys won't be logged in the usage figures as neither station is gated. The reason for her switch was so that if the trains were disrupted (due to strikes for example) she could then use buses for part or all of the journey at no extra cost. The proposed changes may make her journey easier when things are working as they should, at least.

 

[lejog]

Northern will still run one or two trains in the morning and evening peak Man Vic to Huddersfield and back. That has been the plan all along. They will call at all stops as happens currently.

According to this post in the May 2018 timetable thread, there are only a few early morning Northern stops at Marsden or Slaithwaite, hence presumbly the Examiner claiming an hourly service at these stations.

Northern operated service to Huddersfield:

05:56 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite and Huddersfield

07:00 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Marsden, Slaithwaite and Huddersfield

08:04 Manchester Piccadilly-Stalybridge, calling at Guide Bridge and Stalybridge

16:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

17:02 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

18:01 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

Huddersfield-Piccadilly

06:00 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (06:53)

07:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (07:54)

08:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly (08:54)

18:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly

19:13 Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly calling at Greenfield, Mossley, Stalybridge, Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly

I think that there isn't any extra Saturday from Northern, and TPE haven't released a proposed TT yet

 

[Solent&Wessex]

According to this post in the May 2018 timetable thread, there are only a few early morning Northern stops at Marsden or Slaithwaite, hence presumbly the Examiner claiming an hourly service at these stations.

Those times do not match what is quoted in the TPE and Norther franchise specification for the peak periods.

 

[noddingdonkey]

With the Ale Trail, there are a number of interesting points which arise.

I suspect a lot will do Huddersfield - Marsden - Stalybridge - Slaithwaite - Huddersfield. That has the benefit that it might reduce the number of people in Marsden at any one time - they seem to have more trouble than in Slaithwaite, my theory is that this is a) because trains in both directions arrive at roughly the same time, and b) because it's where a lot of people turn back they are more likely to stay for another hour rather than getting the next train back. Under skip-stop it might become a passing visit rather than the destination. Arguably Stalybridge is better placed to deal with a big influx having just one Ale Trail destination and it's on the station, so security/BTP can be deployed.

It will be interesting to see what TPE do to try to control the more anti-social elements on the ale trail. I could see dry trains being proposed at a minimum.

Aside from the ale trail, one of the main concerns locally is that due to its length, services will no longer use Platform 3 (51m) and will use Platform 2 (95m). Only P3 has level access, so those with mobility issues are likely to need a taxi to/from Huddersfield in both directions now.

Short platforms will be a problem at Marsden and Slaithwaite. Marsden Plat1 is 65m and both at Slaitwaite are 60m. According to the Sectional Appendix the maximum at all is a 3 car 14x or a 2 car 15x. Do 185s have SDO?

 

[BMIFlyer]

Aside from the ale trail, one of the main concerns locally is that due to its length, services will no longer use Platform 3 (51m) and will use Platform 2 (95m). Only P3 has level access, so those with mobility issues are likely to need a taxi to/from Huddersfield in both directions now.

Short platforms will be a problem at Marsden and Slaithwaite. Marsden Plat1 is 65m and both at Slaitwaite are 60m. According to the Sectional Appendix the maximum at all is a 3 car 14x or a 2 car 15x. Do 185s have SDO?

Platforms are being extended at the mentioned stations to at least 4x23m coach length. Class 185s are in the process of having ASDO fitted but in the meantime can have individual doors isolated by the guard as stipulated in the relevant briefings that are issued regarding over length working at stations.

I find the platform 3 argument irrelevant as what do the limited mobility people do on the way back from Manchester? Travel to Huddersfield and backtrack? One would hope that station improvements for Marsden may be on the cards with either a ramp constructed to the platforms from the road bridge above, or lifts.

 

[47802]

Platforms are being extended at the mentioned stations to at least 4x23m coach length. Class 185s are in the process of having ASDO fitted but in the meantime can have individual doors isolated by the guard as stipulated in the relevant briefings that are issued regarding over length working at stations.

I find the platform 3 argument irrelevant as what do the limited mobility people do on the way back from Manchester? Travel to Huddersfield and backtrack? One would hope that station improvements for Marsden may be on the cards with either a ramp constructed to the platforms from the road bridge above, or lifts.

I was a 185 to Barrow a few weeks ago and on the short platform stations like Kents Bank the conductor was opening a door in the middle carriage.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Yes that is single door operated at Kents Bank, etc due to the drop from a 185 to the platform surface. There's a hump on the westbound platform that raises the platform surface to lessen the drop. The idea of the single door operation is so that passengers can be assisted on and off by the crew.

If the train is exceptionally busy, the crew can request a full door release for all the doors but permission has to be given by the railway control room - at least we stipulated the latter requirement when TPE operated the route.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Yes that is single door operated at Kents Bank, etc due to the drop from a 185 to the platform surface. There's a hump on the westbound platform that raises the platform surface to lessen the drop. The idea of the single door operation is so that passengers can be assisted on and off by the crew.

If the train is exceptionally busy, the crew can request a full door release for all the doors but permission has to be given by the railway control room - at least we stipulated the latter requirement when TPE operated the route.

Why is the rest of the platform so low?

 

[Kite159]

To give an idea what the Barrow bound platform at Kents Bank is like:
185114 at Kents Bank by Kite, on Flickr

It looked like a reasonable step on the non-raised section so only having local door makes sense.

Makes sense with the timetable, although it will still cause headaches if TPE are running late, will some of the stops be removed from a late running service with a special stop order put in for a service behind it?