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Track connection between Greenwich line and line to London Charing Cross

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Class800

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Would anyone who is expert in infrastructure be able to confirm whether there is indeed still a track connection between the Greenwich line (Charlton to Deptford) and the line through to London Charing Cross? I had read in the media that the remodelling of London Bridge as part of the Thameslink programme had severed the link, meaning that Greenwich line services could not run to Charing Cross. However, today it is said that "Trains from London Charing Cross to Dartford, which usually run via Blackheath and Woolwich Arsenal, will instead run via Greenwich and Woolwich Arsenal" due to a signal failure at Charlton (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx). I didn't think was possible any more
 
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Where trains turn right for thameslink they can carry straight on, so the link has been severed on the east side of London Bridge but maintained on the west side.
This isn't the clearest map but see: https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tl-lbg-1
Thanks for this clarification. The diversion via Greenwich is being necessitated and used only in an eastbound direction (down lines). So, it makes sense, given what you say that trains from Charing Cross can run via Greenwich, but trains to Charing Cross cannot do so
 

zwk500

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Thanks for this clarification. The diversion via Greenwich is being necessitated and used only in an eastbound direction (down lines). So, it makes sense, given what you say that trains from Charing Cross can run via Greenwich, but trains to Charing Cross cannot do so
I think it's more that trains to charing Cross do not need to, so are being run by their normal route to keep disruption as low as reasonably possible. The layout does permit up trains from Greenwich to Charing Cross.
 

Class800

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I think it's more that trains to charing Cross do not need to, so are being run by their normal route to keep disruption as low as reasonably possible. The layout does permit up trains from Greenwich to Charing Cross.
OK. That's interesting. I recall something from when there were engineering works last year on the Lewisham route that all trains from Woolwich Arsenal towards London had to go to Cannon Street, because they said trains to London via Greenwich could not access the route to Charing Cross.
 

zwk500

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OK. That's interesting. I recall something from when there were engineering works last year on the Lewisham route that all trains from Woolwich Arsenal towards London had to go to Cannon Street, because they said trains to London via Greenwich could not access the route to Charing Cross.
There is a capacity constraint so it will depend on the circumstances of the individual issue
 

zero

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Over the new year weekend I believe Thameslink was running London Bridge to Rainham terminating and reversing in LBG platform 6/7

Not sure if this required the use of the track mentioned in this thread.

I don't quite get why trains can't continue to CHX but maybe it's because some of the lines are not reversible?
 

zwk500

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Over the new year weekend I believe Thameslink was running London Bridge to Rainham terminating and reversing in LBG platform 6/7

Not sure if this required the use of the track mentioned in this thread.

I don't quite get why trains can't continue to CHX but maybe it's because some of the lines are not reversible
London Bridge to Rainham will not have required track to the west of LBG. There are crossovers available from the Thameslink/Sussex Fasts to Platforms 6/7 for turnback moves, but the line between CHX and P7 is not signalled for Up direction moves.
Trains from Platform 5 or 6 at LBG can use the Up Slow to CHX without issue. CHX has 4 approach tracks, none reversible. The 2 slow lines feed into the Thameslink Lines and become the Sussex Fasts. The 2 fast lines feed P6-9 at LBG and become the Kent Fasts. The reason why not all trains can run to CHX is platform capacity at the terminus and junction capacity at Ewer St Jn (the Slow/Fast crossover just before the Snow Hill Lines join in the fun). I've included a screenshot of the area with Ewer St jn highlighted. There will also have been crew/stock diagram considerations to turning round early and possibly crowd management with COVID.
 

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Horizon22

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Yes there is. It’s North Kent East Junction. The route exists east of London Bridge and is how the journey would be done by crossing over there. If Charing Cross services end up on diversion via Greenwich that is where they will cross.

It is also feasible than Thameslink services could continue straight at Ewer St Junction, but in practice this just doesn’t happen. I also can’t remember if 700s were ever cleared for Charing Cross and Waterloo East.

You are right in that media and general reports said the route was “severed” which is either just downright false or a misrepresentation of the state of play. Really the reason it’s not done is because it is would add one huge conflict across one of the biggest parts of the track in the country, which is exactly what the Thameslink programme (and the Bermondsey flyovers) was meant to resolve. This became almost immediately devalued though when Thameslink was sent down to Rainham as something of a last resort.

Over the new year weekend I believe Thameslink was running London Bridge to Rainham terminating and reversing in LBG platform 6/7

Not sure if this required the use of the track mentioned in this thread.

I don't quite get why trains can't continue to CHX but maybe it's because some of the lines are not reversible?

As mentioned im not sure they are route cleared nor the staff trained on 700s (they ran early in testing I think but just once or twice?). Being reversible doesn’t matter if you’re turning around in a terminus and turn back. Charing Cross is a pretty constrained station already and you’d have issues with 12 cars in all platforms although 8s would be fine.
 
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gazr

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Can confirm the move was done last weekend with Thameslink. The rare link in question is called the Sussex Reversible.
 

ComUtoR

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Can confirm the move was done last weekend with Thameslink. The rare link in question is called the Sussex Reversible.

The crossover from North Kent East is the Southwark Reversible. The Sussex Reversible is the route from the Bermondsey side.

Have they got the RLU/FLU markers in place?

It's a Terminal platform.....
 

Mcr Warrior

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Does a section of (single track?) line about two miles out from London Bridge (the "Southwark Reversible") get much use? Looks to connect the No. 3 Up and No. 4 Down lines with the Up and Down Kent Fast lines. If so, could it be used to route trains from Deptford /Greenwich into Charing Cross?
 

gazr

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The crossover from North Kent East is the Southwark Reversible. The Sussex Reversible is the route from the Bermondsey side.



It's a Terminal platform.....
Even when I've got a Quail (Trackmap) in front of me, I still manage to get it wrong! :oops:
 

Horizon22

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The crossover from North Kent East is the Southwark Reversible. The Sussex Reversible is the route from the Bermondsey side.



It's a Terminal platform.....

At Waterloo East I meant!
 

ComUtoR

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Does a section of (single track?) line about two miles out from London Bridge (the "Southwark Reversible") get much use?

Yes. The Rainhams use it.

At Waterloo East I meant!
HEHEHEHE. (I was being a touch cheeky)

However, I can't for the life of me recall. I'll have a look when I next pass through. As you and I both know, 'clearance' isn't just about a unit being able to use a station. You can have a unit cleared for the route but not cleared for passenger service.
 
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Horizon22

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However, I can't for the life of me recall. I'll have a look when I next pass through. As you and I both know, 'clearance' isn't just about a unit being able to use a station. You can have a unit cleared for the route but not cleared for passenger service.

Indeed, I was thinking it was possibly cleared for the route, but not cleared for passenger service.
 

30907

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Yes there is. It’s North Kent East Junction. The route exists east of London Bridge and is how the journey would be done by crossing over there. If Charing Cross services end up on diversion via Greenwich that is where they will cross.
The difference since the latest rebuild is that previously you could access three of the "Charing Cross" lines (4-6) directly from the "Cannon Street" lines (1-3), crossing right over the layout (which is why only 3tph in the peak did it!). The new layout still makes it possible, via a rather complex route partly against the "normal" direction on the relevant tracks - alternatively trains can use the Thameslink pair which are also busy!
 

Horizon22

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The difference since the latest rebuild is that previously you could access three of the "Charing Cross" lines (4-6) directly from the "Cannon Street" lines (1-3), crossing right over the layout (which is why only 3tph in the peak did it!). The new layout still makes it possible, via a rather complex route partly against the "normal" direction on the relevant tracks - alternatively trains can use the Thameslink pair which are also busy!

Yes to my knowledge the whole point of this was to keep NKE Junction as a contingency should there be an issue on the Bexleyheath or Sidcup corridor or issues via Lewisham to allow a service to run from Charing X via Greenwich and also during engineering works on the weekends with a reduced service where the conflict issue is diminished. However chucking the the TL Rainham services that way diminished the whole "no conflicts" (although not as bad as to/from Charing X) approach pretty quickly!
 

zin92

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Hi,

Slightly related, I've never understood what trains use the two sections of track near NKE junction that I've circled in red in the attached - can somebody explain?

I don't believe that they're in regular use.

Many thanks
 

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43066

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Hi,

Slightly related, I've never understood what trains use the two sections of track near NKE junction that I've circled in red in the attached - can somebody explain?

I don't believe that they're in regular use.

Many thanks

At a pinch: the junction protected by 2744 signal is the spur allowing up GTR services to access the core after joining from the Greenwich line at NKE and crossing the CST lines.

The longer highlighted section appears to be the Kent reversible(?) - used interchangeably with the up and down Kent fast lines to relieve congestion.
 

gazr

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Hi,

Slightly related, I've never understood what trains use the two sections of track near NKE junction that I've circled in red in the attached - can somebody explain?

I don't believe that they're in regular use.

Many thanks
I was also wondering that, as when covering the SOUTHWARK Reversible last weekend, I noticed the smaller circle on your diagram was quite rusty.
 

Horizon22

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I'm fairly sure the connection is just there as extra reversible capacity should there be some sort of issue ahead. It is sporadically used but I remember it once being used when there was a passenger taken ill at London Bridge and allow a bit more scope so trains weren't backed up all the way to New Cross.
 

ComUtoR

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The difference since the latest rebuild is that previously you could access three of the "Charing Cross" lines (4-6) directly from the "Cannon Street" lines (1-3), crossing right over the layout (which is why only 3tph in the peak did it!). The new layout still makes it possible, via a rather complex route partly against the "normal" direction on the relevant tracks - alternatively trains can use the Thameslink pair which are also busy!
Can you explain that route please ?
 

OxtedL

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Yes there is. It’s North Kent East Junction. The route exists east of London Bridge and is how the journey would be done by crossing over there. If Charing Cross services end up on diversion via Greenwich that is where they will cross.

...

You are right in that media and general reports said the route was “severed” which is either just downright false or a misrepresentation of the state of play. Really the reason it’s not done is because it is would add one huge conflict across one of the biggest parts of the track in the country, which is exactly what the Thameslink programme (and the Bermondsey flyovers) was meant to resolve. This became almost immediately devalued though when Thameslink was sent down to Rainham as something of a last resort.
The present arrangement with the Thameslink<>Rainham service is much much better than trying to squeeze a Charing Cross to Greenwich service through the North Kent East Junction area would have been.

Both directions of a Charing Cross<>Greenwich service would have to use the single Southwark Reversible line to access the Bermondsey Diveunder (used in the current timetable by Thameslink trains going from Greenwich towards Luton, and yes used in the other direction today by trains from Charing Cross to Charlton diverted via Greenwich). This would have used twice as much capacity through North Kent East Junction, eastbound being the killer as it prevents any other moves to or from Cannon Street while a train crosses over.

By contrast, the inbound and outbound Thameslinks are able to cross through the whole North Kent East junction in parallel to each other.
All you lose timetable wise vs running the whole 6tph Greenwich service to Cannon Street is the ability to hypothetically run a parallel train from New Cross to Cannon Street on line 3 (with the Greenwiches on lines 1 & 2).

It's usually pretty smooth in practice, although yes, there are occasional delays from the conflicting moves.

And it's not much worse than the originally proposed Thameslink to Ashford via Chislehurst service. This would have been a diversion of the Cannon Street trains, admittedly at peak times only, and would have locked up almost as much of the North Kent East Junction area getting to and from the slow lines via New Cross. It not being possible to get from the Fast lines at New Cross to the Thameslink core without using Metropolitan Junction west of London Bridge, which was never on the cards.
 

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The present arrangement with the Thameslink<>Rainham service is much much better than trying to squeeze a Charing Cross to Greenwich service through the North Kent East It not being possible to get from the Fast lines at New Cross to the Thameslink core without using Metropolitan Junction west of London Bridge, which was never on the cards.

Crossover at Edward Street
 

OxtedL

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Crossover at Edward Street
You are of course correct, although it doesn't change the rest of what I typed. Please imagine that I had written "immediately north of New Cross" instead of "New Cross".
 

Horizon22

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The present arrangement with the Thameslink<>Rainham service is much much better than trying to squeeze a Charing Cross to Greenwich service through the North Kent East Junction area would have been.

Both directions of a Charing Cross<>Greenwich service would have to use the single Southwark Reversible line to access the Bermondsey Diveunder (used in the current timetable by Thameslink trains going from Greenwich towards Luton, and yes used in the other direction today by trains from Charing Cross to Charlton diverted via Greenwich). This would have used twice as much capacity through North Kent East Junction, eastbound being the killer as it prevents any other moves to or from Cannon Street while a train crosses over.

By contrast, the inbound and outbound Thameslinks are able to cross through the whole North Kent East junction in parallel to each other.
All you lose timetable wise vs running the whole 6tph Greenwich service to Cannon Street is the ability to hypothetically run a parallel train from New Cross to Cannon Street on line 3 (with the Greenwiches on lines 1 & 2).

It's usually pretty smooth in practice, although yes, there are occasional delays from the conflicting moves.

And it's not much worse than the originally proposed Thameslink to Ashford via Chislehurst service. This would have been a diversion of the Cannon Street trains, admittedly at peak times only, and would have locked up almost as much of the North Kent East Junction area getting to and from the slow lines via New Cross. It not being possible to get from the Fast lines at New Cross to the Thameslink core without using Metropolitan Junction west of London Bridge, which was never on the cards.

I don't think its a massive issue at all and indeed think it was sensible for Charing Cross to not have a direct Greenwich service (Southeastern need to go even further with terminal "rationalisation" in my view but the locals are always up in arms about it) due to the significant conflicts it causes. People say changing at London Bridge is a pain with the new station but any seasoned, regular traveller has a choice of two escalators to head down, a wide open concourse and back up again (to either Thameslink or a Cannon St starter) so is not awful. I just think it was a bit sneaky to suggest the reason a direct service being lost was due to the Thameslink programme and many thought it was physically impossible, yet then seeing a Thameslink service go that way. Probably not the best communication and Rainham was definitely an afterthought after Windmill Bridge Junction just couldn't cope with more tph that way.

As for the Ashford service, that seems to have really gone nowhere fast.
 

zin92

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At a pinch: the junction protected by 2744 signal is the spur allowing up GTR services to access the core after joining from the Greenwich line at NKE and crossing the CST lines.

The longer highlighted section appears to be the Kent reversible(?) - used interchangeably with the up and down Kent fast lines to relieve congestion.
Thanks for your reply.

You're right that Thameslink services from Greenwich to London Bridge turn left at the junction protected by 2744. However I'm wondering what trains would ever go straight on at this junction (or use the section that's straight ahead in the opposite direction).

Regards
 
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