Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[Nicholas Lewis]

From BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64191654

Train drivers have been offered a 4% pay rise for two years in a row by the body which represents rail companies, the BBC understands.

The Rail Delivery Group (RDG) has made its first offer to Aslef, the union for train drivers, after several strikes.

The deal includes a backdated pay rise of 4% for 2022 and a 4% increase this year, but it also hinges on changes to working practices.

Aslef told the BBC its officials had not seen the offer yet.

The RDG made the offer on Friday after drivers at 15 train companies walked out on Thursday, leaving some operators unable to run any trains.

The action by drivers comes as other rail workers, such as a guards and signalling staff in the RMT union, continued a series of large-scale strikes on Friday.

The RDG said its offer included having no compulsory redundancies until the end of March next year.

If accepted by members, it would mean the average salary for a driver would increase from £60,000 per year to £65,000 by the end of 2023. Ten years ago it was £44,985.

It is understood the deal is contingent on what the the group has described as "common sense, vital and long overdue changes to working arrangements across the industry", which the RDG argues will deliver a more reliable service to passengers.

One of the conditions the RDG has outlined is employers taking control of things like staff, work and training schedules, meaning bosses would not need to agree rotas or train routes with unions.

Other proposed changes include:

A new protocol which would mean drivers who are rostered to work a Sunday shift are committed to doing that unless they can get cover
Reducing time it takes to train drivers through "better use of technology", such as using simulators
Managers deemed as "competent" being allowed to drive trains during disruption on the network
Introducing part-time and flexible working
The RDG said the changes were "vital in a post-Covid world", which has seen leisure travel recover more quickly than commuting has and companies struggling with a big hole in their finances.

It said the offer also looks to "address many inefficient and arcane practices", using a policy of extra payment for the use of technology such as tablets and smartphones as an example.

Steve Montgomery, chair of the Rail Delivery Group, said: "This is a fair and affordable offer in challenging times, providing a significant uplift in salary for train drivers".

He added that the deal would bring in "common-sense" reforms that would allow the railway to adapt to changing travel patterns.

"Instead of staging yet more damaging strike action and holding back changes that will improve services, we urge Aslef to work with us," he said.

Suspect this will get short shrift from ASLEF exec too many conditions

 

[Thirteen]

Surely an offer similar to what ARL offered their drivers would end strikes, I know ARL are managed by TfL but it's the baseline I'd use.

 

[brad465]

Surely an offer similar to what ARL offered their drivers would end strikes, I know ARL are managed by TfL but it's the baseline I'd use.

What was the offer in this case?

 

[Rockhopperr]

I’ve received a message from ASLEF that this is not the case. They’ve received no offer from RDG

 

[Thirteen]

What was the offer in this case?

6.5% was touted by someone here a few weeks back.

 

[john349uk]

Absolutely no chance this will get voted in, major sticking point is going to be that the unions won't get to have a hand in rosters/diagrams etc.

The pay offer is rubbish as well, you could offer 10% for 2 years and I doubt this would get through.

Both sides are absolutely miles apart, could be a while before this is resolved.

 

[brad465]

I’ve received a message from ASLEF that this is not the case. They’ve received no offer from RDG

I wouldn't be surprised if this is an example of leaking something to gauge a reaction, then if the reaction from outsiders is satisfactory towards the offer, put it to ASLEF properly, or something like that. It won't be first time leaking a story to gauge support levels on any given political story has happened.

6.5% was touted by someone here a few weeks back.

Thanks for confirming.

 

[mandub]

What industry body genuinely seeking a resolution would.....

A). Release the details of the offer via social media without actually contacting the union in question and presenting them with the proposal.

B). Include within the "offer" comparisons with nurses & care workers salaries. Is that supposed to persuade Aslef members in the hope the offer will be looked on favourably?

It's almost as if it's a non serious offer not even aimed at Aslef and is a publicity stunt/public relations exercise requiring Aslef to not even put the offer to members (if they get around to making the offer to Aslef).

Rubbish really.
No end in sight if this is what the RDG are doing.




Full text of the RDG press release here - https://media.raildeliverygroup.com...-aslef-to-drive-up-performance-for-passengers

 

[Mak1981]

Think the next round of talks are due Monday, I'd wager that that is when this "leaked" offer was due to be presented

 

[dk1]

It’s a long way off becoming a deal breaker but suppose it’s a start. Not sure it’ll go anywhere but trying to think positively.

 

[O L Leigh]

Some of the condition reported in the article posted are similar to what a lot of TOCs already do, such as committed Sundays and use of simulators for training, but some that I’d need to see the actual text of the proposal to even fully understand before commenting further. It’s a hard one to judge, and obviously will provoke a whole range of different reactions.

Not sure why the details have come out like this, as clearly the offer has yet to be put before ASLEF at any level. It’s certainly looking like a political move, as it’s going to be floating around out there over the weekend before it’s discussed by those actually undertaking the negotiations.

Let’s see what develops next.

 

[dk1]

Some of the condition reported in the article posted are similar to what a lot of TOCs already do, such as committed Sundays and use of simulators for training, but some that I’d need to see the actual text of the proposal to even fully understand before commenting further. It’s a hard one to judge, and obviously will provoke a whole range of different reactions.

Not sure why the details have come out like this, as clearly the offer has yet to be put before ASLEF at any level. It’s certainly looking like a political move, as it’s going to be floating around out there over the weekend before it’s discussed by those actually undertaking the negotiations.

Let’s see what develops next.

Agreed. It seems a very strange & somewhat unprofessional approach by RDG but then I suppose on previous conduct we shouldn’t be surprised.

 

[Silverlinky]

6.5% was touted by someone here a few weeks back.

Which has set a precedent for the future as they always received RPI based on a Feb/March figure.....was 8.2% this year so they've accepted less than they normally do.

They already have a lot of DOO, have contracted Sundays (1 in 2 at some depots) and suchlike.

Anyway, the RDG offer is also out there in the form of a press release from their media department, more details on the strings and other items not mentioned in the BBC article.

Link: https://media.raildeliverygroup.com...-aslef-to-drive-up-performance-for-passengers

 

[driver9000]

Agreed. It seems a very strange & somewhat unprofessional approach by RDG but then I suppose on previous conduct we shouldn’t be surprised.

I wouldn't expect professional conduct from Westminster these days. This is a tried and tested method to gauge how the public (and rail staff) will react to this "proposal" over the weekend on social media and forums. Then they can open the meetings on Monday with that as a weapon in their pockets, I just hope they have sensible discussions that both sides can eventually agree upon.

 

[ComUtoR]

Some of the condition reported in the article posted are similar to what a lot of TOCs already do, such as committed Sundays and use of simulators for training, but some that I’d need to see the actual text of the proposal to even fully understand before commenting further. It’s a hard one to judge, and obviously will provoke a whole range of different reactions.

Which is the problem of having your wage negotiations being made in public. This release by RDG really is complete and utter [insert expletive] and is another political attempt at changing the conversation.

IF, and it isn't, what the RDG are saying is true; then this has been sent to all TOCs involved in the current strikes and those under the DfT. This cannot be the case as you explained. Some TOCs already have those terms and conditions already in their contract. What would also be epically stupid, so I don't believe this is the case, is that the RDG are trying to agree terms on a national basis, rather than the individual TOCs concerned. What may be happening, and this I'm not 100% sur eof, is that they are going down the route of a 'framework' approach whereby all TOCs agree to a basic set of principles but then hash it out locally. This would also be stupid because nobody will vote for such broad and generic terms. I also spotted some rather odd clauses that cannot be applied for other reasons.

Let’s see what develops next.

Agreed. If the agreement was presented to our TOC I know the result would be a resounding no. I will hold fire and see what actually gets offered to my TOC.

 

[whoosh]

"We urge ASLEF to work with us," yet haven't actually had the decency to sit down and have a meeting and actually make a formal offer.


ASLEF General Secretary Mick Wheelan says:

"Simon Weller, ASLEF’s assistant general secretary, Andy Hudd, the EC vice-president, and I are meeting the Rail Minister, Huw Merriman, on Monday. A meeting at which I will make it clear that the ‘offer’ the DfT – or Number 10 – leaked to The Sun earlier this week falls well short of what we expect. I shall also tell him that if the government thinks it can negotiate with us via the pages of The Sun or the Daily Mail and make an offer that is merely a sleight of hand – it is, in fact, the offer which was made, verbally, to the RMT just before Christmas, so some people, or some newspapers, may well have got their wires crossed – and an offer that none of our negotiators have seen, then they are very much mistaken."

 

[baz962]

Which has set a precedent for the future as they always received RPI based on a Feb/March figure.....was 8.2% this year so they've accepted less than they normally do.

They already have a lot of DOO, have contracted Sundays (1 in 2 at some depots) and suchlike.

Anyway, the RDG offer is also out there in the form of a press release from their media department, more details on the strings and other items not mentioned in the BBC article.

Link: https://media.raildeliverygroup.com...-aslef-to-drive-up-performance-for-passengers

Was touted by me. I'm an ex overground driver with many ex colleagues and my best friend still there. It's being voted on and that's why they weren't on strike yesterday. Sunday is inside the week and around 26 a year at all depots except chingford, which are outside the week and not compulsory. At other depots they do have a couple of drivers that were in non Sunday links, but all newer drivers and those that chose to have the Sundays in. But bear in mind that overground is on behalf of tfl and not Dft/Rdg .

 

[Mak1981]

I also note the lack of any mention of DOO in that apparent offer

 

[ComUtoR]

Yep, its a framework agreement. Just had a ping internally saying that this would be subject to acceptance and still subject to agreements and local talks.

 

[dk1]

I also note the lack of any mention of DOO in that apparent offer

Good job really. It’s particularly good as it is let alone mentioning that old chestnut. Something seems very dubious about this press release.

 

[bramling]

Which has set a precedent for the future as they always received RPI based on a Feb/March figure.....was 8.2% this year so they've accepted less than they normally do.

They already have a lot of DOO, have contracted Sundays (1 in 2 at some depots) and suchlike.

Anyway, the RDG offer is also out there in the form of a press release from their media department, more details on the strings and other items not mentioned in the BBC article.

Link: https://media.raildeliverygroup.com...-aslef-to-drive-up-performance-for-passengers

Some of those conditions seem unrealistic to me.

In particular, watering down both training and route knowledge requirements. I’m not sure how this can realistically be done without a hit to safety standards. Managers driving during disruption is also a slippery slope, as the moment you get to a situation where managers are being called to take the handle during disruption they then start becoming just another de-facto spare, which means their management tasks won’t be getting done - over time this will cause problems.

Then there’s the idea of a more diverse workforce - whoever thought this was a good idea just doesn’t really get the fact that shifts and unsocial hours are an inherent part of the driving role, the moment you cherry pick particular arrangements to suit certain people someone else has to cover the crap stuff, and this simply doesn’t work. Likewise do we really think it’s a good idea to encourage people into a heavily shift-oriented role who have a string of commitments which will limit their flexibility? It’s all very well saying people sign a contract, but reality is if they can’t get what they want off then they simply go sick. There is already a problem with certain people being attracted by the pound sign, and then once they get to the point of having to work shifts suddenly find they either can’t hack it or do everything possible to treat it as a MF 9-5 holidays off job.

Seems like political meddling rather than anything serious. Haven’t the politicians screwed up enough over the last 3 years?…

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Does this mean that on those TOCs where Sunday working is already included in the week (EMR, Southeastern, SWR etc.), it’ll be coming back out to be committed and classed as overtime instead? I suspect not. ‘Committed’ is all well and good but whilst it is classed as overtime drivers will continue to not come in. How can you be disciplined for not doing a shift that is overtime?

Just do it properly and put it in the working week for everyone.

 

[43066]

Agreed. It seems a very strange & somewhat unprofessional approach by RDG but then I suppose on previous conduct we shouldn’t be surprised.

Good that there’s no DOO. The rostering stuff will be the major sticking point. No mention of movements off spare?

The simulator stuff/managers driving during disruption (will they have time!?) isn’t particularly significant.

 

[Thirteen]

Some of those conditions seem unrealistic to me.

In particular, watering down both training and route knowledge requirements. I’m not sure how this can realistically be done without a hit to safety standards. Managers driving during disruption is also a slippery slope, as the moment you get to a situation where managers are being called to take the handle during disruption they then start becoming just another de-facto spare, which means their management tasks won’t be getting done - over time this will cause problems.

Then there’s the idea of a more diverse workforce - whoever thought this was a good idea just doesn’t really get the fact that shifts and unsocial hours are an inherent part of the driving role, the moment you cherry pick particular arrangements to suit certain people someone else has to cover the crap stuff, and this simply doesn’t work. Likewise do we really think it’s a good idea to encourage people into a heavily shift-oriented role who have a string of commitments which will limit their flexibility? It’s all very well saying people sign a contract, but reality is if they can’t get what they want off then they simply go sick. There is already a problem with certain people being attracted by the pound sign, and then once they get to the point of having to work shifts suddenly find they either can’t hack it or do everything possible to treat it as a MF 9-5 holidays off job.

Seems like political meddling rather than anything serious. Haven’t the politicians screwed up enough over the last 3 years?…

The diverse workforce doesn't seem that unrealistic, even Mick Whelan said a few years back he wants less drivers to look like him although don't think that can achieve with part time contracts.

 

[175001]

Its yet another press release coincided with a weekend. Its nothing more than bait

 

[dk1]

Good that there’s no DOO. The rostering stuff will be the major sticking point. No mention of movements off spare?

The simulator stuff/managers driving during disruption (will they have time!?) isn’t particularly significant.

The points mentioned are fairly irrelevant for me personally. Sundays are committed, DSMs already drive on strike days, & simulators are a major part of training anyway. As you say roster movements off spare will be a stumbling block as will part time driving. We only accept ill health or family friendly with less than 35hrs. Everything else has to be job share.

 

[bramling]

The diverse workforce doesn't seem that unrealistic, even Mick Whelan said a few years back he wants less drivers to look like him although don't think that can achieve with part time contracts.

It’s one thing expressing a desire, but it’s quite another having a realistic plan to make it workable. Firstly how do you cream off the nice stuff for person A, without person B picking up a disproportionate amount of crap? Secondly, and especially in an industry where we are allegedly supposed to be reducing costs, how do we reconcile that a part-time driver is likely to need 100% of the training time and expense, but who by definition is only going to be partly productive compared to a full-time driver? LU tried this with the night tube, not through choice, and couldn’t get rid of it quick enough.

So the left hand wants more flexibility, yet the right hand seems to want to implement stuff which is inherently less flexible.

 

[Sleepy]

Drivers I know are laughing their socks off at this "offer"

 

[MDB1images]

W

Agreed. It seems a very strange & somewhat unprofessional approach by RDG but then I suppose on previous conduct we shouldn’t be surprised.

Agree totally, a bizarre way of conducting negotiations.

 

[choochoochoo]

Using simulators for training to reduce the training time. Do the RDG/Government think that TOCs have airline style 6 degree of freedom simulators ?

A lot of train driving is seat of the pants feeling the track. You're not going to get that in most of the laughable 'sims' TOCs currently have.