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Train removed from timetable due to industrial action

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dvboy

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If your train has been removed from the timetable due to industrial action but you hold an advance ticket for it, what are your rights if you need to travel and therefore a refund and not travelling is not an option. Does the operator still have an obligation to get you to your destination? Should ticket acceptance with other operators be in place?

The Chiltern Railways website is, probably intentionally, rather vague.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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If your train has been removed from the timetable due to industrial action but you hold an advance ticket for it, what are your rights if you need to travel and therefore a refund and not travelling is not an option. Does the operator still have an obligation to get you to your destination? Should ticket acceptance with other operators be in place?

The Chiltern Railways website is, probably intentionally, rather vague.

Standard conditions are you can travel on the following service or one around a similar departure time the day before or the day after, partly depending if that route has a service or not on days with industrial action.
 

jayah

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Standard conditions are you can travel on the following service or one around a similar departure time the day before or the day after, partly depending if that route has a service or not on days with industrial action.
I can't believe a condition says anything that vague?
 

dvboy

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Standard conditions are you can travel on the following service or one around a similar departure time the day before or the day after, partly depending if that route has a service or not on days with industrial action.
What if the cancelled service is the last one scheduled of the day?
 

HamworthyGoods

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What if the cancelled service is the last one scheduled of the day?

Railways are not obliged to provide transport when there’s industrial action. You are advised to check before travelling to make sure it isn’t cancelled.
 

Watershed

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If your train has been removed from the timetable due to industrial action but you hold an advance ticket for it, what are your rights if you need to travel and therefore a refund and not travelling is not an option. Does the operator still have an obligation to get you to your destination? Should ticket acceptance with other operators be in place?

The Chiltern Railways website is, probably intentionally, rather vague.
Your rights are exactly the same as if the train had been cancelled for any other reason.

The first port of call is that you may take an earlier or later train that complies with the route or company restrictions on your Advance. As a special "easement" during industrial action, you can usually also travel at a similar time up to one day before your booked travel date, and in most cases up until a few days after the end of the industrial action.

If you still want to travel on your booked date and the cancellation means it's impossible to get to your destination in accordance with the route or company restrictions on your Advance, then NRCoT 28.2 is engaged. This requires both the TOC that you had intended to use, as well as any other TOCs that could assist you (e.g. because they run services you could use instead), to arrange ticket acceptance or to accept your ticket as necessary to complete your journey by alternative services.

If it's impossible to complete your journey by train, then NRCoT 28.2 further requires any TOC that's reasonably able to assist (e.g. they manage or have staff at the station where you're waiting) to provide you with alternative transport (e.g. a bus or taxi), or overnight accommodation if that's not practicable.

I should point out, however, that the above is merely the legal position. It doesn't necessarily mean that vindicating your rights will be as easy or straightforward as it should be; indeed, it might be necessary to pay for alternative transport or accommodation out of pocket and then to recover these costs from the TOC afterwards. Before incurring any expenses, it would be advisable to get clear evidence of a refusal to arrange/pay for this - e.g. written correspondence from the relevant TOC (this could come from contacting one of their social media channels, for instance).

Railways are not obliged to provide transport when there’s industrial action. You are advised to check before travelling to make sure it isn’t cancelled.
This is a common refrain but I'm afraid it's simply not correct. But it clearly suits the TOCs for people to think that it's the case!
 
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Snow1964

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Railways are not obliged to provide transport when there’s industrial action. You are advised to check before travelling to make sure it isn’t cancelled.

What about events of not action (event short of action) eg a voluntary overtime ban.

Does that also get a waiver from obligation ?
 

island

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Railways are not obliged to provide transport when there’s industrial action. You are advised to check before travelling to make sure it isn’t cancelled.
They are obliged to provide transport to ticket holders who purchased tickets before knowing of the industrial action.

However, getting them to meet this obligation may not be straightforward.
 

dvboy

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Your rights are exactly the same as if the train had been cancelled for any other reason.

The first port of call is that you may take an earlier or later train that complies with the route or company restrictions on your Advance. As a special "easement" during industrial action, you can usually also travel at a similar time up to one day before your booked travel date, and in most cases up until a few days after the end of the industrial action.

If you still want to travel on your booked date and the cancellation means it's impossible to get to your destination in accordance with the route or company restrictions on your Advance, then NRCoT 28.2 is engaged. This requires both the TOC that you had intended to use, as well as any other TOCs that could assist you (e.g. because they run services you could use instead), to arrange ticket acceptance or to accept your ticket as necessary to complete your journey by alternative services.

If it's impossible to complete your journey by train, then NRCoT 28.2 further requires any TOC that's reasonably able to assist (e.g. they manage or have staff at the station where you're waiting) to provide you with alternative transport (e.g. a bus or taxi), or overnight accommodation if that's not practicable.

I should point out, however, that the above is merely the legal position. It doesn't necessarily mean that vindicating your rights will be as easy or straightforward as it should be; indeed, it might be necessary to pay for alternative transport or accommodation out of pocket and then to recover these costs from the TOC afterwards. Before incurring any expenses, it would be advisable to get clear evidence of a refusal to arrange/pay for this - e.g. written correspondence from the relevant TOC (this could come from contacting one of their social media channels, for instance).
Perfect, thanks for the response.
Wish I had asked earlier but only found out the train had been removed from the timetable the day before travelling and was keen to get it sorted.

Chiltern Railways (by Twitter) weren't keen on arranging ticket acceptance with Avanti West Coast nor would they confirm they would cover the difference between the price of the ticket paid to them and the price of the new ticket purchased to travel with AWC, but I will be asking for this again anyway when I request a refund of the original ticket.
 

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A friend of mine raised a similar point. What happens if you hold an advance ticket for either the Night Riviera or the Caledonian Sleeper when it is cancelled due to industrial action and you wish to travel another day instead of accepting a refund, but all future trains are fully booked?
 

Watershed

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Perfect, thanks for the response.
Wish I had asked earlier but only found out the train had been removed from the timetable the day before travelling and was keen to get it sorted.

Chiltern Railways (by Twitter) weren't keen on arranging ticket acceptance with Avanti West Coast nor would they confirm they would cover the difference between the price of the ticket paid to them and the price of the new ticket purchased to travel with AWC, but I will be asking for this again anyway when I request a refund of the original ticket.
Unfortunately I can't say I'm surprised at your experience. I've rarely come across a TOC that is honest or straightforward to passengers about their legal rights when trains are cancelled in this manner, or that honours requests for ticket acceptance or alternative transport/accommodation.

I certainly wouldn't apply for a refund of your original ticket. Once you obtain a refund, they cease to have any further legal responsibilities towards you or for your journey. That's probably why the TOCs push refunds so hard - it's by far the cheapest and easiest option for them!

Instead, you should ask them to reimburse you for your reasonable costs in buying any new ticket that you were (wrongly) forced to buy to make your journey using alternative operators or routes. You should also claim Delay Repay if you arrived at your ticketed destination 15+ minutes late, though again I would expect an uphill battle on claiming this, as most TOCs claim that they can arbitrarily vary the timetable, without giving you any notice, and then use this as the basis for compensation.

A friend of mine raised a similar point. What happens if you hold an advance ticket for either the Night Riviera or the Caledonian Sleeper when it is cancelled due to industrial action and you wish to travel another day instead of accepting a refund, but all future trains are fully booked?
It's unlikely that all future dates are booked, but perhaps you mean future dates in reasonable vicinity to the original travel date. In such a case, there's the right to change the ticket (free of charge) to travel on an alternative date of the passenger's convenience - subject to availability, of course. Alternatively, if leaving or arriving on the planned date is crucial, GWR or CS would be obliged to arrange transport on alternative operators or modes so as to get the passenger to their destination at the earliest opportunity.
 

island

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For pre-planned industrial action cancellations it is.
No, it isn’t. A ticket holder who bought a ticket prior to the cancellations being known about has a contract to be carried, and the railway cannot randomly cancel the contract.
 

Watershed

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No, it isn’t. A ticket holder who bought a ticket prior to the cancellations being known about has a contract to be carried, and the railway cannot randomly cancel the contract.
And in any event not without notifying the passenger beforehand - which the industry still doesn't do nearly comprehensively or timeously enough.

Of course, a favourite refrain by TOCs is to claim "but it's in the news". This overlooks the fact that there's so much industrial action taking place across the economy and the rail industry at the moment that you can't reasonably be expected to know what is happening to each individual TOC and service, or to look up the details of every journey on the off-chance that it's affected.
 

dvboy

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Of course, a favourite refrain by TOCs is to claim "but it's in the news". This overlooks the fact that there's so much industrial action taking place across the economy and the rail industry at the moment that you can't reasonably be expected to know what is happening to each individual TOC and service, or to look up the details of every journey on the off-chance that it's affected.
Indeed, and Chiltern even sent me an email the day before the journey with the subject "Get ready for your upcoming trip", and although it does say further down the email that you should check your journey, you'd think they'd be capable of sending you something more specific if you'd booked a ticket through their website for one of their trains that's no longer in the timetable. Other operators can manage this.
 

317 forever

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Something like this happened to me on the day of the RMT strike on May 13th. I had booked to go from East Didsbury to Shotton at 6.30 but then they cancelled this and the 7.30 train. In 1 or both cases the trains only started from Chester. I did still ride at 8.30 with my Advance ticket. As it is, I got a cheaper fare than I would have got had I booked the 8.30 in the first place.

There was no option for Delay Repay as there was no such train as a 6.30 any more once I tried to complete the Delay Repay form.

I did email this to Transport for Wales with an attachment of my PDF e-ticket. Not a big deal, but I have not even had a reply.

I think I would have qualified for a refund had I not travelled on the basis that 8.30 was too late.
 

Watershed

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Something like this happened to me on the day of the RMT strike on May 13th. I had booked to go from East Didsbury to Shotton at 6.30 but then they cancelled this and the 7.30 train. In 1 or both cases the trains only started from Chester. I did still ride at 8.30 with my Advance ticket. As it is, I got a cheaper fare than I would have got had I booked the 8.30 in the first place.

There was no option for Delay Repay as there was no such train as a 6.30 any more once I tried to complete the Delay Repay form.

I did email this to Transport for Wales with an attachment of my PDF e-ticket. Not a big deal, but I have not even had a reply.

I think I would have qualified for a refund had I not travelled on the basis that 8.30 was too late.
There's an option to manually enter train times if it doesn't show up in the journey planner. That's what I'd have done.
 

dvboy

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I certainly wouldn't apply for a refund of your original ticket. Once you obtain a refund, they cease to have any further legal responsibilities towards you or for your journey. That's probably why the TOCs push refunds so hard - it's by far the cheapest and easiest option for them!

Instead, you should ask them to reimburse you for your reasonable costs in buying any new ticket that you were (wrongly) forced to buy to make your journey using alternative operators or routes. You should also claim Delay Repay if you arrived at your ticketed destination 15+ minutes late, though again I would expect an uphill battle on claiming this, as most TOCs claim that they can arbitrarily vary the timetable, without giving you any notice, and then use this as the basis for compensation.
Struggling to understand the difference here. Journey has been made so any further legal responsibilities are a moot point.
Unused Chiltern ticket was £14, used Avanti ticket was £18.
Either they reimburse me £18 for the Avanti ticket, or refund me the £14 for their ticket plus the difference between that and Avanti's ticket of £4, which is still £18.
I have asked for this plus compensation for the inconvenience of arriving at my destination later, and also having to apply for the refund by post (amazingly in 2023 this was the only way). Waiting for a response.
 

Watershed

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Struggling to understand the difference here. Journey has been made so any further legal responsibilities are a moot point.
Unused Chiltern ticket was £14, used Avanti ticket was £18.
Either they reimburse me £18 for the Avanti ticket, or refund me the £14 for their ticket plus the difference between that and Avanti's ticket of £4, which is still £18.
I have asked for this plus compensation for the inconvenience of arriving at my destination later, and also having to apply for the refund by post (amazingly in 2023 this was the only way). Waiting for a response.
The further legal responsibilities would be to reimburse your costs for alternative transport or accommodation and pay delay compensation.

A refund only applies if you do not travel at all, and wish to accept that the contract is at an end and that they do not have any legal responsibilities towards you other than giving you back what you paid. As frustrating as it is, accepting a refund is inadvisable as they would then be quite entitled to turn around and refuse to reimburse any further costs.
 

dvboy

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Having put a request in to Chiltern by post sometime around the time of my last post, I'm yet to hear anything.
Does anyone know how long I should expect a response?
 
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