Train walk round unnecessary waste of time ?

[notadriver]

Shapps has spotted a once-in-a-lifetime chance to give Britain world-class railways | Conservative Home

The Transport Secretary has set up a reform committee which is getting ready to use the pandemic to rout the Luddites in the rail unions.

www.conservativehome.com

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Nothing, evidently, must be done to put safety at risk. But just as it is no longer necessary to check the oil in a car by opening the bonnet and inspecting the dipstick, for there is a light on the dashboard which will tell you if more oil is needed, so it is no longer necessary for each train to be checked every 24 hours by a driver who walks all round it at ground level, on a path wide enough to keep out of the way of other trains, and well lit enough to be used at night.

The unions insist on this ritual, which has become a ridiculous waste of the highly paid driver’s time, and of taxpayers’ money. Like modern cars, modern trains tell you when something goes wrong.

Walk round unnecessary?

 

[Darandio]

Might as well do away with it for planes as well. They tell you when something goes wrong as well, right?

 

[NSE]

I have never worked on the railway so these are my own general observations. But I think often, in all walks of life, people continue practices solely because they have always done them and therefore haven't stopped, despite something arriving to make them redundant. This strikes me as possibly one of those practices. That said, I have not worked on a railway so there could be a very good reason why it should still carry on. Change is good and it can help improve things. But, as I said, I don't work on the railways, so this might be moot in this particular example!

 

[Ianno87]

It would be interesting to know how often the walk around finds something amiss that otherwise would not have been detected.

The obvious point also being that trains do a darn sight more mileage every day than a typical car.

 

[Domh245]

1. They'll only tell you if there's something wrong if they monitor it in the first place - I think even on the most modern of trains they don't monitor everything - They can tell you if there's a motor fault, they won't spot a wheel flat or a loose piece of equipment. A huge number of trains on the network will only just about tell you if an engine dies
2. They're not foolproof, my car has a light that'll come on if the oil gets too low - it stayed resolutely off despite the oil dropping well off the bottom of the dipstick. Given the reliability (or apparent lack thereof) of modern trains I certainly wouldn't fancy the chances of fault detecting sensors actually doing that

 

[Taunton]

If you told any aircraft pilot, even those of the smallest ones, that the walk round every trip was unnecessary, they would tell you that you are an idiot. If you are going for a flight test, even for a basic private plane licence, the examiner will always covertly snag an item for the walkaround to see if you spot it.

Notably this didn't evolve from any union job-preservation approach or requirement, as airline pilots are paid by the flight hour, which all the necessary preliminaries make no impact on.

 

[Dr Hoo]

To help this thread along could somebody in the industry comment on whether anybody else besides the driver ever 'walks round the train'. For example, does a fitter or 'carriage and wagon examiner' also walk round and identify anything needing attention? (I appreciate that some trains are stabled away from a 'depot' and hence are unlikely to be seen by a fitter every day.)

 

[boxerdog]

Might as well do away with it for planes as well. They tell you when something goes wrong as well, right?

So, the train is stabled at a remote location, no security etc. Local vandals decide to open a few panels. Driver jumps in, off they go. First platform rips said panels off or slices someone. Sounds risky to me....

 

[geoffk]

I steeled myself to read this Conservative Home article. Actually there are some good points in it, especially the last one - "the greatest inefficiency within the rail system is the Time Delay Attribution mechanism. This merry-go-round of cash and blame achieves little and certainly doesn't help the passengers or taxpayers."

 

[GB]

Walk round unnecessary?

If you wait for engine/oil light to come on before you do checks then you are a fool. Checks, be it train or car, are designed to highlight future (potentially serious) issues before they become a problem.

 

[jfowkes]

Hilarious that the article talks about lack of train industry specific knowledge in the DfT causing problems, but then itself goes and make grand claims about what's possible in the industry from a position of total ignorance.

 

[CAF397]

Daily walk around highlight issues with the train that aren't monitored by computers.

Open maintenance hatches, loose fuel caps, damaged lifeguards/obstacle deflectors etc.

 

[Elecman]

So, the train is stabled at a remote location, no security etc. Local vandals decide to open a few panels. Driver jumps in, off they go. First platform rips said panels off or slices someone. Sounds risky to me....

That has happened on depots, I know as I’ve seen it happen and had to deal with the aftermath damage to the depot equipment!!

 

[David M]

it is no longer necessary to check the oil in a car by opening the bonnet and inspecting the dipstick, for there is a light on the dashboard which will tell you if more oil is needed

I think you will find that your engine oil light will come on when your oil level is dangerously low. It certainly shouldn't be used as a guide as to when your oil should be topped up.

 

[heedfan]

This is a moronic article written by a fool who clearly has no understanding of the industry, or is simply trying to troll.

Comparing a car's oil light coming on to a full walk round of a train is actually absurd.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Modern trains with TMSs will alert you to some issues that can be picked up by sensors/electronics. They can't alert you to many physical problems. Also, by the time it is alerting you to low levels of things, you now have a train needing to be taken out of service and/or now an imminent failure, potentially miles from the nearest depot, either blocking routes or at best having to dump passengers miles from where they want to be. A second passenger train perhaps also now being taken out of service/disrupted having to provide assistance.

Or we can carry on as we are, where physical checks are made every 24 hours, and things such as sand levels monitored before they get low and require the train to come out of service, or worse problems identified.

 

[matt_world2004]

Bus Drivers in London are supposed to do a walk Round check before commencing their journey and signing that there are no defects or filling in a form listing defects and the end of each route trip. They are also supposed to check the interior of the bus for unattended bags left behind.

 

[choochoochoo]

To help this thread along could somebody in the industry comment on whether anybody else besides the driver ever 'walks round the train'. For example, does a fitter or 'carriage and wagon examiner' also walk round and identify anything needing attention? (I appreciate that some trains are stabled away from a 'depot' and hence are unlikely to be seen by a fitter every day.)

If they're so bothered about paying 'driver's wages' for a walk around check, then could they not create a train preparers job role on slightly less?

Personally, I think walking around the train is important. I've seen beading/seals come off windows, all sorts of wheel damage and door lighting amiss to recall a few.

Don't think any TMS is going to tell me about those. Don't think TMS could tell me there's a dead bird covering my tail lights either !!

 

[MissPWay]

A driver doesn’t walk round to see if the train is “broken” or “needing oil.” The driver walks round to make sure the train is safe to move, nothing is connected still that shouldn’t be and that there’s no fitters still wedged inside a bogie somewhere.

The conservatives should stick to bunting taxpayer cash to their mates and general corruption, leave transport safety to people who know what they’re doing.

 

[PhilipRdNGauge]

If they're so bothered about paying 'driver's wages' for a walk around check, then could they not create a train preparers job role on slightly less?

Personally, I think walking around the train is important. I've seen beading/seals come off windows, all sorts of wheel damage and door lighting amiss to recall a few.

Don't think any TMS is going to tell me about those. Don't think TMS could tell me there's a dead bird covering my tail lights either !!

No leave it to the first driver, he has a very personal incentive for check that all the inspection covers are locked & nothing is about to fall off. Wasn't there a major crash out of Paddington caused by a hatch not being secured. Same reason why the pilot does the walk round & doesn't leave it to the ground crew.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be interesting to know how often the walk around finds something amiss that otherwise would not have been detected.

The obvious point also being that trains do a darn sight more mileage every day than a typical car.

Though the difference from planes being that most things that go wrong with them are much more serious than stopping a train for a bit while it gets fixed. Wheeltapping may still have some safety benefits (and the Swiss still do it!) but do we? I don't think so? Does a walk-around include an in-depth check of the braking systems?

 

[PhilipRdNGauge]

I steeled myself to read this Conservative Home article. Actually there are some good points in it, especially the last one - "the greatest inefficiency within the rail system is the Time Delay Attribution mechanism. This merry-go-round of cash and blame achieves little and certainly doesn't help the passengers or taxpayers."

I also thought the merry-go-round of cash & blame was the major reason for privatisation in the first place. All those jobs for accountants & lawyers, shuffling papers about & raking a percentage off the top. Nationalised industries weren't very efficient, but the subsidy that went in generally went to the people who did the work. Privatised services may be more efficient, but cost more because half the money that goes in, goes to the extra layers of middle-men & their lawyers & accountants.

 

[choochoochoo]

No leave it to the first driver, he has a very personal incentive for check that all the inspection covers are locked & nothing is about to fall off. Wasn't there a major crash out of Paddington caused by a hatch not being secured. Same reason why the pilot does the walk round & doesn't leave it to the ground crew.

Not always the case that the driver drives the train they're checking.

At our TOC other drivers may prepare the first train you're driving out in the morning. So they may have no skin in the game as they say these days.

Though the difference from planes being that most things that go wrong with them are much more serious than stopping a train for a bit while it gets fixed. Wheeltapping may still have some safety benefits (and the Swiss still do it!) but do we? I don't think so? Does a walk-around include an in-depth check of the braking systems?

You could argue that on planes this is compensated for by built in redundancy. Something that's not really designed into trains.

 

[LowLevel]

Though the difference from planes being that most things that go wrong with them are much more serious than stopping a train for a bit while it gets fixed. Wheeltapping may still have some safety benefits (and the Swiss still do it!) but do we? I don't think so? Does a walk-around include an in-depth check of the braking systems?

It involves checking cab equipment works which includes checking the brake applies and releases in each cab. Modern trains have self proving brakes so a check that the pads or discs are actually applying is unnecessary.

My main problem with train prep as it now is is that it is often done as a box ticking exercise. I've lost count of the number of trains I've boarded at the start of the day with things like corridor connection doors unlocked or door faults or tail lights on in the middle of the formation simply because the depot driver preps train after train for hours and they all become a blur. Some drivers are very diligent about it, others less so.

The above for me actual promotes the requirement for the check as for whatever reason a train that went to "bed" in working order can develop faults while stood overnight, particularly electrical ones, if things like recalcitrant relays or solenoids decide to stick in the wrong state. If you find it on prep you often have time to get a fitter to fix it. If you find it when you're dispatching the train it can cause delays and cancellations.

It isn't my job to prep my train as a guard at my TOC but I still have a walk through it before it enters service and it's amazing what you can find.

 

[MissPWay]

Though the difference from planes being that most things that go wrong with them are much more serious than stopping a train for a bit while it gets fixed. Wheeltapping may still have some safety benefits (and the Swiss still do it!) but do we? I don't think so? Does a walk-around include an in-depth check of the braking systems?

Depending on the “braking system,” it will be checked when the train is prepped. This may or may not be by the driver. Modern stock will self-check its brakes when you start it, so that is something that it will usually flag up.

It’s not clear if they’re referring to train-prep or train mobilisation in the article above.

I’ve read a lot of your posts and I’m sure you’ll be very understanding next time the job is stopped and you are delayed because of a train “just stopping somewhere whilst it’s fixed.”

 

[greatkingrat]

Surely this depends on individual TOC policies? There is nothing in the rule book to say you have to walk round a train every 24 hours.

At my TOC, all preps are done by fitters. If a train is stabled at a platform overnight it isn't going to be possible to walk round it anyway..

 

[Whistler40145]

What on earth do politicians know about trains and carrying out safety checks?

 

[MissPWay]

What on earth do politicians know about trains and carrying out safety checks?

They know that there’s myriad ways to make the railway more efficient and save money, but then their mates would lose out.

They also know if they use the words “highly paid,” and “Union,” they can dog whistle the usual suspects into a frothing rage about nothing.

 

[6Gman]

So, the train is stabled at a remote location, no security etc. Local vandals decide to open a few panels. Driver jumps in, off they go. First platform rips said panels off or slices someone. Sounds risky to me....

I am reminded of an accident involving a Class 52 'Western' some years ago (well, it would be now wouldn't it...) involving a hatch door being open, catching a lineside fitting with serious consequences. [EDIT. Ealing 1973, unsecured battery cover, ten fatalities.]

I'm also reminded of the nonsense a year or two back claiming that PNBs were a hangover from the days of steam and since staff no longer shovel coal they don't need the breaks.

I read the article as simply seizing an opportunity to "break" the unions.

The above for me actual promotes the requirement for the check as for whatever reason a train that went to "bed" in working order can develop faults while stood overnight, particularly electrical ones, if things like recalcitrant relays or solenoids decide to stick in the wrong state. If you find it on prep you often have time to get a fitter to fix it. If you find it when you're dispatching the train it can cause delays and cancellations.

It isn't my job to prep my train as a guard at my TOC but I still have a walk through it before it enters service and it's amazing what you can find.

Wasn't there a recent incident where a train had been left in "good order" overnight, but someone had "meddled" overnight (some training as I recall) which left things in different order on departure?

 

[dctraindriver]

Baiting their readers to turn their attention on pay of drivers and supposedly unions holding the country to ransom. Bring it on.