Trainline Nightmare with their mobile tickets!

[Wolfie]

Hi,
I'm hoping you can help me, though I think the answer may be I can't win as trainline say they have no complaints process. This is my story from my recent journey. I hope I don't seem naive for getting a mobile ticket in the first place but I had no indication it would disappear after one day.

For my first proper family holiday in 3 years I bought train tickets at £240 (2 adults/1 child with railcard) from Trainline with the assumption I'd be getting safe tickets for travel and nothing would go wrong. I bought an off peak open return a month in advance to get the best deal after checking National Rail guidelines that we could break our journey overnight on the return journey. We were travelling 7 hours up to Aviemore from Leeds, having 4 days there, then 2 nights in Edinbugh to break our long journey.
I purchased a mobile ticket after reading on the Trainline website that this worked exactly the same as an e ticket, and I had safely travelled on e tickets several times before. There was nothing to suggest this wouldn't be the case.
After travelling up on our outbound portion, which you activate before travel, I realised that the ticket disappeared off the app on the second day. I was a bit nervous so I got in touch with Trainline customer service Tues 12th before travelling to Edinburgh on Thursday 14th. I needed reassurance that this ticket would be fine, but instead Trainline told me that you could NOT break your journey overnight and the ticket only lasted one day. Trainline said that this rule was national rail regulations not theirs.
I had several days back and forth and each time Trainline said I'd have to purchase a separate ticket for one of the journeys, that they could not replace my mobile ticket with an e ticket, and this was National Rail rules and they just sold the tickets.
The day before the travel to Edinburgh I called national rail and checked and they confirmed that my ticket (validation code 3V) was fine for breaking journey overnight I just needed to travel on off peak trains. The national rail worker kindly put us on a threeway conference call with Trainline. Trainline continued to insist that both I and National Rail were wrong, and that there was nothing they could do about the ticket they had sold me.
I asked if they could replace the ticket with 2 separate journeys, or an e ticket, or pick up a paper ticket from Aviemore train station or to refund me my return portion but they refused all of it.
In the end Nat Rail advised I could chance it and explain to the conductor but this would be at their discretion so I may be fined/made to pay another ticket at cost of £113.
I had at this point escalated my issue via email to Trainline to speak to a manager and was assured this would happen in 48- 72 hrs.
I chanced the journey with an unactivated ticket, but was terrified throughout as I was illegally travelling with an unactivated ticket. If staff had made me activate ticket I'd have had to pay £200 on the next train from Edinburgh to Leeds by this late point.
After arriving in Edinburgh I raised the issue with Trainline on Twitter who agreed that I was right, I could break my journey. They then advised me that with their mobile tickets you should travel with unactivated ticket "on discretion of service staff" which would be the same as travelling without a ticket.
I tried for 7 days to speak to a manager via email on Trainline. (Their phone service is £3.60 a minute) Every day a customer service rep responded to say a manager will be back to me in 48-72 hours. No manager responded. A manager responded on day 8, with one line saying I can't have a refund if used ticket, giving no indication she had any knowledge or awareness of the actual complaint, only that she thought I wanted a refund. I am still messaging them to say it's a formal complaint, they answer every day to say "sorry you can't break your journey" or "we can't refund you as you have activated your ticket"
I want the following:
1. Trainline to accept they gave me wrong advice over email, for several days, which contradicts the advice given to me by Trainline via Twitter, and National Rail.
2. Trainline to accept their website does not make clear mobile tickets are not usable over 2 days, and in the same way other tickets are. Trainline to amend their website to warn other customers.
3. Trainline to compensate me only for the journey where I was forced to travel without a valid ticket, for £113 which is the cost from Aviemore to Edinburgh for 2 adults and 1 child.
4. Trainline to accept they have not sufficiently managed my complaint so far.

Is there anything else I can do?

The only other thing, which would only apply if you had to actually purchase another ticket, is sue the ass off the usual clowns through the county court small claims channel.

I actually might be tempted to do so for the phone charges, if any, incurred as a result of their rubbish. I would also ensure that the media were aware.

If their "advice" is stated in any advert of their's then perhaps a complaint to the Advertising Standards Agency might be useful.

A very good call.

 

[Tabitha]

Are these problematic m-tickets expiring the return ticket portions at midnight on the initial day of use, whether the journey is completed or not? Is that it?

yes, that's exactly it

 

[reb0118]

As an aside I worked the 23:45 from Glasgow to Edinburgh last night. A significant proportion of passengers had m-tickets. Most were the return portions of Off Peak Day Returns (CDR) with a few Off Peak Returns (SVR) & the usual other tickets not germane to this discussion.

After midnight any CDR that I scanned was automatically rejected as expired even though the ticket remains valid until 04:30 and continues to be valid on a through train until complete.

Apart from being time consuming to constantly change my screen back to "accept" this wasn't a major issue as I'm aware that the ticket remains valid.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Do e-tickets work correctly with return leg overnight break of journey? I don't really like paper tickets, but with breaks of journey I still use paper

E-tickets work fine. They are a different breed to m-tickets.
As someone who shunned anything other than orange paper tickets until very recently I'm now a big fan of them.

 

[Hadders]

As an aside I worked the 23:45 from Glasgow to Edinburgh last night. A significant proportion of passengers had m-tickets. Most were the return portions of Off Peak Day Returns (CDR) with a few Off Peak Returns (SVR) & the usual other tickets not germane to this discussion.

After midnight any CDR that I scanned was automatically rejected as expired even though the ticket remains valid until 04:30 and continues to be valid on a through train until complete.

Apart from being time consuming to constantly change my screen back to "accept" this wasn't a major issue as I'm aware that the ticket remains valid.

You know this, as you take an interest in this sort of thing, but how many of your colleagues do, especially if the ticket is an Off PeK Return being used over multiple days.

 

[skyhigh]

You know this, as you take an interest in this sort of thing, but how many of your colleagues do, especially if the ticket is an Off PeK Return being used over multiple days.

I would be interested to know what software is being used for scanning, as the ones we use deal with usage past midnight fine.

 

[Mikw]

So, having never used an M Ticket is it correct to say they just dissappear even when they are still valid - that's a bit unfair on the purchaser to say the least

 

[James H]

Yes that is the main point of this thread

 

[Paul Kelly]

I believe that the expiry date is coded into the ticket data, right? It's just a simple test case to verify that it will actually expire at 04:30 after the day of expiry when programming the mobile app.

IF they did that it would be fine for the return portion, but not for the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return, which to the best of my knowledge is still encoded in the data as only valid for 1 day even though overnight break of journey is permitted (i.e. it is effectively valid for 2 days). Generally industry suppliers (ticket issuing systems, journey planner software etc.) need to put special hacks into their systems to make up for the errors in the industry data (and there are many cases of this!).

 

[Tabitha]

So, having never used an M Ticket is it correct to say they just dissappear even when they are still valid - that's a bit unfair on the purchaser to say the least

yes, and they don't make it clear that this happens, so there's no way of knowing before purchase.

 

[kristiang85]

Is it even legal to effectively take something away from a customer that they have legitimately bought? How have these things persisted for so long?

Thank heavens I've never used one.

 

[Mikw]

yes, and they don't make it clear that this happens, so there's no way of knowing before purchase.

It's just bonkers, isn't it?

 

[SteveM70]

I would be interested to know what software is being used for scanning, as the ones we use deal with usage past midnight fine.

I think the problem isn’t what’s being used to do the scanning, but rather that there’s nothing to be scanned

 

[43301]

I think the problem isn’t what’s being used to do the scanning, but rather that there’s nothing to be scanned

Yes, that's what I thought (hence was surprised by the reference above about scanning it after midnight and it showing as invalid.

In the Northern app, the QR code disappears and is replaced by a line of text which says 'This ticket has expired'. Admittedly I've never checked whther this happens on the dot of midnight, but I assume it does.

Can anyone confirm what type of tickets the TPE app issues? They are the TOC I use second-most, after Northern, so would be the obvious one to buy from if they issue e-tickets. Thanks

 

[Tabitha]

Yes, that's what I thought (hence was surprised by the reference above about scanning it after midnight and it showing as invalid.

In the Northern app, the QR code disappears and is replaced by a line of text which says 'This ticket has expired'. Admittedly I've never checked whther this happens on the dot of midnight, but I assume it does.

Can anyone confirm what type of tickets the TPE app issues? They are the TOC I use second-most, after Northern, so would be the obvious one to buy from if they issue e-tickets. Thanks

yes sorry if wasn't clear, the QR code disappears. What they advised me on twitter (but not via email, where they still say its nat rail's issue not theirs) is that I should show the service staff my proof of purchase and it would be at their discretion. I do trust that most staff will be understanding, but it seems insane to have to rely on the goodwill or knowledge of staff rather than on the ticket I've spent a fortune on!

 

[_toommm_]

Yes, that's what I thought (hence was surprised by the reference above about scanning it after midnight and it showing as invalid.

In the Northern app, the QR code disappears and is replaced by a line of text which says 'This ticket has expired'. Admittedly I've never checked whther this happens on the dot of midnight, but I assume it does.

Can anyone confirm what type of tickets the TPE app issues? They are the TOC I use second-most, after Northern, so would be the obvious one to buy from if they issue e-tickets. Thanks

TPE uses a weird hybrid where the in-app tickets expire at midnight IIRC, but they also email the tickets as a PDF which shouldn’t.

Ignore the bit crossed out, the barcodes still show. Here’s a ticket from Tuesday evening still showing a barcode as of Sunday evening:

 

[Tabitha]

I think the problem isn’t what’s being used to do the scanning, but rather that there’s nothing to be scanned

yes, this!

It's just bonkers, isn't it?

so frustrating!

 

[Bensonby]

Which TOC apps offer e-tickets? So far as I can see all the re-badged Trainline sites (Northern, XC, etc) only offer m-tickets. What about the others? The various First TOCs (TPE, GWR, Avanti) use a different app - does that one offer e-tickets?

SWR App uses a QR code which doesn’t require “activating”. I bought tickets accidentally this way the other week as it defaulted to “in app” rather than “collect at station” and I didn’t notice. The (used) return portion that was valid until a date in May is still shown in there with a barcode, whereas the outward portion has had the QR code removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SWR App uses a QR code which doesn’t require “activating”. I bought tickets accidentally this way the other week as it defaulted to “in app” rather than “collect at station” and I didn’t notice. The (used) return portion that was valid until a date in May is still shown in there with a barcode, whereas the outward portion has had the QR code removed.

If activation is not required it's an e-ticket, not an m-ticket. Some FirstGroup apps were selling these without emailing a PDF if you bought it in the app, but I thought that had been fixed.

TPE uses a weird hybrid where the in-app tickets expire at midnight IIRC, but they also email the tickets as a PDF which shouldn’t.

Ignore the bit crossed out, the QR codes still show. Here’s a ticket from Tuesday evening still showing a QR code as of Sunday evening:

View attachment 113551

That's just an e-ticket.

yes, this!


so frustrating!

The most frustrating thing is that ScotRail have just introduced this obsolete and faulty standard. The mind boggles!

 

[_toommm_]

That's just an e-ticket.

Good point, not sure what I was trying to achieve there!

 

[Tabitha]

just wanted to update you on good news! Today I finally got one of the twitter trainline correspondents to look into my issue properly, and she got back to me via email, apologised for the bad customer service, says the developers are aware of the issue with mobile tickets and are looking to fix it, and gave me half my original ticket back as compensation! (£120 so more than I requested).
Thanks all for your help!

 

[Howardh]

If a m ticket expires at midnight yet is still valid the day after, can a screenshot make up for it disappearing?
Also, what if your train departs 2300 and arrives 0020, and your arrival station is gated?

 

[Tabitha]

this i

If a m ticket expires at midnight yet is still valid the day after, can a screenshot make up for it disappearing?
Also, what if your train departs 2300 and arrives 0020, and your arrival station is gated?

this is what I was sent with the final (and first useful!) email:
To clear up any misinformation - multiple breaks of journey are possible with this ticket type. However once Activated, our Mobile tickets cannot be converted into paper or eTickets and, they will no longer be visible after 24-hours. The system incorrectly assumes that the trip is finished and moves the tickets in to a different tab.
I can appreciate that this poses a problem, particularly if the break of journey is over night. As we sell tickets on behalf of the Train Operators, they are aware of this limitation on Mobile tickets and it is standard practice for station and barrier staff, to accept the booking confirmation email or the expired tickets, as proof of purchase to permit travel.

Our developers are aware of the issue and are working on ways to provide a better experience and optimise Mobile tickets, which our customers may wish to use for multiple breaks of journey. While that works is underway, a triage process is in place to deal with these sorts of requests in the meantime. This is not intended as an excuse, I just wanted to let you know that we recognise this is a poor user experience and we take finding the solution seriously.

 

[SteveM70]

this is what I was sent with the final (and first useful!) email:
To clear up any misinformation - multiple breaks of journey are possible with this ticket type. However once Activated, our Mobile tickets cannot be converted into paper or eTickets and, they will no longer be visible after 24-hours. The system incorrectly assumes that the trip is finished and moves the tickets in to a different tab.
I can appreciate that this poses a problem, particularly if the break of journey is over night. As we sell tickets on behalf of the Train Operators, they are aware of this limitation on Mobile tickets and it is standard practice for station and barrier staff, to accept the booking confirmation email or the expired tickets, as proof of purchase to permit travel.

Our developers are aware of the issue and are working on ways to provide a better experience and optimise Mobile tickets, which our customers may wish to use for multiple breaks of journey. While that works is underway, a triage process is in place to deal with these sorts of requests in the meantime. This is not intended as an excuse, I just wanted to let you know that we recognise this is a poor user experience and we take finding the solution seriously.

Well, its progress of a sort I suppose. But:

- "no longer be visible after 24 hours" isn't true, and if publicised will cause as m any problems as it solves (eg a ticket activated at 18:00 is no longer visible after 6 hours, not 24)

- it'd be handy to know what the triage process is

 

[WesternLancer]

just wanted to update you on good news! Today I finally got one of the twitter trainline correspondents to look into my issue properly, and she got back to me via email, apologised for the bad customer service, says the developers are aware of the issue with mobile tickets and are looking to fix it, and gave me half my original ticket back as compensation! (£120 so more than I requested).
Thanks all for your help!

Well done for your persistence!

 

[philthetube]

Fraud has to be wilful, this is just incompetent.

I’d argue that this is wilful, this has been a problem since m-tickets were introduced and I find it very hard to believe that TOC’s don’t know about this issue…

It is not incompetence, they have been aware of the issues and have not done anything about it, or told people of the problems they will encounter. To sell something, knowing that people are not getting what they pay for is fraud.

 

[island]

If a m ticket expires at midnight yet is still valid the day after, can a screenshot make up for it disappearing?
Also, what if your train departs 2300 and arrives 0020, and your arrival station is gated?

I believe you won't be able to take a screenshot of it on an Android phone. On iOS, where apps are not allowed to disable screenshots, the screenshot won't display the animation that m-tickets normally show.

 

[Tabitha]

Well, its progress of a sort I suppose. But:

- "no longer be visible after 24 hours" isn't true, and if publicised will cause as m any problems as it solves (eg a ticket activated at 18:00 is no longer visible after 6 hours, not 24)

- it'd be handy to know what the triage process is

that is true, it was progress for ME personally, but I'm pretty sure any other customers encountering same issue would have same problem - I have no idea what the triage process might be (it clearly wasn't working either if my case was standard). I think I just annoyed them into doing something, maybe by lots of emails and tweeting them and tagging in orgs like Nat Rail or RDG?

 

[43301]

I believe you won't be able to take a screenshot of it on an Android phone. On iOS, where apps are not allowed to disable screenshots, the screenshot won't display the animation that m-tickets normally show.

So far as I know there's nothing to stop screenshots of them on Android - I've done it for delay claims in the past.

 

[reb0118]

As far as most TOCs are concerned screenshots from m-tickets are NOT valid for travel so this is duff advice from The Trainline.

This could potentially create conflict between staff & passengers.