Trains which never arrive on time

[martinsh]

Is there any consistent reason for the Birmingham train being so often late by Stafford? Is a time-loss south of Birmingham being carried forward, or is it actually losing time significantly in the thirty miles north of Birmingham?

Usually delayed by the stopper running late between Birmingham & Wolves.

 

[Deepgreen]

The Minimum correctional time at Leeds is 10 minutes.

I like the idea of stations having correctional times!
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There's 1 London Bridge train, 1 Victoria train in particular that were never on time before the major works started & their punctuality have become steadily abysmal. The 17:59 to London Bridge to Horsham is now late by at least 5-10 mins every day.
The following Thameslink service has to follow it to Redhill so consequently is perennially crawling from East Croydon.

I catch the 0831 from Redhill to Victoria most weekdays, and I have never known it to be on time at Victoria.

 

[The Planner]

Usually delayed by the stopper running late between Birmingham & Wolves.

The Rugeley running late wont help either.

 

[rishton82]

Every time I have used the 19:30 from Euston to Preston it has never been on time in Preston, ok only a few minutes most of the time but still late enough so I cant make the 21:52 home and have to wait for the one after.

 

[Minstral25]

The 18:26/18:55 aren't great but have been on time about 5 times combined since October time; still abysmal I admit. :roll: They're my regular commutes. That or the 18:30 from Blackfriars to Redhill which used to be good, but now ends up being late & using platform 2 at Redhill most days.

I won't argue with a user of the service but according to RecentTrainTimes records neither has arrived right time since October. (I am using on time and not the 5 minutes PPM time, which I referred to in my original post)

On the Blackfriars train it states on time arrival on 6th January.

In either case it is pretty appalling, especially as they extended some journey times in December and a lot last January.
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I catch the 0831 from Redhill to Victoria most weekdays, and I have never known it to be on time at Victoria.

It has a 33% right time arrival on RecentTrainTimes - still not good in any book

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It's a common occurrence on lines where all services are timed to be stopped at stations for the same amount of time, that some of the busier services finish up being stopped for longer than they are timed to be stopped and consequently lose time.

Also on Northern Rail routes a very busy service which is timed as a Sprinter and has a Pacer running it is pretty much guaranteed to lose time.

I find that to be a slur against pacers and ask you to issue an apology

 

[backontrack]

I find that to be a slur against pacers and ask you to issue an apology

Out of the Sprinters, only 158s and 159s have a top speed higher than that of Pacers. All other Sprinters have a top speed of around 75mph (equal to Pacers), although they can technically manage about 1 km more per hour.

 

[djjawuk]

Rush hour TPE trains between Huddersfield and Leeds are very rarely on time since the fifth express per hour was introduced.

I've never known the 0746, 0755 or 0812 ex-Huddersfield to arrive in Leeds on time. It seems to be a combination of tight timings and congestion. And of course, the delays are never acknowledged by TPE.

So it'll be interesting to see what happens when a sixth express is introduced.

 

[xtradj]

The 17:15 Liverpool Central to Chester is never on time. Ever.

 

[455driver]

Don't tell that to 455 driver, he'll blame the passengers.

Please show me where I have blamed the passengers (apart from the one door wonders)!

 

[northwichcat]

Rush hour TPE trains between Huddersfield and Leeds are very rarely on time since the fifth express per hour was introduced.

I've never known the 0746, 0755 or 0812 ex-Huddersfield to arrive in Leeds on time. It seems to be a combination of tight timings and congestion. And of course, the delays are never acknowledged by TPE.

So it'll be interesting to see what happens when a sixth express is introduced.

Things might improve as the 6 services will actually be 4 proper expresses and 2 "semi-fast" with the all-stops services being withdrawn.
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The 17:15 Liverpool Central to Chester is never on time. Ever.

Well it's showing as being late every weekday during the past week but the delays haven't been severe (2-5 minutes.) Unlike most services it doesn't seem to have any real recovery time so a 2 minute delay can't be recovered.
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I find that to be a slur against pacers and ask you to issue an apology

Out of the Sprinters, only 158s and 159s have a top speed higher than that of Pacers. All other Sprinters have a top speed of around 75mph (equal to Pacers), although they can technically manage about 1 km more per hour.

Pacers are slower than 150s because they have poorer acceleration and less doors meaning dwell times are extended. People don't cancel their plans to travel because a 142 turns up instead of the booked 150.

150s can produce 213kw of power compared to the 168kw which a 142 can produce, so a 150 produces 27% more power than a 142.

 

[johntea]

Sheffield to Leeds via Castleford always seems to lose time although presumably due to a generous arrival time at Leeds probably doesn't have too much of an impact. Annoying too when it makes good progress along the route only to get held just outside Leeds for a good 5 minutes!

Skipton to Leeds used to be notorious for a couple of minutes delay at each station but seems to have massively improved recently!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

150s can produce 213kw of power compared to the 168kw which a 142 can produce, so a 150 produces 27% more power than a 142.

Yes, but a Pacer weighs about 50 tonnes compared to the 76 tonnes of the 150, so on a power to weight ratio the figures look somewhat different.

 

[Phil.]

Please show me where I have blamed the passengers (apart from the one door wonders)!

"If passengers sorted themselves out a bit more it would help....".

 

[backontrack]

Pacers are slower than 150s because they have poorer acceleration and less fewer doors meaning dwell times are extended. People don't cancel their plans to travel because a 142 turns up instead of the booked 150.

Fixed that for you

 

[6Gman]

Just to go back to the original post - and the xx40 Euston - Manchester.

These normally use Plat 5 at Crewe which also deals with the southbound Scotland- Birmingham (due out at xx01), so if that's late ... problem. It also involves crossing from the DF across the UF into the platform (which always seems to be done s l o w l y.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but a Pacer weighs about 50 tonnes compared to the 76 tonnes of the 150, so on a power to weight ratio the figures look somewhat different.

Train weights are given as:
142: 49.5t
143: 52.6t
150/1: 76.4t
150/2: 74.0t

I can't find the 144 figures, obviously the ones with centre cars have more weight.

However, as we're talking about busy services not ECS you need to allow for 12-13t of passengers on top of train weight.

 

[Senex]

It also involves crossing from the DF across the UF into the platform (which always seems to be done s l o w l y.

Thank the 1980s re-design of Crewe for that. It is a truly dreadful crawl, as is the normal route from the Manchester line into Crewe. The de-scoping of thirty years ago in action.

 

[andywandy]

is there anything stopping you from having valid connection times, but booking train tickets so that you are likely to miss a connection and will qualify for virgins generous delay repay? perhaps if you know the train is often 5 minutes late, causing you to miss a long connection and therefore qualify for a whole refund on a single ticket.

 

[QueensCurve]

Thank the 1980s re-design of Crewe for that. It is a truly dreadful crawl, as is the normal route from the Manchester line into Crewe. The de-scoping of thirty years ago in action.

To be fair, the old layout at Crewe restricted everything to 20mph. At least the "new" layout has some higher speed connections.

There are two really annoying things: the Down Slow to Down Fast Turnout at the North Junction (which must have wasted enormous amounts of traction current over the last 30y) and the P5 to Up Fast turnout at the fast end.

 

[mike57]

I am interested to read other comments on TPE service. I travel between Seamer and Birchwood regularly (typically once a week). I usually catch either the 12.50 or 13.50 from Birchwood home. Timetabled arrival time is 15.21 or 16.21. There is a 9 minute connection down the coast to Bempton, where I live at 16.30, however this TPE service always seems to be running a bit late, enough to make the connection at Seamer uncertain. Cue phone call to wife 'can you pick me up at Seamer'. On the otherhand the 15.21 is reliable, over 5 years of doing this journey I have had the odd late arrival, however the 16.21 is often late

Even more frustrating is leaving York 5 mins or so down on the 16.21 arrival at Seamer and have the driver driving in eco mode so no time is clawed back. Also due the single platform arrangement at Malton and the timetable the trains meet here a few minutes apart. If the coast bound service is more than a few mins late then it is held outside Malton waiting for the platform. If you miss the 16.30 and havnt got someone to pick you up the next Bridlington/Hull service isnt until 18.00.

To sum up if TPE can run the earlier service ontime, why not the later one. It not really rush hour on the Leeds Manchester section, its usually busy but not standing.

 

[driver_m]

Virgin Trains West Coast is reasonably punctual for a long distance train operator, but they suffer from a problem between London and Crewe (apparently, only between London and Crewe) of certain trains never arriving on time. These are the 17:07 (continuing to Liverpool), 18:07 (continuing to Liverpool), 18:40 (continuing to Manchester) and 19:40 (continuing to Manchester). During the previous three months, the 16:40 (continuing to Manchester) arrived on time in Crewe only once. Perhaps there was a small celebration. Unfortunately it still arrived late in Manchester. Other trains departing Euston are also highly unlikely to arrive in Crewe on time. For example, on the Friday just gone (29 Jan 2016) the 17:40 arrived on time (actually, one minute early!) for the first time in over two months and managed to arrive in Manchester on time and despite arriving on platform 1 (which necessitates taking the time to cross from the west to the east of the station). There should have been a band to greet it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time such a performance has ever been achieved. It would seem that it only achieved this punctuality because, very unusually, it was allowed in front of the (typically) late running London to Preston via Birmingham service - in fact, the '17:07', '18:07' and '19:07' arrivals from Euston via Birmingham have never arrived in Crewe on time within at least the previous three months.

Is there any reason why Crewe seems to be worst station for punctuality for trains leaving Euston (including those which run via Birmingham)? It is unfortunate that this occurs when Crewe happens to be a major interchange station. None of this gets reflected in VT's punctuality statistics, because when a Manchester train arrives up to 15 minutes late at Crewe, it tends to still arrive in Manchester within 10 minutes of the arrival time stated in the public timetable.

Does the blame for these delays lie with Network Rail? Are there other rail routes in England - which don't have a metro-style service - where a number of trains never arrive on time?

I'll try and answer those ones the best I can. The liverpools follow a lot of trains. The LM that runs fast, (is it a xx49 or 53?), the additional xx57 runs at those hours, then you have the regular xx00 xx03 services. Any poor running by the LM or xx57 will immediately cause a knock on effect. The xx07 is effectively at the back of that line and will no doubt suffer more than any of the other services a knock on delay. A 4m gap isn't massive for a train going 15mph faster to catch up. Hence there'll be reactionary delays. Add that to the lack of flashing yellows at rugby which causes the xx03 to slow down and that can further delay the xx07 services. The xx10 Chester/N Wales services don't get affected as bad due to a 221 given slightly more time to reach Crewe due to its slower time reaching 125mph.

The 1740 and 1840 follow the additional Liverpool services which stop at Rugby. With the same slowdown as previously mentioned, also gets checked regularly at Stafford by those services also stopping there.

 

[driver_m]

Quite simply those LM fast trains that leave Euston and stay Fast Line have to leave right time. Any delay at all and there will be delays.

 

[southern442]

Southern.

Need I say more?

I use them every weekday, and I now very rarely travel on a train that is on time. In case you haven't heard me ranting on other threads, here are some examples:

0718 East Croydon to Victoria. I think about a year ago it left bang on time, but most of the time it leaves at 07:20 or 07:21. Sometimes it is even later so I don't bother getting it as I would miss my connection. Speaking of which, the 07:00 Victoria - Epsom Downs:

Pre-December, It should've arrived at Selhurst 07:27, West Croydon 07:32, Waddon 07:36, Wallington 07:38, Carshalton Beeches 07:41, Sutton 07:44 and so on.

For some reason it couldn't manage that, so they decided to pad it out in December. It now runs (From Selhurst) 07:27, 07:34, (yes, it now has 7 minutes to get between those stations) 07:37, 07:40, (this means I now cannot get my early bus anyway even if it did run on time) 07:43, 07:47 and so on.

What it actually does is get to Selhurst on time, then quite literally crawl at around 10-15 mph all the way to West Croydon (which yesterday it took 13 minutes to do), then arrive at all the other stations 5-6 minutes late. Last week on all but one day it arrived late.

Also the 16:10 East Croydon-East Grinstead train usually doesn't get to East Croydon until 16:13, (this is due to trying to fit too many trains onto not enough platforms). It arrived late every day last week.

(ok turns out I did need to say more)

 

[The Planner]

Add that to the lack of flashing yellows at rugby which causes the xx03 to slow down and that can further delay the xx07 services. The xx10 Chester/N Wales services don't get affected as bad due to a 221 given slightly more time to reach Crewe due to its slower time reaching 125mph.

The 1740 and 1840 follow the additional Liverpool services which stop at Rugby. With the same slowdown as previously mentioned, also gets checked regularly at Stafford by those services also stopping there.

The arrangement at Rugby is a pain and we have tried all sorts to try and mitigate it but there isn't a lot that can be done. It is down on the list to be sorted signalling wise but the flashing route is to cross over at Hillmorton to go wrong road through the station for half blocks.

 

[Minilad]

is there anything stopping you from having valid connection times, but booking train tickets so that you are likely to miss a connection and will qualify for virgins generous delay repay? perhaps if you know the train is often 5 minutes late, causing you to miss a long connection and therefore qualify for a whole refund on a single ticket.

Nope. It's a cottage industry for some of the "loophole" boys on here

 

[driver_m]

The arrangement at Rugby is a pain and we have tried all sorts to try and mitigate it but there isn't a lot that can be done. It is down on the list to be sorted signalling wise but the flashing route is to cross over at Hillmorton to go wrong road through the station for half blocks.

I know, probably the daftest resignalling this side of the flashers for a 15 (!) junction at kidsgrove. Does anything actually make use of the hilmorton flashers seeing as the down Northampton to fasts just uses greens? Surely someone must have seen the stupidity in not prioritising flashers into the platforms instead?

 

[The Planner]

I don't think the complexities and the issues of the timetable were understood until after it was designed to be fair.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I don't think the complexities and the issues of the timetable were understood until after it was designed to be fair.

That is always the case unfortunately, as what works on paper might not be in reality.
Padding out the timetable is a necessity these days!

 

[The Planner]

Nothing is padded at Rugby (and I still dispute the notion of padding in the WTT) the minutes engineering allowance is in the wrong places but that is all and that only scratches the surface of the platform 1 problem.