Tram-train on the Wharfedale Line?

[YorksLad12]

Now bear with me, I know this is a bit of a stretch. It does make some sense, in that the use of tram-train at Leeds to relive platform pressure is already on the agenda. Leeds Council is already looking at pedestrianizing the City Square area, which would be the obvious place for any tram-train terminus (it being on the other side of the Queens Hotel from Leeds Station).

From Ilkley, use the existing formation as far as Guiseley. Rise up from there to meet the A65, and pretty much follow that route all the way in to Leeds. Add a stop at Yeadon, Rawdon and South Horsforth. There’s the potential to branch off to the Airport at Green Lane (so much better than the proposed heavy rail station north of Horsforth on the Harrogate Line). Or, if you assume all the airport traffic is coming from Leeds, do it at the junction with Harrogate Road/Micklefield Road in one direction.

Divert off the A65 at Kirkstall Forge. There was a plan to divert bus services through the site once it had developed further; I’m sure the developer would contribute something to make this happen. Another stop at Kirkstall Bridge, possibly Leeds Wellington (or Whitehall, or Central – for the Government Hub) and you’re done.

On the Bradford leg, continue south as far as Baildon, stay on the level and turn off on to Otley Road. Run in to Shipley, with a stop on Station Road. Back on to Otley Road, then straight down the A650 (Bradford Road, Keighley Road, Manningham Lane) via a new stop in Manningham, then Manor Row to Forster Square.

If a tram line is set up from Leeds to Bradford-near-the-Interchange (say, Drake Street) to remove stopping services and help speed up that routes as I suggested in a different thread, then the two ends could be connected at Bradford.

Advantages: frees two heavy rail paths at Leeds and Bradford. This would facilitate a third tph between Leeds and Skipton, or allow for two-hourly Leeds-Skipton-Settle/Lancaster services as the third Leeds-Skipton service. It also keeps the two overhead systems separate, solves the Airport issue and adds in additional stops that might help reduce congestion, especially on the A65.

Disadvantages: let’s be honest, if you just want to free up platforms at Leeds it’s a heck of a lot cheaper to just come off the main line on the level at Armley Road!!

 

[yorksrob]

Or just flatten the car park and build more platforms !

 

[Neptune]

Sounds like the plan is to slow services down on the Wharfedale Line, not exactly appealing to those current users.

Or just flatten the car park and build more platforms !

Why? Millions of pounds worth of spending on Platform 0 along with the major signalling and track remodelling is being done to solve the capacity issue at this end of the station whilst retaining the staff car park. Or are you one of these that sees no problem in people trailing through some of the not best parts of Leeds on their own in the small hours to/from work.

Incidentally how many platforms do you think it would release with all those impossible curves/junctions and to what additional benefit.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like the plan is to slow services down on the Wharfedale Line, not exactly appealing to those current users.

Why? Millions of pounds worth of spending on Platform 0 along with the major signalling and track remodelling is being done to solve the capacity issue at this end of the station whilst retaining the staff car park. Or are you one of these that sees no problem in people trailing through some of the not best parts of Leeds on their own in the small hours to/from work.

Incidentally how many platforms do you think it would release with all those impossible curves/junctions and to what additional benefit.

I'm not sure who you're disputing, me or the idea in the original post ?

 

[Neptune]

Both in reality. Tram trains are not ideal around West Yorkshire as it stands as any existing route would inevitably be slowed down by going onto the streets. Better to create a proper tram system and forget tram train in WY.

As for the idea of flattening the car park, it comes up every so often and the solution seems to be to make staff walk in from the surrounding areas which aren’t the best during the small hours but that’s fine as those suggesting it would never have to do it themselves.

Flattening the (already flat) car park would create an extra platform at best but not much more due to the seriously tight curves that would be involved and for what services? An additional west end bay has been provided along with capacity enhancing track and signal works and much more work is planned across the rest of the station to create extra capacity. Why do you want to inconvenience those people who provide the services by spending millions of pounds on something of negligible benefit? Like it or not, rail staff commute to Leeds at times of day when there is no alternative but to drive to work. Not everyone lives within a quick cycle to work.

 

[yorksrob]

Both in reality. Tram trains are not ideal around West Yorkshire as it stands as any existing route would inevitably be slowed down by going onto the streets. Better to create a proper tram system and forget tram train in WY.

As for the idea of flattening the car park, it comes up every so often and the solution seems to be to make staff walk in from the surrounding areas which aren’t the best during the small hours but that’s fine as those suggesting it would never have to do it themselves.

Flattening the (already flat) car park would create an extra platform at best but not much more due to the seriously tight curves that would be involved and for what services? An additional west end bay has been provided along with capacity enhancing track and signal works and much more work is planned across the rest of the station to create extra capacity. Why do you want to inconvenience those people who provide the services by spending millions of pounds on something of negligible benefit? Like it or not, rail staff commute to Leeds at times of day when there is no alternative but to drive to work. Not everyone lives within a quick cycle to work.

Oh, I get your point.

I was just saying that if you need new platforms, there are easier ways than getting a tram train.

When I lived in Leeds, I used to do a lot of walking on foot and bus travel, but I appreciate its not ideal from all places in the dark.

 

[YorksLad12]

On the staff car park: I did read elsewhere here that there was a plan to build a multi-storey on the car park between Whitehall Waterfront and Whitehall Riverside, with a footbridge connection to the station site.

On my suggestion: one of the advantages of the Wharfedale Line is that it's a dead end, with no freight or express services except on the line south of Shipley/Guiseley. The IRP did suggest looking at tram-train to relieve platform pressure at Leeds, and WYCA's mass transit proposals do suggest something similar, though not in great detail (just coloured lines on a map). The advantage of my suggestion is that it also releases heavy rail paths, whereas the much cheaper (and thus more likely) option only gains you platforms.

 

[Neptune]

On the staff car park: I did read elsewhere here that there was a plan to build a multi-storey on the car park between Whitehall Waterfront and Whitehall Riverside, with a footbridge connection to the station site.

That came up years ago and is no nearer now than it ever was.

On my suggestion: one of the advantages of the Wharfedale Line is that it's a dead end, with no freight or express services except on the line south of Shipley/Guiseley. The IRP did suggest looking at tram-train to relieve platform pressure at Leeds, and WYCA's mass transit proposals do suggest something similar, though not in great detail (just coloured lines on a map). The advantage of my suggestion is that it also releases heavy rail paths, whereas the much cheaper (and thus more likely) option only gains you platforms.

Tram Train is fine if it’s being done for the right reasons (Rotherham Parkgate for instance) but I just feel it’s now used to solve every non problem going without considering the impact on current users, especially in this case on a well used route which is planned to go up to 6 car operation in the Leeds direction in the future.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This would be a backwards step in my opinion, much like the Manchester proposal to convert the Glossop/Hadfield line. If a line is electrified at 25kvAC then conversion to trams or tram-trains would be a downgrade even with a frequency improvement.
Tram-train is flavour-of-the-month at the moment for doing "improvements" on the cheap. But it is not the right solution for Wharfedale, and the only reason it gets suggested is that it is self-contained with no freight.

 

[bluenoxid]

Quite a bit of on road running there to free up a few paths although with other upgrades, you would probably achieve more than two released paths

A65 is not exactly brilliant. The bus services down there already struggle there isn’t much space to play with particularly through Horsforth roundabout.

Armley Road won’t be that easy as the tram will have to fight across the canal and river to reach the end of Wellington Street. It’s possible that if the decision is taken to close/reduce capacity on the A58M, the space might be there.

 

[yorksrob]

This would be a backwards step in my opinion, much like the Manchester proposal to convert the Glossop/Hadfield line. If a line is electrified at 25kvAC then conversion to trams or tram-trains would be a downgrade even with a frequency improvement.
Tram-train is flavour-of-the-month at the moment for doing "improvements" on the cheap. But it is not the right solution for Wharfedale, and the only reason it gets suggested is that it is self-contained with no freight.

Very true, for Hadfield as well.

 

[Grimsby town]

In my opinion the IRP is clutching at straws by saying that trams can replace rail services into Leeds. I just don't see it being suitable for most lines unless Leeds went for a high floor tram system. If it does that though it makes on street tram lines more difficult / expensive to construct. The experience in Manchester seems to be that Metrolink is good at converted heavy rail lines but not so good at on street tram services. Going for a high floor solution seems to have prevented converting some of the busier bus routes such as the Oxford Road corridor which would benefit from the short dwell times of trams.

I think Leeds should go for a low floor tram model but that makes tram train more difficult to achieve and only really suitable for lines where the interaction with other services is relatively minimal. The Wharfdale line meets that criteria until Guiseley but after that its hard to see where a tram service would go. Its pretty far out of Leeds still so travelling via roads would be slow unless there could be large amounts of segregation which I doubt is possible. Using tram trains and continuing on the railway until closer to Leeds would mean interaction with Skipton / Bradford to Leeds services which would limit the frequency and therefore mean capacity would be reduced compared to the current train service. You've also got the issue that if the Leeds service becomes a low floor tram service, the Bradford to Ilkley also has to be a low floor tram service so you have to spend £100s millions to build a tram route into Bradford.

My feeling is that it any lines in West Yorkshire are suited to tram / tram train operation its the Hallam / Pontefract lines. However, you'd still have to solve the issue of the fast Barnsley services / freight trains sharing track with a frequent tram train service unless you can completely segregate the two.

 

[Grumpy]

From Ilkley, use the existing formation as far as Guiseley. Rise up from there to meet the A65, and pretty much follow that route all the way in to Leeds.

The existing train service works well. The A65 from Guiseley into Leeds is an absolute nightmare. Congested most of the day all the way from Guiseley to the Leeds ring road. The train journey is approx 15 minutes whilst it can take ten minutes just queueing at Horsforth roundabout.

 

[JKF]

Leeds has a single well-placed central station and a compact city centre, the need for street-running trams is less than other cities as you can walk to most central destinations in under 15 minutes.

A connection to the universities would be useful (the buses seem to take ages to cover this section, many lights and junctions) but ideally would be somehow segregated (by grade?) from other traffic.

 

[Neptune]

Leeds has a single well-placed central station and a compact city centre, the need for street-running trams is less than other cities as you can walk to most central destinations in under 15 minutes.

A connection to the universities would be useful (the buses seem to take ages to cover this section, many lights and junctions) but ideally would be somehow segregated (by grade?) from other traffic.

A light rail in Leeds would be far more than linking city centre sites together. Along the correct corridors it can provide a fantastic regional light rail network to benefit those areas that don’t have a railway line.

I just don’t think tram train is the answer, we need to move on from that way of thinking. It seems pointless designing a tramway around those places which already have a railway and for which street running would make things slower and more convoluted such as the Wharfedale line (can‘t see the original suggestion getting anywhere near the current 29 minute average journey time). This is especially so when Leeds station is so well sited in the centre of the city and now with better access to the south bank and its many new developments.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Its an interesting idea, apart from making existing journeys longer.

My biggest gripe with it is that it would interfere with the future possibility of reopening the line to Otley and potentially connecting Otley to Harrogate by means of a new line adjacent to the A658.

 

[JKF]

A light rail in Leeds would be far more than linking city centre sites together. Along the correct corridors it can provide a fantastic regional light rail network to benefit those areas that don’t have a railway line.

I just don’t think tram train is the answer, we need to move on from that way of thinking. It seems pointless designing a tramway around those places which already have a railway and for which street running would make things slower and more convoluted such as the Wharfedale line (can‘t see the original suggestion getting anywhere near the current 29 minute average journey time). This is especially so when Leeds station is so well sited in the centre of the city and now with better access to the south bank and its many new developments.

I think I’m largely in agreement with this, from my experience as an occasional user a few years back the Leeds NW lines offer a very good fast service. It’s fantastic if you live somewhere like Shipley or Saltaire, much faster than a car and dumps you in the heart of the city.

A tram system should be largely separate, and serve the north and north east of the city which has never been rail connected. I would however consider using the unused formation of the Leeds-Bramley line which was formerly four-tracked, perhaps trying to get into ‘old Pudsey’ which is poorly served by the ‘new‘ station.

 

[Neptune]

I think I’m largely in agreement with this, from my experience as an occasional user a few years back the Leeds NW lines offer a very good fast service. It’s fantastic if you live somewhere like Shipley or Saltaire, much faster than a car and dumps you in the heart of the city.

A tram system should be largely separate, and serve the north and north east of the city which has never been rail connected. I would however consider using the unused formation of the Leeds-Bramley line which was formerly four-tracked, perhaps trying to get into ‘old Pudsey’ which is poorly served by the ‘new‘ station.

Absolutely, that is where a light rail should be looking. Old, unused formations that have a benefit alongside street running. If the formation is right then it could head off towards Heckmondwike from Pudsey. Wetherby is another location that could be served.

Leeds NW is one of the busiest commuter lines outside London and to mess with any part of it with slower tram trains could be fatal.

 

[JKF]

Absolutely, that is where a light rail should be looking. Old, unused formations that have a benefit alongside street running. If the formation is right then it could head off towards Heckmondwike from Pudsey. Wetherby is another location that could be served.

Leeds NW is one of the busiest commuter lines outside London and to mess with any part of it with slower tram trains could be fatal.

I wouldn’t serve Wetherby on the old line from Cross Gates as that’s largely rural, unless significant housing development was on the cards (and I think they have been looking at expanding out that way). It would be better going out through Seacroft or Roundhay, stay within the built-up area as far as possible.

(none of which helps Bradford, so we’re drifting off-topic here!)

 

[Neptune]

I wouldn’t serve Wetherby on the old line from Cross Gates as that’s largely rural, unless significant housing development was on the cards (and I think they have been looking at expanding out that way). It would be better going out through Seacroft or Roundhay, stay within the built-up area as far as possible.

(none of which helps Bradford, so we’re drifting off-topic here!)

I wouldn’t even dream of bringing up the old route from Cross Gates. Too many people will be widening the viaducts east of Leeds for 14s6d

 

[MarkyT]

In my opinion the IRP is clutching at straws by saying that trams can replace rail services into Leeds. I just don't see it being suitable for most lines unless Leeds went for a high floor tram system. If it does that though it makes on street tram lines more difficult / expensive to construct. The experience in Manchester seems to be that Metrolink is good at converted heavy rail lines but not so good at on street tram services. Going for a high floor solution seems to have prevented converting some of the busier bus routes such as the Oxford Road corridor which would benefit from the short dwell times of trams.

I think Leeds should go for a low floor tram model but that makes tram train more difficult to achieve and only really suitable for lines where the interaction with other services is relatively minimal. The Wharfdale line meets that criteria until Guiseley but after that its hard to see where a tram service would go. Its pretty far out of Leeds still so travelling via roads would be slow unless there could be large amounts of segregation which I doubt is possible. Using tram trains and continuing on the railway until closer to Leeds would mean interaction with Skipton / Bradford to Leeds services which would limit the frequency and therefore mean capacity would be reduced compared to the current train service. You've also got the issue that if the Leeds service becomes a low floor tram service, the Bradford to Ilkley also has to be a low floor tram service so you have to spend £100s millions to build a tram route into Bradford.

My feeling is that it any lines in West Yorkshire are suited to tram / tram train operation its the Hallam / Pontefract lines. However, you'd still have to solve the issue of the fast Barnsley services / freight trains sharing track with a frequent tram train service unless you can completely segregate the two.

Manchester is essentially a German-style Stadtbahn, which although employing some street running among general traffic, is mostly on its own right of way, whether that is in dedicated lanes alongside streets and through pedestrian zones, or on old railway formations. Cardiff, with tram-trains, will take this a step further, allowing some interrunning with other heavy rail traffic while retaining street running capability, albeit with little or no use in the initial network. Aside from the possible higher 'price per seat', I think interior qualitywise a Stadler or CAF tram-train, with a high floor will be largely indistinguishable from a modern lightweight MU train. Just as with standard 'heavy' trains, different interiors can be specified to suit the application.

 

[YorksLad12]

So... I'm guessing there's not much support?