Transpennine Express cancellations from Liverpool

[Foxcover]

This morning (Sat 27 Feb) three of the early long-distance Transpennine Express services from Liverpool were cancelled - the 0612 and 0812 to Newcastle, and the 0922 to Scarborough. Later, the 1212 to Newcastle and the 1222 to Scarborough were also cancelled.

TPE are blaming driver shortages but the cancellation rate this morning seems excessive. Friends and family have grumbled lately about TPE trains starting and finishing journeys well short of their destination - and quite a few of the canxs above did actually start from eg Manchester.

There's a page on the TPE website from September 2015 talking about it being related to a rest day dispute that wouldn't be resolved before the end of the franchise - now that the franchise has been settled, does anyone know if this situation is anywhere nearer to resolution?

 

[LowLevel]

It is as it says unfortunately - it's ongoing until the new franchise regardless.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once the new franchise is in operation, will all these stated operational problems just suddenly disappear?

 

[najaB]

Once the new franchise is in operation, will all these stated operational problems just suddenly disappear?

A new franchise brings an opportunity for new contracts.

 

[PHILIPE]

There's already a thread here on this, but it has been locked:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=121411

 

[Foxcover]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

But for the ruck of TPE cancellations from Lime St this morning, what would the penalty to TPE be? Surely they aren't meeting their franchise obligations?

If they have an industrial relations issue surely they should be hiring additional drivers to provide the franchise service until the issue is resolved? Isn't that just a simple contractual point, part of the business risk of holding the franchise?

 

[PHILIPE]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

But for the ruck of TPE cancellations from Lime St this morning, what would the penalty to TPE be? Surely they aren't meeting their franchise obligations?

If they have an industrial relations issue surely they should be hiring additional drivers to provide the franchise service until the issue is resolved? Isn't that just a simple contractual point, part of the business risk of holding the franchise?

Have you read the quoted thread ? I know it is lengthy, but this a lot of material there explaining whys and wherefores

 

[mike57]

19.22 to York (19:50 ex Birchwood) was cancelled at short notice on Thursday 18th bearing in mind this arrives York at about 21:40 this could mean people would miss their last connection at York.

When TPE introduced 5th train per hour between Manchester and Leeds reliability on TPE North took a dive, and for various reasons has remained patchy since

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We would have made at least half-a-dozen trips to York in 2016 had this stated uncertainty not been the case, but why on earth should we bother to make such a journey whilst the "will it run" uncertainty prevails during the death throes of the current franchise.

For the same reason, we have made no visits to either Ludlow or to Hereford this year because of the supposed overtime embargo affecting ATW services.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It is unlikely to be resolved any time soon as ASLEF are currently balloting for strike action at TPE and ASLEF Company Council representatives are known to have said that as long as current directors and management with the same attitude remain at TPE then nothing will change. As the Managing Director Designate has confirmed the same directors will remain into the new franchise then it does not bode well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is unlikely to be resolved any time soon as ASLEF are currently balloting for strike action at TPE and ASLEF Company Council representatives are known to have said that as long as current directors and management with the same attitude remain at TPE then nothing will change. As the Managing Director Designate has confirmed the same directors will remain into the new franchise then it does not bode well.

So, from what you say, it is against the directors of the company, rather than the actual companies both pre and post franchise change (there are subtle differences in the ownership of the new franchisee, that the union are basing their intended continuance of this industrial debate. upon, if I read what you say above correctly.

Is this one way of circumventing the continuance of the union action without making reference to the actual TOC in terms of legal actuality? Has that type of action ever been carried out in any other instances?

Has there ever been any legal clarification of the actions that specifically target the directors of a company rather than of the company itself. I ask this by asking a question of with whom the employment contracts are said to be between, as I assumed it was with the actual company and not with its directors.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This has been a long running dispute over the number of rest days drivers get. drivers are working to rule, and not working any overtime so the gaps due to drivers retiring with the trainees to replace them still not yet passed out, sickness, off the job for incidents or fatalities, leave cover etc arent being filled. As the company TUPE's over to the new firm, the t&c's go with them and therefore so will the dispute. The old firm basically dont care as its no longer their problem, its down to the new firm, so as things stand they are quite happy to let it roll on....

 

[driver9000]

This has been a long running dispute over the number of rest days drivers get. drivers are working to rule, and not working any overtime so the gaps due to drivers retiring with the trainees to replace them still not yet passed out, sickness, off the job for incidents or fatalities, leave cover etc arent being filled. As the company TUPE's over to the new firm, the t&c's go with them and therefore so will the dispute. The old firm basically dont care as its no longer their problem, its down to the new firm, so as things stand they are quite happy to let it roll on....

The ballot is not about the number of rest days. That saw the end of the rest day working agreement, the ballot by ASLEF and RMT is over different matters relating to conditions of service. I don't intend to comment further but the rest days dispute doesn't feature.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The ballot is not about the number of rest days. That saw the end of the rest day working agreement, the ballot by ASLEF and RMT is over different matters relating to conditions of service. I don't intend to comment further but the rest days dispute doesn't feature.

Ah, ok, two different disputes, but both still with the same current result, no rest day working and my blackberry reguarly buzzing with e-mails from control detailing cancellations. Most shortages seem to be cleethorpes at the mo, but York has just had a couple of retirements and Manchester and Newcastle have drivers off due to fatalities so things are getting a bit tight!

Leo Goodwin is going to have a tough start to his tenure!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So, from what you say, it is against the directors of the company, rather than the actual companies both pre and post franchise change (there are subtle differences in the ownership of the new franchisee, that the union are basing their intended continuance of this industrial debate. upon, if I read what you say above correctly.

As I understand it, it isn't against the directors of the company directly, but the view is that lots of the most recent issues allegedly arise due to the supposed attitude of the directors and managers, and that if those same directors and managers transfer to the new franchise with the same attitudes and style of management, then in reality nothing has changed from the old to the new, so the issues will still exist on the 2nd April just the same as they do now.

 

[fabs]

Where as in this case the attitude of some senior ASLEF representatives has been beyond reproach obviously.
I have sympathy for both sides here regarding the dispute. I think the message that all Management want to do is bully the driving cadre is both untrue and unfair (for the most part).
I also sometimes wonder if the ASLEF reps actually listen to what their members actually think.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I imagine the new franchise will require significantly more train crew to operate the new trains and services.
So I would expect a big recruitment drive, which maybe wasn't possible under the old franchise.
Same at Northern too.
Curious how massive expansion and renewal of the railway doesn't seem to change the underlying industrial relations of the industry.

 

[Class 170101]

I'd be interested to see how many drivers transfer to Northern or stay where they are. in which case it may be Northern with the driver shortages and not TPE.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Transferring to Northern Rail on 1st April are:-

Blackpool Traincrew
Barrow Traincrew
Barrow Station
Windermere Station
Ulverston Station
Grange over Sands Station
Warrington Station
Birchwood Station

 

[Class 170101]

Transferring to Northern Rail on 1st April are:-

Blackpool Traincrew depot
Barrow Traincrew depot

But I guess they don't cover all services on these lines.

 

[Ianigsy]

I was travelling from Leeds to Northallerton yesterday afternoon for a family event, with other relatives coming across from Merseyside, so my parents were fortunate to have booked on the 1112 from Liverpool direct to Northallerton, particularly as my mother is 69 and has an arthritic back and knees so changing trains is an issue. I was booked on the 1349 from Leeds (1233 Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough) which was formed of two units, one of which was dropped at York- as neither unit seemed to have any reservations on it, I'm guessing that one of them was the unit which should have formed one of the trains from Liverpool. The screen at Leeds also advised changing at York for Scarborough, so the 1222 ex Liverpool may have started there- in the circumstances it may have made sense to have two units shuttling back and forth to serve Scarborough that way.

Approaching York the conductor announced that in spite of her best efforts, Control were not prepared to allow the 1408 ex York to be held for passengers from the Middlesbrough train- this should have been the 1212 from Liverpool, but as it was cancelled at Leeds I'm guessing this started at York. A minute or two she then announced that somebody had changed their mind and the 1408 would be held after all- the next train for somebody with a TPE advance would have been the 1508 which is booked an additional stop at Chester-Le-Street and would therefore give a 63-minute late arrival, so presumably somebody looked at all the possible compensation claims (and potential overcrowding on the following train).

Wonderful as the fast Liverpool service is from my point of view of travelling between Merseyside and West Yorkshire several times a year, the fact that it doesn't serve anywhere between Manchester and Liverpool (at the moment) means that TPE are absolved of any need to make alternative arrangements when the route is unavailable or the service goes up the wall- in fact, the fast service on Sundays has been removed from the current timetable completely (and rather sneakily, if you ask me!) and turns round at Piccadilly.

 

[Mark_1987]

The Newcastle services have to start from Piccadilly on a Sunday due to booked engineering works in relation to the Ordsall Chord, nothing sneaky about it

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Ideally we should stop at Newton Le Willows or earlestown tho. Ideal connection then for warrington and chester/North Wales services which is usually right behind.

 

[Class 170101]

The Newcastle services have to start from Piccadilly on a Sunday due to booked engineering works in relation to the Ordsall Chord, nothing sneaky about it

Why not run through Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington (non stop between Piccadilly and Liverpool)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not run through Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington (non stop between Piccadilly and Liverpool)?

Does that line still have two fasts plus the stoppers? If so there would be no room for it - the large number of local stations heavily limits the capacity of the line.

 

[PHILIPE]

Ideally we should stop at Newton Le Willows or earlestown tho. Ideal connection then for warrington and chester/North Wales services which is usually right behind.

Have TPE got access rights to call there. They won't get them now with the current Franchise running down.

 

[Class 170101]

Does that line still have two fasts plus the stoppers? If so there would be no room for it - the large number of local stations heavily limits the capacity of the line.

Only one stopper on Sundays.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Have TPE got access rights to call there. They won't get them now with the current Franchise running down.

Think it is planned in the future. NLW is used for additional stops when engineering works closes the warrington route, providing buses to link the two. It is also used for out of course or special stops if service disruption can benefit the people on board.

 

[Ianigsy]

TPE (or their predecessors) have used Newton-le-Willows before now with a bus connection to Warrington when the CLC route has been unavailable, but I suspect that it was found that Warringtonians preferred to catch the Welsh train from Bank Quay and change at Manchester.

Incidentally, on the Sunday of the May Bank Holiday weekend, the Liverpool-Newcastle service will be running, again on the CLC route and calling at Oxford Road, Warrington and Liverpool South Parkway as EMT aren't running west of Sheffield, but Widnes isn't being served.

My grumble about the loss of the fast Victoria service on Sundays (and it's just that) is based on the amount of difference it makes to my journey time home- once I get to Leeds I change to a half-hourly bus service which goes hourly after 5pm. When it runs, the 1412 gets me in to Leeds for 1540, on a bus at 1610 and home around 1645. The 1422 gets me in at 1612, 1640 bus and home half an hour later; it's also nearly always a rather more crowded and unpleasant journey, particularly as it now also has the Dewsbury stop added in.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Why not run through Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington (non stop between Piccadilly and Liverpool)?

The issue could be capacity through Piccadilly. You already have the LIV-SCA and the EMT services crossing the station throat, the strain of a third diverted service may have too much an effect on paths out of the terminal. At least by running into P1-2 wont get in the way of other services.