Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Bigman]

I kinda of like this Piecemeal approach, once Ravensthorpe to Huddersfield has been completed and then the remainder wired from Leeds, at least 333s could be used on the stopper between Leeds & Huddersfield.

I somehow doubt the 333's will still be around by the time this gets done. 331's will probably be past it by then too

 

[adamedwards]

So if slowly slowly is the plan, will Vic to Stalybridge follow on logically after Church Fenton or Market Harborough? They could use them as training for HS2 teams as that's a big wiring contract coming soon.

 

[59CosG95]

So if slowly slowly is the plan, will Vic to Stalybridge follow on logically after Church Fenton or Market Harborough? They could use them as training for HS2 teams as that's a big wiring contract coming soon.

That largely depends on who wins the contracts! SPL have KO1a of the MML (Kettering - Mkt Hboro + OLE upgrades south of Bedford) and East Kilbride/Barrhead, while VolkerRail has the Church Fenton job IIRC.
I think I remember seeing Keltbray compounds for the 'Great Extension Lead', perhaps they may be back.

Of course, contractors (and subcontractors!) come and go - Manchester to Euxton had Balfour Beatty, Carillion and Amey before completion.

 

[Bald Rick]

So if slowly slowly is the plan, will Vic to Stalybridge follow on logically after Church Fenton or Market Harborough? They could use them as training for HS2 teams as that's a big wiring contract coming soon.

HS2 wiring is a way off yet, at least 4-5 years. There’s plenty of renewal work for the Wiring teams coming up around the country.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There were something like 5 electrification contractors at the peak of the CP5 work, with others in support.
There are also nominally regional framework contracts let by NR to some of these contractors.
It isn't going to be one team going from project to project (and there will be disappointed contractors who lose out on the bids).

 

[edwin_m]

HS2 wiring is a way off yet, at least 4-5 years. There’s plenty of renewal work for the Wiring teams coming up around the country.

If I recall there are regional frameworks for smaller electrification jobs, giving those contractors some confidence to build up teams especially if there is a renewals pipeline to supplement the very unpredictable spend on extensions of wiring. Individual workers will also move to other contractors if that's where the work is. Contractors will also move skilled workforce temporarily between countries to cope with peaks and troughs in workload, though that's one of the many things Brexit makes more difficult.

 

[Starmill]

Aren't there relatively large electrification jobs in the Central Belt and South Wales still to come also, certainly in shorter timescale than HS2. Of course, I don't know if any of these have already awarded contracts or not. Isn't T&W Metro going ahead with a relatively big renewals package too? There's also light rail work in Edinburgh.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a couple of questions on renewals vs new installations:

1. Are the skills and the people involved fairly similar, so for example if a 'team' was renewing wires and structures on MML south of Bedford then we could still have 'x' electrification teams nationally and this is one of them which is clearly not adding to electrification mileage
2. Is renewal easier / harder so faster/slower or roughly similar to new installations (I understand that 'new installations' is not a homogeneous level of difficulty)

It seems to me the objective for electrification schemes right now is to build experience and knowledge steadily, share best practice and above all deliver to time and budget to avoid having to divert budget from elsewhere and this demonstrate capability of the whole system and process. Starting with simpler schemes seems more than reasonable and on that topic is there any reason why Victoria to Stalybridge may not be a simpler scheme?

1) broadly similar. A ‘linesman’ as the role is known is equally at home putting new wires up as taking down old and replacing with new.

2) renewal is easier in some ways, harder in others. Easier, because for typical renewals, which are campaign replacement of components, you don’t need to worry about structures. For the bigger jobs there will be elements of this (see GEML). However it’s harder in that you have stuff to remove first, have to design interfaces between old and new kit for each stage as you go along, and, most importantly, have to arrange isolations etc to do anything.

An aside: there is benefit in keeping some of the guys who put the stuff up on as maintenance. This happened in Scotland.

 

[CdBrux]

1) broadly similar. A ‘linesman’ as the role is known is equally at home putting new wires up as taking down old and replacing with new.

2) renewal is easier in some ways, harder in others. Easier, because for typical renewals, which are campaign replacement of components, you don’t need to worry about structures. For the bigger jobs there will be elements of this (see GEML). However it’s harder in that you have stuff to remove first, have to design interfaces between old and new kit for each stage as you go along, and, most importantly, have to arrange isolations etc to do anything.

An aside: there is benefit in keeping some of the guys who put the stuff up on as maintenance. This happened in Scotland.

thanks. As always very informative for this layman

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It isn't going to be one team going from project to project (and there will be disappointed contractors who lose out on the bids).

Thank goodness for that. If we are truly serious about decarbonisation there needs to be more than 1 team. Scotland on its own is a minimum of one team. I did a thread many years ago about how many teams I thought there should be.

 

[snowball]

Just guessing but wouldn't it be the case that a lot of the relevant workers would go and work for the contractors who got the contracts, rather than being on the permanent staff of one contractor, and so it ends up being a lot of the same people doing the job anyway?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just guessing but wouldn't it be the case that a lot of the relevant workers would go and work for the contractors who got the contracts, rather than being on the permanent staff of one contractor, and so it ends up being a lot of the same people doing the job anyway?

Yes. There’s a couple of hundred of them (individuals).

 

[59CosG95]

A new doc has appeared on the York - Church Fenton NR website. https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/QA-on-Electrification.pdf
At the bottom, details are given as to the programme of works for 2021; work to install steelwork adjacent to the Normanton Lines will continue through Spring, while work to install structures adjacent to the Leeds lines will commence in Autumn and run into winter 2021/2022.
Christmas 2021 will also see adjustments to existing OLE between Colton & York.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but I thought I read that the extent of electrification was only as far as Church Fenton station, so the reference to the Leeds and Normanton lines puzzles me slightly. Or are these just very short over-runs?

 

[Starmill]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but I thought I read that the extent of electrification was only as far as Church Fenton station, so the reference to the Leeds and Normanton lines puzzles me slightly. Or are these just very short over-runs?

They're just references to the line names in question, which are between Church Fenton station and Colton Jn. Someone might have a map.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks, makes sense. Reading the leaflet, I wonder will that naming terminology be clear to those living near to the railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, makes sense. Reading the leaflet, I wonder will that naming terminology be clear to those living near to the railway.

They probably should think about their audience, the east or west side of the tracks would be more meaningful...

 

[D6130]

They're just references to the line names in question, which are between Church Fenton station and Colton Jn. Someone might have a map.

The Leeds lines are the Western pair of lines between Colton Junction and Church Fenton and the Normanton Lines are the Eastern pair.

 

[zwk500]

Apologies if this has been answered before, but I thought I read that the extent of electrification was only as far as Church Fenton station, so the reference to the Leeds and Normanton lines puzzles me slightly. Or are these just very short over-runs?

They're just references to the line names in question, which are between Church Fenton station and Colton Jn. Someone might have a map.

The Leeds lines are the Western pair of lines between Colton Junction and Church Fenton and the Normanton Lines are the Eastern pair.

Point of order, but the Leeds Lines (LSL) and Normanton Lines (NNL) run between York Station and Church Fenton, not just from Colton Junction.

 

[D6130]

Point of order, but the Leeds Lines (LSL) and Normanton Lines (NNL) run between York Station and Church Fenton, not just from Colton Junction.

Point of order upheld.....but in this context we are specifically discussing the section of route between Colton Junction and Church Fenton, so we're both correct!

 

[Starmill]

They probably should think about their audience, the east or west side of the tracks would be more meaningful...

The eastern two tracks and the western two tracks would have been much clearer yes.

 

[YorksLad12]

Thanks, makes sense. Reading the leaflet, I wonder will that naming terminology be clear to those living near to the railway.

They probably should think about their audience, the east or west side of the tracks would be more meaningful...

Translating stuff for the lay-person - welcome to my world (except they didn't offer me that job after interview... )

East/West, or divide it up by platforms but don't go overboard on the technical terms or assume that everyone knows what you're talking about. I didn't, initially. Can you even catch a train from Church Fenton to Normanton?

 

[D6130]

Translating stuff for the lay-person - welcome to my world (except they didn't offer me that job after interview... )

East/West, or divide it up by platforms but don't go overboard on the technical terms or assume that everyone knows what you're talking about. I didn't, initially. Can you even catch a train from Church Fenton to Normanton?

Not any more.....but the nomenclature goes way back to the 1840's when Normanton - now a run-down unstaffed halt with a single island platform - was a major junction and pivotal point on George Hudson's York & North Midland Railway. In the days before corridor coaches and restaurant cars, all the long distance expresses stopped there for 20-30 minutes for a mad scramble into the refreshment rooms for a slap-up lunch or dinner....a bit like Swindon on the Great Western.

 

[CAF397]

Point of order, but the Leeds Lines (LSL) and Normanton Lines (NNL) run between York Station and Church Fenton, not just from Colton Junction.

From York to Colton Jn the lines are Up Main/Down Main/Up Leeds/Down Leeds.

It isn't until Colton Junction that the Normanton Lines commence, diverging from the 125mph points of the Mains.

 

[Halish Railway]

Christmas 2021 will also see adjustments to existing OLE between Colton & York.

Would I be right in assuming that this is to facilitate the higher linespeeds on the Leeds lines (100mph to 125mph)?

 

[YorksLad12]

Not any more.....but the nomenclature goes way back to the 1840's when Normanton - now a run-down unstaffed halt with a single island platform - was a major junction and pivotal point on George Hudson's York & North Midland Railway. In the days before corridor coaches and restaurant cars, all the long distance expresses stopped there for 20-30 minutes for a mad scramble into the refreshment rooms for a slap-up lunch or dinner....a bit like Swindon on the Great Western.

Which is kind-of my point. We know this sort of stuff, some people might even spot that the "Normanton" lines service now runs through Pontefract but in general it's playing to the wrong audience. I don't get demonstrative about much, but my adult career has been all about giving people clear information. Aux armes, citoyens!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Can you even catch a train from Church Fenton to Normanton?


I think you can, there were a couple of York-sheffield direct trains operated by Northern that avoided Leeds altogether. they definitely ran via sherburn in Elmet and Castleford but after that I'm not sure if they went to Knottingley or Wakefield, or if they have ran in these covid times.

 

[D6130]

Can you even catch a train from Church Fenton to Normanton?


I think you can, there were a couple of York-sheffield direct trains operated by Northern that avoided Leeds altogether. they definitely ran via sherburn in Elmet and Castleford but after that I'm not sure if they went to Knottingley or Wakefield, or if they have ran in these covid times.

No....they are routed via Pontefract Baghill and Moorthorpe on the Swinton & Knottingley Joint Line; not via Castleford and Normanton.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Ah, ok. Not the way I thought then

 

[Watershed]

Can you even catch a train from Church Fenton to Normanton?


I think you can, there were a couple of York-sheffield direct trains operated by Northern that avoided Leeds altogether. they definitely ran via sherburn in Elmet and Castleford but after that I'm not sure if they went to Knottingley or Wakefield, or if they have ran in these covid times.

No, though in theory a direct service would be possible.