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Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

matacaster

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The work to extend / rebuild huddersfield Station area and 4 track to ravensthorpe will require some long possessions during which time the line over standedge will be closed. Would it not make sense to widen standedge tunnel to W12 in parallel to speed things up and reduce the need for extended possessions?
 
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SuperNova

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The work to extend / rebuild huddersfield Station area and 4 track to ravensthorpe will require some long possessions during which time the line over standedge will be closed. Would it not make sense to widen standedge tunnel to W12 in parallel to speed things up and reduce the need for extended possessions?
Workforce numbers then the issue. No doubt some work will be done in that time.
 

modernrail

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Am I right in thinking the latest proposal for TRU is for an electrified route to be available from either Piccadilly or Victoria to Stalybridge, or is the plan for Victoria to Stalybridge only with a gap remaining between Stalybridge and Guide Bridge?

Bearing in mind the total lack of detail on the currently mythical new route from Manchester to Marsden, I have a feeling it won’t be long before the bullsh*tters tell us they meant the existing route when they said new.

Also, if the Fiddlers Ferry upgrade goes ahead, where will that line feed into the system in Manchester? Will Transpennine trains need to reverse in Manchester in the same way transpennine trains used to have to in York before that problem was sorted out, about 150 years ago.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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We built the entire national grid, 4000 miles of it, 26,000 pylons under time and budget, in 5 years in the 1930’s. That whole project was delivered within the public sector because the private sector wasn’t getting anywhere with it and we were being overtaken by other countries. The whole thing was delivered and commissioned by a Conservative Government.
that was only the 132kV system which is now largely owned by distribution operators. The 275/400kV NG was built in the 1950/60's by the CEGB. Both used contractors but managed directly by the public sector corporations as did BR pretty successfully until privatisation.
I am a lawyer who has worked in finance and in infrastructure projects. The problem is not the people per se, I don’t know why we all love having a pop at each other so much between jobs in the UK! Many of us work very hard in whatever jobs we do. It is how resource is used and whether the ratios are right. Lawyers, finance people etc are enablers to ensure the engineers proposals can be implemented. I would agree I see the ratios being wrong too often.

The Conservative Government has become absolute experts it making it look like they are doing something and generating headlines by commissioning this study or that study, or even worse, serious amounts of project development before cancelling things. It is appalling how much money they have thrown down the drain because some idiot or other made an ill-considered promise of a very grand scale to bag some votes. Yes we always expect a bit of this from our politicians but it seems to have become all about this now. Not how do you govern, how do you wind people up in the short term to fool them into voting for you before you revert to type.

The Conservative Government has also long been an expert in outsourcing, where these skills sit too remote to cost centres and the engineering priorities. Often this is outsourcing of the engineering roles not legal, finance etc. Let’s be really clear, the Conservatives are at their worst point ever in not believing that the public sector can or should be asked to do anything. They don’t believe in local government, they don’t believe in public bodies, they have an amazingly high opinion of themselves despite most of them never having worked in the real world.

Outsourced consultants, whilst individually very good sometimes, don’t have skin in the game in the same way that an internal team does. Their bosses are also most loyal to the bottom line of the consultancy and not, in this case, the railway. It is also hard for external consultants to stay efficient if they are not led by a really strong client team. To a made point above there is a big difference between development consultancy and delivery contracting. As the poster intimated, all public sector bodies enter into a range of contracts with the private sector to deliver things. The NHS has never built hospitals, contractors do that.

The Conservative Government needs to stop micro-managing stuff it doesn’t understand, even have the first clue about in many cases, the DfT needs to withdraw to its proper position and Network Rail needs to be left without stupid constant political distraction and instead held to account on basic engineering performance.

The transpennine lines are some of the oldest in the country/world, connecting the biggest population centres in the UK outside London. One bit is literally the oldest in the world. All Governments have failed to sort them out, but as the Conservatives have been in power for the vast majority of the last 4 decades, it is to them the award for Chinese water torture goes to. Just get on with it and show just a tiny bit of ambition, just a tiny bit.

It is seriously pathetic stuff from a seriously pathetic Government.
Very nicely sums up the current situation the only fault I can find is its been this way for at least 25 years and no one has sorted it!
 

snowball

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Am I right in thinking the latest proposal for TRU is for an electrified route to be available from either Piccadilly or Victoria to Stalybridge, or is the plan for Victoria to Stalybridge only with a gap remaining between Stalybridge and Guide Bridge?

Bearing in mind the total lack of detail on the currently mythical new route from Manchester to Marsden, I have a feeling it won’t be long before the bullsh*tters tell us they meant the existing route when they said new.

Also, if the Fiddlers Ferry upgrade goes ahead, where will that line feed into the system in Manchester? Will Transpennine trains need to reverse in Manchester in the same way transpennine trains used to have to in York before that problem was sorted out, about 150 years ago.
Guide Bridge to Stalybridge is being wired now (or at least there are a few new masts up).

If the Fiddlers Ferry upgrade goes ahead, it will connect via a new line from Warrington Bank Quay low level to join the Manchester arm of HS2 near Rostherne, then via the HS2 tunnel under south Manchester to Piccadilly High Speed, where reversal will be required, then via a new line (perhaps largely in tunnel) to join the existing Stalybridge-Huddersfield line east of Standedge tunnel.
 

modernrail

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Guide Bridge to Stalybridge is being wired now (or at least there are a few new masts up).

If the Fiddlers Ferry upgrade goes ahead, it will connect via a new line from Warrington Bank Quay low level to join the Manchester arm of HS2 near Rostherne, then via the HS2 tunnel under south Manchester to Piccadilly High Speed, where reversal will be required, then via a new line (perhaps largely in tunnel) to join the existing Stalybridge-Huddersfield line east of Standedge tunnel.
Thanks snowball.

At least they are not leaving a silly gap then.

As for the new line from the HS2 station to Marsden, I won’t hold my breath. Absolutely no way they will upgrade Standedge and then build a new tunnel as well. Who on here actually thinks that is a good idea anyway?

I really cannot see it being efficient to re-engineer some very fine but old tunnels only for them to become obsolete a few years later. Why not just get the new tunnels in now/soon?

Until I see a planned alignment of the run from Piccadilly to Marsden I will remain deeply suspicious that anybody has given the practicalities any serious thought before announcing it as an actual thing. Smells like bull**** to me.
 

matacaster

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Thanks snowball.

At least they are not leaving a silly gap then.

As for the new line from the HS2 station to Marsden, I won’t hold my breath. Absolutely no way they will upgrade Standedge and then build a new tunnel as well. Who on here actually thinks that is a good idea anyway?

I really cannot see it being efficient to re-engineer some very fine but old tunnels only for them to become obsolete a few years later. Why not just get the new tunnels in now/soon?

Until I see a planned alignment of the run from Piccadilly to Marsden I will remain deeply suspicious that anybody has given the practicalities any serious thought before announcing it as an actual thing. Smells like bull**** to me.
I agree there is little chance of the new tunnel ever being built. Think we'll be told W12 in existing (1 or hopefully 3) tunnels is best we'll get. Even HS2 North of birmingham may not survive (although 2a might? ) - see Sunday telegraph front page.
 

twin turbo

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Heard last week that the bridge at Church Fenton does have to be raised. Contractors have set another compound up next to the station to start doing interim strengthening work which is necessary and expected to take 9 weeks to complete. This according to surveyors is only temporary prior to the bridge being replaced in the near future (within 2 years I understand) Has anyone else heard anything in respect of this.
 

Manutd1999

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With all the different announcements, it's very difficult to understand a) what is planned to be delivered and b) when.

Being cyncial, that is probably exactly as intended by the DfT / Network Rail, trying to avoid making clear promises which can come back to cause embarassment later.

Maybe we should start our own summary for each section of the route? Something like this:

Victoria to Stalybridge
What: Electrification and improvements at Miles Platting.
Status: Already started, to be completed over the next 1-2 years in parallel with the Bolton-Wigan electrification.
Completion: 2024

Stalybridge to Huddersfield
What: Electrification. Big overlap with the proposed HS2/IRP work.
Status: Still at the design stage.
Completion: Late 2020s or early 2030s, if ever

Huddersfield to Dewsbury:
What: Electrification, 4-tracking, various station improvements and re-locations.
Status: Approved, awaiting start
Completion: 2027?

Dewsbury to Leeds:
What: Electrification + possible improvements at Morley (also a new station at White Rose, but this is outside of TRU scope)
Status: Unknown, possibly to be incorporated into the Hudds-Dewsbury work?
Completion: ??

Leeds to Cross Gates
What: Electrification + layout improvements around Neville Hill.
Status: Design approved? No start date
Completion: ??

Cross Gates to Church Fenton
What: Electrification + possible capacity improvements (e.g. new loops around Garforth)
Status: Still at the design stage.
Completion: ??

Church Fenton to York
What: Electrification
Status: Already started, largely complete
Completion: Spring 2024
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Hudds-Dewsbury won't be completed by 2025.
It's a big job, and will probably be done in phases, but I expect it will take 5 years or more.
Rebuilding Huddersfield station might not impede traffic too much, but the 4-tracking and bridge replacements certainly will.
There will be extended periods of Calder Valley diversions (which itself needs capacity upgrades for its diversionary role).
Plus all the land purchase and regulatory niceties needed to acquire the new alignment before work can start on it.
 

InOban

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Heard last week that the bridge at Church Fenton does have to be raised. Contractors have set another compound up next to the station to start doing interim strengthening work which is necessary and expected to take 9 weeks to complete. This according to surveyors is only temporary prior to the bridge being replaced in the near future (within 2 years I understand) Has anyone else heard anything in respect of this.
That reads as if the bridge needs to be replaced for structural reasons unconnected with electrification, in which case it should be funded outwith the TRU budget.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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With all the different announcements, it's very difficult to understand a) what is planned to be delivered and b) when.

Being cyncial, that is probably exactly as intended by the DfT / Network Rail, trying to avoid making clear promises which can come back to cause embarassment later.
For sure since Crossrail debacle politicians never mention any dates for Entry Into service and NR must be expressly forbidden to publish any timeline. Although what use will the wiring be until the whole route is complete anyhow.

TPE get a short burst on the wires from York although wouldn't be surprised if they don't even exploit that. Then they pick up the wires again at Stalybridge and presumably the Southport service will use them if there are any 769's left working.

For the rest of the services looks like minimum of five years before anything else can take advantage and best part of a decade before the whole route is electrified but unless TPE get more electric stock they won't be able to take advantage anyhow. In any common sense world Hitachi would be given an order for another 20 802's so more of the TPE services could be turned over.
 

snowball

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possibly re-opening the third track through Standedge.
This has not been mentioned officially in recent years and seems unlikely in view of the current IRP proposal for a bypass.
Dewsbury to Leeds:
I think it's known that something is proposed at Morley station, but not what. Track realignment? Moving the station a bit further along the line away from the town??
Church Fenton to York
What: Electrification
Status: Already started, largely complete
Completion: 2023
Not live before spring 2024 according to the second paragraph of #5646.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I think it's known that something is proposed at Morley station, but not what. Track realignment? Moving the station a bit further along the line away from the town??
How far is it from Morley station to the proposed White Rose station? Morley station appears to be just as you go into or out from the long tunnel that goes under the town.
 

matacaster

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Are the overbridge then tunnel (springwood?) immediately to West of Huddersfield Station going to be made OK for W12 by lowering track and if so, will this mean platform heights affected?

If not above, will they replace them? Don't see anything suggesting replacement in fairness, but if they go for 3 tracks to standedge, then will they be a bottleneck?
 

sjm77

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The page on MML electrification indicates that the "country areas" (eg Syston-Sheet Stores) will be done before the more complex urban centres (Leicester, Derby etc), hinting at discontinuous electrification for a period.
This would be disappointing because it would me trains using diesel at maximum power within a city environment to reach crusing speed, then switching to electricity when out in the countryside when power demand is reduced!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Getting the operators to use the wires is not straightforward.
TPE could be using 5 miles of ECML wires from York to Colton Jn today but they don't, preferring to switch while stationary in York.
 

LOL The Irony

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Getting the operators to use the wires is not straightforward.
TPE could be using 5 miles of ECML wires from York to Colton Jn today but they don't, preferring to switch while stationary in York.
To be fair, it is a lot less risky doing the changeover whilst stationary, as you can't exactly bring the wires down if you're not moving and you can spot and mitigate any issues much more easily than when you're moving.
 

Starmill

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To be fair, it is a lot less risky doing the changeover whilst stationary, as you can't exactly bring the wires down if you're not moving and you can spot and mitigate any issues much more easily than when you're moving.
This risk is managed by Automatic Power Changovers. As demonstrated by LNER.
 

61653 HTAFC

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How far is it from Morley station to the proposed White Rose station? Morley station appears to be just as you go into or out from the long tunnel that goes under the town.
Don't know the exact distances, but Morley isn't all that far from Cottingley. Cottingley is likely to be replaced by White Rose which will be closer to Morley.
I don't know if the realignment at Morley has been finalised, but I can't imagine the station will move towards Leeds by all that much- it's far enough from Morley town centre as it is, both horizontally and vertically!

Both Morley (town) and the White Rose Centre would be better served by a Leeds tram system, but that's another story entirely.
 

YorksLad12

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I think it's known that something is proposed at Morley station, but not what. Track realignment? Moving the station a bit further along the line away from the town??

How far is it from Morley station to the proposed White Rose station? Morley station appears to be just as you go into or out from the long tunnel that goes under the town.

Don't know the exact distances, but Morley isn't all that far from Cottingley. Cottingley is likely to be replaced by White Rose which will be closer to Morley.
I don't know if the realignment at Morley has been finalised, but I can't imagine the station will move towards Leeds by all that much- it's far enough from Morley town centre as it is, both horizontally and vertically!

From memory: Morley would basically move east by about the length of the current platforms. As it stands, the platforms are practically up against the mouth of the tunnel. But there was also a suggestion of realigning the track for higher speeds by removing the curve (the one between the big curve and the tunnel entrance). Think a new car park was mentioned as well. White Rose is closer to Morley than Cottingley by about 850m, which is nothing really, so the gap from 'Morley' and the next station along would reduce by a little over 1km.

Both Morley (town) and the White Rose Centre would be better served by a Leeds tram system, but that's another story entirely.
The revised Mass Transit Vision at www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/mass-transit partly agrees with you...
 

modernrail

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Getting the operators to use the wires is not straightforward.
TPE could be using 5 miles of ECML wires from York to Colton Jn today but they don't, preferring to switch while stationary in York.
Is it not more straight forward where they run from A to B rather than A to a bit further than A?

Where does LNER do this for the sake of such a short run though?
 

Mag_seven

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A reminder that this thread is for discussion of Trans Pennine Route Upgrade and Electrification Updates i.e. discussion of the progress of the scheme as is not as we would like it to be.

I've split of a number of speculative posts about ideas surrounding this scheme to a new thread in the speculative area of the forum which can be found here:



thanks
 

Manutd1999

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possibly re-opening the third track through Standedge.
This has not been mentioned officially in recent years and seems unlikely in view of the current IRP proposal for a bypass.
Dewsbury to Leeds:
I think it's known that something is proposed at Morley station, but not what. Track realignment? Moving the station a bit further along the line away from the town??
Church Fenton to York
What: Electrification
Status: Already started, largely complete
Completion: 2023
Not live before spring 2024 according to the second paragraph of #5646.

I have updated post #5682 to reflect these updates :smile:
 

AndyHudds

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Assuming the bridges in question are rail over road bridges, there's only a few possibilities between Huddersfield and Deighton: the bridge over John William Street right at the station throat; any of the spans of the viaduct immediately beyond the aforementioned bridge; the bridge near the Household Waste centre which is more akin to a road tunnel through an embankment; and the bridges at Red Doles Lane.

John William Street and the viaduct look like much bigger jobs than the relatively short blockades would allow. The one near the incinerator is probably the same due to the embankment above- and probably doesn't need any modifications anyway. Unless I've missed a bridge (there's every chance I have) that just leaves Red Doles. I've a vague memory that the bridges currently in use were only rebuilt quite recently (in the last 20 years or so), so could this be the installation of new decks to carry additional tracks? Or as the location is close to the Hillhouse temporary station site, it could be in preparation for that.
I think one of these bridges is the one that carries the public footpath over the line that comes down from Chestnut Street on to Old Fieldhouse Lane by the bus depot on the canal. I travel to work on the train everyday to Leeds and its been subject to a lot of activity of late, vegetation clearance with diggers, some scaffolding erected and in the last week removal of the masonry walls at each side of the deck at deck level.

The replacement of the bridge at Red Doles Lane could irk a lot of Town fans should we be at home on a weekend. Lots of fans park up there and walk down the public footpath as well as do a lot of Town fans that live round the Fartown, Sheepridge, Ferndale, Fixby areas.
 

gledhill56

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Assuming the bridges in question are rail over road bridges, there's only a few possibilities between Huddersfield and Deighton: the bridge over John William Street right at the station throat; any of the spans of the viaduct immediately beyond the aforementioned bridge; the bridge near the Household Waste centre which is more akin to a road tunnel through an embankment; and the bridges at Red Doles Lane.

John William Street and the viaduct look like much bigger jobs than the relatively short blockades would allow. The one near the incinerator is probably the same due to the embankment above- and probably doesn't need any modifications anyway. Unless I've missed a bridge (there's every chance I have) that just leaves Red Doles. I've a vague memory that the bridges currently in use were only rebuilt quite recently (in the last 20 years or so), so could this be the installation of new decks to carry additional tracks? Or as the location is close to the Hillhouse temporary station site, it could be in preparation for that.
Signs have appeared on the A62 at Cooper Bridge stating Colne Bridge Road is to be closed for 5 days just before the first of the 2 weekend blockades. A quick look on the roadworks map shows that the works are being carried out by Network Rail.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Signs have appeared on the A62 at Cooper Bridge stating Colne Bridge Road is to be closed for 5 days just before the first of the 2 weekend blockades. A quick look on the roadworks map shows that the works are being carried out by Network Rail.
I think that's separate works, the bridge that was being discussed was between Huddersfield and Deighton.

There's heavy works planned for the next couple of years along the A62 between Cooper Bridge and Huddersfield, in addition to any railway-related works. Hopefully the agencies involved will co-operate as much as possible to avoid any more disruption than is necessary. In particular the football traffic will be an issue at times as suggested by @AndyHudds . As I travel into the games from Batley (which despite being in the Borough of Kirklees has no direct bus to Huddersfield) so I'm hoping that it will be possible to access the temporary platforms at Hillhouse on foot, rather than having to take a replacement bus into town just to walk back out again to the stadium. Depending on where exactly the temporary station is located, Deighton might still be a better option even with a longer walk, as it won't involve being solicited after evening games!
 

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