Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[IanXC]

On the Up side opposite the main station building, where the previous lines and platforms used to be. A bit might have to be chopped off the Huddersfield end of the platform, but there's lots of room at the Leeds end to build there.

All things said though, the work might easily be to do with the recent engineering work, or as elsewhere on the route just a general heavy tidy up.

Oh wow, I had no idea there ever was a platform there. Would probably end up needing to effectively adjust the usage of the current lines so some significant realignments would bee needed.

All of this said, the current timetable appears to work reasonably well with the eastbound overtaking at Dewsbury, and the westbound at Mirfield...

 

[Spartacus]

There was another island platform, then another for for the Chickenley route to Ossett, though that was quickly closed after passenger services were withdrawn, 7 platforms in total including the Birstall branch.

 

[John S2]

the current timetable appears to work reasonably well with the eastbound overtaking at Dewsbury, and the westbound at Mirfield...

Westbound is unacceptable for a major route. There definitely needs to be an opportunity for overtaking in the westbound direction earlier than Mirfield.

 

[Mollman]

Oh wow, I had no idea there ever was a platform there. Would probably end up needing to effectively adjust the usage of the current lines so some significant realignments would bee needed.

All of this said, the current timetable appears to work reasonably well with the eastbound overtaking at Dewsbury, and the westbound at Mirfield...

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...e:Batley_(ex-GN)_Station_1771371_6e6129fc.jpg

Unfortunately the post upgrade electrification will be trying to fit in six fast trains and at least two locals an hour in each direction.

 

[IanXC]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...e:Batley_(ex-GN)_Station_1771371_6e6129fc.jpg

Unfortunately the post upgrade electrification will be trying to fit in six fast trains and at least two locals an hour in each direction.

Thanks, facinating picture - seems a good portion of that land has been sold off and developed.

Hmm yes that's possibly true, however if the cost at this location is prohibitive then I could imagine some flexibility between the fast/semi fast/slow trains. I suppose a lot of this comes down to how the modelling and cost looks for 4 tracking Heaton Lodge to Thornhill LNW.

 

[keith1879]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...e:Batley_(ex-GN)_Station_1771371_6e6129fc.jpg

Unfortunately the post upgrade electrification will be trying to fit in six fast trains and at least two locals an hour in each direction.

Is that the case? Plans for the current TP franchise are 4 fast and 2 local per hour.

 

[IanXC]

Is that the case? Plans for the current TP franchise are 4 fast and 2 local per hour.

There's more than that currently so what would be the purpose of an upgrade?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Oh wow, I had no idea there ever was a platform there. Would probably end up needing to effectively adjust the usage of the current lines so some significant realignments would bee needed.

All of this said, the current timetable appears to work reasonably well with the eastbound overtaking at Dewsbury, and the westbound at Mirfield...

The present situation sees the through line at Dewsbury only used for overtaking sporadically. As the loop is short, the fast service can't enter the section preceding Dewsbury until the stopper enters the loop. The stopper then must remain at the platform (or rather at the signal controlling the exit of the loop) until the fast clears the next section. As a result, the stopping service will have an extended dwell before proceeding:- unlike the Westbound situation at Mirfield.

Extending the loop would either mean widening Dewsbury viaduct (which would be stupidly expensive if it's even possible) or widening the trackbed on the Huddersfield side of the station. This would also be expensive, even if it can be done without also having to lower the surface of the A643 Huddersfield Road.

With regard to Batley, I hadn't considered that a new line around the back of platform 2 could become the line serving the platform, and this would negate the linespeed issues... however the Mirfield overtaking section should be adequate, at least more so than the Dewsbury loop in the other direction.

 

[John S2]

There's more than that currently so what would be the purpose of an upgrade?

It's quite simple. Manchester & Leeds are 2 of the largest cities in the country and the journey time between them by train is a disgrace - totally unacceptable. Higher linespeeds and a greater number of passing loops are required.

 

[keith1879]

It's quite simple. Manchester & Leeds are 2 of the largest cities in the country and the journey time between them by train is a disgrace - totally unacceptable. Higher linespeeds and a greater number of passing loops are required.

Yes - at about 25 minutes from the start of the internet video on TP route upgrade
the intended outputs from this work are stated as improved journey times and reliability - TP service is confirmed as 4 fast (clockface) and 2 semi-fast. Is there any documented intention to run extra services compared with today?

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

15 minute intervals for fast intercity will be adequate, I imagine. The main issue is that capacity on those trains is there. As a regular commuter between the two - it's fine if you can get a seat (the Wi-Fi is good too on the refurbed sets) as work is very do-able for the 50 minute journey time. Major problems really occur when you have to stand instead. Then it suddenly is rather unpleasant - journey length seems that much greater and if you're standing the train is often uncomfortably full; people down the aisles, etc.

 

[IanXC]

It's quite simple. Manchester & Leeds are 2 of the largest cities in the country and the journey time between them by train is a disgrace - totally unacceptable. Higher linespeeds and a greater number of passing loops are required.

Point being that what you are suggesting would be an improved service deliverable after the TRU is complete is less than the current service level!

May's timetable sees 6 TPE and 1 Northern service per hour, in each direction between Leeds and Mirfield.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Devegetation works especially Leeds-Huddersfield have kicked up a gear with some fairly extensive sites now having been de-vegetated.

 

[eisenach]

Devegetation works especially Leeds-Huddersfield have kicked up a gear with some fairly extensive sites now having been de-vegetated.

I was impressed by the amount of work that's been done. I was also impressed by the state of the track between Manchester and Leeds. I was less impressed by the journey time and the speeds attained on that part of the journey.

I went to see my Dad who's been moved into a home after being unwell. I've always driven from Leominster to Leeds (Birstall) but used the train last week for the first time, as I've been driving up regularly over the last couple of months and this time I wouldn't need car when I was there.

The Marches line seemed pretty quick (although a bit bumpy in places) with a speed app on my new-fangled phone often shewing 90mph plus and over 100mph between Crewe and Manchester (a peak of 105mph on the journey back). By contrast, the trans-pennine route never got above 75mph either way. It's also pretty mind-boggling that it's never been electrified. The masts for the old scheme go just past Stalybridge, rusting away. The gap to Leeds is not all that far, although the tunnels would probably make it expensive to do.

Nevertheless, 4 hours from Leominster to Birstall Market Square (Arriva bus from Leeds) isn't bad. (I wonder if getting off at Huddersfield or Dewsbury and catching the bus from there would be quicker. I'm a Leeds lad, though, so via Leeds it was. Leeds City station hasn't half changed since I was a teenager in the 70s. The old freight lines at the back now even have passenger platforms ! (Didn't stop a Class 60 coming through on a train of tank waggons, though)).

 

[twpsaesneg]

The masts for the old scheme go just past Stalybridge, rusting away.

Eh? The line is wired up to Guide Bridge with about 8 of the old portals left up the line towards Stalybridge, mainly around the river bridges. There's certainly nothing beyond Stalybridge - the MSW system never got that far.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was impressed by the amount of work that's been done. I was also impressed by the state of the track between Manchester and Leeds. I was less impressed by the journey time and the speeds attained on that part of the journey.

I went to see my Dad who's been moved into a home after being unwell. I've always driven from Leominster to Leeds (Birstall) but used the train last week for the first time, as I've been driving up regularly over the last couple of months and this time I wouldn't need car when I was there.

The Marches line seemed pretty quick (although a bit bumpy in places) with a speed app on my new-fangled phone often shewing 90mph plus and over 100mph between Crewe and Manchester (a peak of 105mph on the journey back). By contrast, the trans-pennine route never got above 75mph either way. It's also pretty mind-boggling that it's never been electrified. The masts for the old scheme go just past Stalybridge, rusting away. The gap to Leeds is not all that far, although the tunnels would probably make it expensive to do.

Nevertheless, 4 hours from Leominster to Birstall Market Square (Arriva bus from Leeds) isn't bad. (I wonder if getting off at Huddersfield or Dewsbury and catching the bus from there would be quicker. I'm a Leeds lad, though, so via Leeds it was. Leeds City station hasn't half changed since I was a teenager in the 70s. The old freight lines at the back now even have passenger platforms ! (Didn't stop a Class 60 coming through on a train of tank waggons, though)).

Regarding bus from Huddersfield, I'd definitely avoid at rush hour because you'd be crawling from one jam to the next one half a mile away pretty much all the way. The 229 only gets any use from me on strike days as a result. It also takes a brief detour off the A62 at Roberttown which if you're even remotely affected by motion sickness is quite an adventure, especially as it's often the fastest stretch for the reasons mentioned above. From Dewsbury the 281/283 is your option. Not a bad route though it does go round the houses a bit at Batley Carr. All routes are Arriva.

As for Leeds station, never mind since the 70s, it's unrecognisable from my teens in the 1990s!

 

[eisenach]

As for Leeds station, never mind since the 70s, it's unrecognisable from my teens in the 1990s!

Ah, well, I'm old. I remember seeing my Dad off on a steam hauled Pullman for King's Cross from Leeds Central. And taking a new DMU from Horsforth (when the old wooden booking office on the bridge was still there) to Central and then another DMU out from one of the short platforms on the far side to Armley to go see my Mum's aunties.
My abiding memory of Central was how dirty it was.

 

[themiller]

Ah, well, I'm old. I remember seeing my Dad off on a steam hauled Pullman for King's Cross from Leeds Central. And taking a new DMU from Horsforth (when the old wooden booking office on the bridge was still there) to Central and then another DMU out from one of the short platforms on the far side to Armley to go see my Mum's aunties.
My abiding memory of Central was how dirty it was.

The current station is no better - it's just different dirt. I walked over the footbridge at the east end of the station and on approaching the north end I looked up and saw loads of some sort of dust or other such substance coating everything above head height. In the west end bays behind the buffer stops, there's fluff which I couldn't identify immediately as it was so deep. Given the requirements of the Workplace Regs., it should have been kept clean as I believe that the station counts as a 'workplace'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The current station is no better - it's just different dirt. I walked over the footbridge at the east end of the station and on approaching the north end I looked up and saw loads of some sort of dust or other such substance coating everything above head height. In the west end bays behind the buffer stops, there's fluff which I couldn't identify immediately as it was so deep. Given the requirements of the Workplace Regs., it should have been kept clean as I believe that the station counts as a 'workplace'.

The Eastern footbridge is peculiar really. It was barely touched in the 1999 rebuild and now feels (much like the whole of that end of the station) like it's been forgotten. For all the money that was spent in that rebuild we've been given a station that (fittingly I guess, given the history) feels very different depending on where you're travelling to. If you're going towards Harrogate or Ilkley/Skipton you're in luck: your platforms will be reasonably clean and well-staffed... but if you're going to York or Selby you'll have to hike down to the windswept East end where even shelter is hard to come by. Then there's the notorious platform 17, home of the Nottingham service. Better give yourself plenty of time to fight your way over the too-narrow footbridge, down a narrow staircase which has a long landing taking you further away from your train for no discernible reason... onto platform 16 which is frequently overcrowded with people waiting for delayed cross-Pennine services... and yet still to get to your Nottingham train you'll need to double back on yourself and hope the crowds alighting from your train or the one behind it don't inadvertently push you onto the tracks... Oh, and I hope you don't need any staff assistance because you'll be lucky to see anyone who isn't frantically rushing through the crowds to their next duty!

Sure, the roof is a bit nicer than the old filthy corrugated box, but 2 decades of diesel exhaust have rather aged that prematurely too.

Compared to Manchester Piccadilly it's an absolute dive, especially considering both were refurbished around the same time.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The Eastern footbridge is peculiar really. It was barely touched in the 1999 rebuild and now feels (much like the whole of that end of the station) like it's been forgotten. For all the money that was spent in that rebuild we've been given a station that (fittingly I guess, given the history) feels very different depending on where you're travelling to. If you're going towards Harrogate or Ilkley/Skipton you're in luck: your platforms will be reasonably clean and well-staffed... but if you're going to York or Selby you'll have to hike down to the windswept East end where even shelter is hard to come by. Then there's the notorious platform 17, home of the Nottingham service. Better give yourself plenty of time to fight your way over the too-narrow footbridge, down a narrow staircase which has a long landing taking you further away from your train for no discernible reason... onto platform 16 which is frequently overcrowded with people waiting for delayed cross-Pennine services... and yet still to get to your Nottingham train you'll need to double back on yourself and hope the crowds alighting from your train or the one behind it don't inadvertently push you onto the tracks... Oh, and I hope you don't need any staff assistance because you'll be lucky to see anyone who isn't frantically rushing through the crowds to their next duty!

Sure, the roof is a bit nicer than the old filthy corrugated box, but 2 decades of diesel exhaust have rather aged that prematurely too.

Compared to Manchester Piccadilly it's an absolute dive, especially considering both were refurbished around the same time.

Absolutely agree, hopefully, this Leeds Station master plan as part of the HS2 and NPR stuff will make a huge difference, but alas I will be keeping my hopes down. For a relatively recent rebuild the station is a joke.

 

[AndrewE]

The Eastern footbridge is peculiar really..... Then there's the notorious platform 17, home of the Nottingham service....
Sure, the roof is a bit nicer than the old filthy corrugated box, but 2 decades of diesel exhaust have rather aged that prematurely too.
Compared to Manchester Piccadilly it's an absolute dive, especially considering both were refurbished around the same time.

Absolutely agree, hopefully, this Leeds Station master plan as part of the HS2 and NPR stuff will make a huge difference, but alas I will be keeping my hopes down. For a relatively recent rebuild the station is a joke.

I don't doubt that some bits are less than ideal, but at least it has had extra platforms and entrances/exits installed. Piccadilly hasn't, apart from the entrance via the tram station. I wonder whether its' just that traffic has grown far faster than was ever imagined?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't doubt that some bits are less than ideal, but at least it has had extra platforms and entrances/exits installed. Piccadilly hasn't, apart from the entrance via the tram station. I wonder whether its' just that traffic has grown far faster than was ever imagined?

I can't speak for my ursine fellow tyke, but my issue was less with the rail-side infrastructure (though growth has indeed exceeded expectations), and more with the passenger-facing appearance and facilities.

Piccadilly is welcoming, open and appears to be well looked-after. Leeds on the other hand is badly designed in certain areas, claustrophobic, and above all filthy. Unfortunately it'll probably always be hamstrung by the awful 1960s main concourse unless a ridiculous amount of money is spent and an awful lot of disruption caused while we "rip it up and start again".

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Also the congestion around the ticket barriers is awful. It's a real challenge if you've got an Airedale train disgorging commuters, and then they have to walk right into the station up to the barriers and then half of them have to go through the conflicting flow of people coming down from the main bridge if they want to use the Southern Entrance. It's even worse if that combines with a London train being on stand on platform 6!

The eastern footbridge is definitely pretty forlorn, though, you're right there. But in general, the pedestrian flows around the station are just awful. It could do with starting again from scratch to be honest.

 

[Grumpy]

. If you're going towards Harrogate or Ilkley/Skipton you're in luck: your platforms will be reasonably clean and well-staffed... but if you're going to York or Selby you'll have to hike down to the windswept East end where even shelter is hard to come by. .

I would argue that you hardly ever notice any staff on the Harrogate or Ilkley/Skipton platforms other than for despatch- which must be the same for the eastern platforms. Similarly with the prevailing winds being from the west, the westerly platforms are more exposed than the eastern ones.
If the Ilkley/Skipton/Harrogate platforms are cleaner than the eastern platforms or 17 then I put that down to the superior nature of the passengers.

 

[CdBrux]

I don't think there is much new in this, apart from confirmation that NR has now delivered a series of options to the government so they can see what they can get for the 3 billion set aside in CP6

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-announces-3bn-upgrades-to-transpennine-route

A £3bn programme of upgrades to the TransPennine route is expected to begin in spring 2019, Chris Grayling has announced.

Speaking at the Transport for the Northern Powerhouse conference in Leeds last Friday, the transport secretary said that the project would deliver significantly better journeys for passengers and drive forward economic growth in the region.

Grayling told the conference: “I want to realise passenger benefits from the £3bn we have ring-fenced for the Pennine route as fast as possible.

“Network Rail has already begun detailed designs, and provided us with options for the TransPennine Route Upgrade to meet the objectives we’ve set out - for journey times, capacity and reliability.

“That – in turn – has given us an opportunity to undertake the work in phases starting as soon as spring next year.

“This is not just about meeting rising demand for train travel. It’s about transforming journeys too.”

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have a feeling that Leeds- York will be electrified and to Selby. Improvements will be made to Huddleston Curve. 4 tracking will happen at Heaton Lodge to Ravensthorpe. Miles Platting area to Heyrod Grid Feeder will be electrified. As to the bits in the middle - I really have no idea.

 

[CdBrux]

If the indications from the NR engineers talk posted on youtube from about 12 months ago are still valid then line speed improvements along the route and grade separation in the area to the east of Huddersfield were the primary speed and capacity levers as I remember. An emphasis on reliability is in general becoming more prominent as are possibilities for new stations to support new housing.
I wonder how much input TftN will have. National Government has set the funding, surely should be for TfTN to set the priorities from the options offered

 

[snowball]

I don't think there is much new in this, apart from confirmation that NR has now delivered a series of options to the government so they can see what they can get for the 3 billion set aside in CP6

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-announces-3bn-upgrades-to-transpennine-route

The DfT press release version of this appeared on Friday:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...pgrade-and-crossrail-2-to-advance-in-lockstep

News story
Grayling: progress on Transpennine route upgrade and Crossrail 2 to advance in lockstep
£3 billion upgrade programme for Transpennine rail route.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has announced today (2 March 2018) that he expects a £3 billion programme of upgrades to the Transpennine route to begin from spring 2019, as an Independent Affordability Review is established to ensure the affordability of Crossrail 2.

Speaking in Leeds, Mr Grayling said that whilst work is underway on the key route between Manchester, Leeds and York, he expects Network Rail to begin investing the £3 billion into an ambitious rolling programme of works as soon as possible.

Mr Grayling also reaffirmed the government’s commitment to ensuring transport improvements across the country advances in lockstep, announcing that an Independent Affordability Review, commissioned jointly by the Department for Transport and Transport for London, has been established to ensure that Crossrail 2 demonstrates affordability and value for money to the taxpayer.

The Transport Secretary also said he will work with local authorities along the Transpennine route to discuss how to maximise the benefits of the £3 billion investment, such as creating new stations to increase access to the railway and finding opportunities for housing development.

At the Transport for the Northern Powerhouse conference, Mr Grayling said:

I want to realise passenger benefits from the £3 billion we have ring-fenced for the Pennine route as fast as possible.

Network Rail has already begun detailed designs, and provided us with options for the Transpennine Route Upgrade to meet the objectives we’ve set out - for journey times, capacity and reliability.

That – in turn – has given us an opportunity to undertake the work in phases starting as soon as spring next year.

This is not just about meeting rising demand for train travel. It’s about transforming journeys too.

The Transport Secretary also said he will work with local authorities along the Transpennine route to discuss how to maximise the benefits of the £3 billion investment, such as creating new stations to increase access to the railway and finding opportunities for housing development.

The Independent Affordability Review into Crossrail 2, commissioned jointly by the Department for Transport and Transport for London, is an important step in developing the project.

It will focus on the affordability of the project, ensuring the project learns from the best practice exhibited by projects like Crossrail, and that those who stand to benefit from new infrastructure contribute to funding it. Mike Gerrard, former managing director of Thames Tideway Tunnel, has agreed to lead the review, ensuring the public gets an affordable scheme that is fair to the UK taxpayer.

Chair of the Independent Affordability Review, Mike Gerrard said:

Crossrail 2 has the potential to relieve congestion and unlock housing, jobs and development to support future growth in London, but it is imperative that it can be delivered in an affordable way that is fair to both the London public and the wider UK taxpayer.

Major projects work best when independent reviews, drawing on a wealth of experience, help move them from plans to spades in the ground. I am delighted to chair this crucial review and I look forward to working with the Department for Transport and Transport for London to ensure that Crossrail 2 is the best project it can be.

Mike Brown, London’s Transport Commissioner, said:

We welcome the government’s backing for infrastructure projects of national importance such as Crossrail 2 and are pleased to be working with the Department for Transport on the Independent Affordability Review led by Mike Gerrard. This is an important step forward for a project that is vital for London, as reflected in the Mayor’s Transport Strategy, and for the whole of the south-east region.

The Review is expected to conclude in summer 2018.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

----- then line speed improvements along the route and grade separation in the area to the east of Huddersfield were the primary speed and capacity levers ---

To go fast avoid going slow --- and one of the slowest parts was Man Vic - Stalybridge so I expect something definitely to be done there and indeed some work has already been done.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think there is much new in this, apart from confirmation that NR has now delivered a series of options to the government so they can see what they can get for the 3 billion set aside in CP6

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-announces-3bn-upgrades-to-transpennine-route

Hmmmm... is that a record for the least said in the most words? Probably not up there with the famous Ted Cruz "Green Eggs & Ham" filibuster, but not far off!