Transpennine Route Upgrade & electrification: What should be done, and how it should be done?

[YorksLad12]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pgrade-and-electrification-updates-cp6.88054/

Yes- the slow lines will be furthest from the main entrance using platforms 4 (currently 8) and 5 (newly constructed). Not sure what the plan is regarding the conflicting moves highlighted by @Halish Railway , but as everything will stop at Huddersfield anyway (so speeds will be lower) a relatively simple crossing move twice an hour shouldn't be too much of a problem.

It's a moot point as it isn't happening, but if the four-tracking could be extended westwards from Huddersfield you could have simultaneous departures and arrivals in both directions. But then you'd just be pushing the crossover issue to Marsden, and I think we're agreed that any NPR tunnel would be north of the existing railway, not south. Unless you dive under before Marsden and cross underneath the existing railway (and Standedge Tunnels)...

 

[snowball]

It's a moot point as it isn't happening, but if the four-tracking could be extended westwards from Huddersfield you could have simultaneous departures and arrivals in both directions. But then you'd just be pushing the crossover issue to Marsden, and I think we're agreed that any NPR tunnel would be north of the existing railway, not south. Unless you dive under before Marsden and cross underneath the existing railway (and Standedge Tunnels)...

In my opinion the hardest part of that would be not at Marsden but immediately west of Huddersfield station.

 

[AndrewE]

In my opinion the hardest part of that would be not at Marsden but immediately west of Huddersfield station.

so run your base tunnel directly from new platforms north of the existing ones at Huddersfield, under the old warehouse straight towards Oldham or somewhere sensible on the W side of the Pennines. Stalybridge isn't a very good access point for Manchester, whereas the old line in from Rochdale is straighter and looks to have plenty of space for widening..

 

[Halish Railway]

Platform 2 the original and older Stockport bay is going to be removed in the remodeling leaving just the current platform 5 for turnbacks. Stockport trains will just use the through lines.

A disappointment in my view as it rules out the possibility of feasibly running a Stalybridge to Piccadilly stopping service that could speed up the Piccadilly to Hadfield and Rose Hill Marple service, removing the need for slow Sprinters to accelerate the gradients from a standing start at Gorton and Fairfield. It would also make it easier for users of the Hadfield line as well as those of the Reddish area to reach West Yorkshire, saving the need to go into Piccadilly and back out again.

 

[SuperNova]

A disappointment in my view as it rules out the possibility of feasibly running a Stalybridge to Piccadilly stopping service that could speed up the Piccadilly to Hadfield and Rose Hill Marple service, removing the need for slow Sprinters to accelerate the gradients from a standing start at Gorton and Fairfield. It would also make it easier for users of the Hadfield line as well as those of the Reddish area to reach West Yorkshire, saving the need to go into Piccadilly and back out again.

A far simpler solution for that would be for the Huddersfield stoppers to call at Guide Bridge.

 

[Watershed]

A far simpler solution for that would be for the Huddersfield stoppers to call at Guide Bridge.

Which they have plenty time to do, as they have quite a bit of pathing approaching Piccadilly, due to having to wait until the Hull (Scarborough/Newcastle from December) train departs. I've always thought that failing to call at Guide Bridge is rather a missed opportunity.

 

[Jozhua]

The issue with TPU is that DaFT doesn't know what it's purpose is, therefore it's going to end up being massively over the top, or not enough.

If it's to become a regional/commuter route, electrification and better signalling makes sense. However express tracks and increased speed may be less useful if IC trains go through some kind of base tunnel.

On the contrary, heavy upgrades will be needed if it is to be the primary intercity route for the next 50/100 years.

The Disintegrated Fail Plan didn't deliver the certainty needed, therefore we're stuck again in the cycle of constant redesigns and cost/time overruns.

Either way, investment is long overdue, even if it isn't going to go as far as it should due to gov mismanagement.

 

[Revaulx]

Which they have plenty time to do, as they have quite a bit of pathing approaching Piccadilly, due to having to wait until the Hull (Scarborough/Newcastle from December) train departs. I've always thought that failing to call at Guide Bridge is rather a missed opportunity.

Probably because Hudds-Manchester was historically LNWR/LMS, while Guide Bridge was a bastion of the hated Great Central/LNER.

Old rivalries die hard

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Probably because Hudds-Manchester was historically LNWR/LMS, while Guide Bridge was a bastion of the hated Great Central/LNER.

Old rivalries die hard

There's a lot of talk about such historical rivalries being carried on long after they were relevant, but I'm not sure there's much to support it... not that there would be, given the informal nature of such things of course.

More likely, services from Huddersfield and beyond didn't call at Guide Bridge because they were the expresses and until fairly recently there was naff all at Guide Bridge worth calling for other than rusty sidings- presumably there's a bit more housing now, but it's a good while since I've been up that way. Certainly the handful of Huddersfield to Glossop passengers wouldn't be enough to justify it, as the demand couldn't support a summer-only bus service. The stoppers all went to Victoria until a few years ago so there wasn't anything suitable to make those calls.

 

[SuperNova]

There's a lot of talk about such historical rivalries being carried on long after they were relevant, but I'm not sure there's much to support it... not that there would be, given the informal nature of such things of course.

More likely, services from Huddersfield and beyond didn't call at Guide Bridge because they were the expresses and until fairly recently there was naff all at Guide Bridge worth calling for other than rusty sidings- presumably there's a bit more housing now, but it's a good while since I've been up that way. Certainly the handful of Huddersfield to Glossop passengers wouldn't be enough to justify it, as the demand couldn't support a summer-only bus service. The stoppers all went to Victoria until a few years ago so there wasn't anything suitable to make those calls.

A journey between Stalybridge and Glossop takes 70 minutes. You could quite easily cut 30 minutes off that by stopping the MAN-HUD stopper at Guide Bridge. The railway needs to be about journey opportunities and by calling a service at an extra stop, without any impact to performance given the padding, providing those opportunities - well to me it seems a no brainer. Also, the Northern peak stoppers in the evening that initially ran in 2018/2019 before TPE moved the Hull services to peak time stoppers definitely stopped at Guide Bridge from MAN to HUD.

The issue with TPU is that DaFT doesn't know what it's purpose is, therefore it's going to end up being massively over the top, or not enough.

This. I think the problem with TRU (and wider NPR) comes down to too many cooks spoiling the broth.

 

[johnnychips]

A journey between Stalybridge and Glossop takes 70 minutes. You could quite easily cut 30 minutes off that by stopping the MAN-HUD stopper at Guide Bridge.

I am not sure of a great deal of demand between Stalybridge and Glossop. Most people from Glossop would only be heading in that direction for Tameside Hospital or Ashton. There is a bus between the two, Stagecoach 237, which interestedly has been proposed for withdrawal. It takes 31 minutes between Glossop and Stalybridge.

 

[edwin_m]

I am not sure of a great deal of demand between Stalybridge and Glossop. Most people from Glossop would only be heading in that direction for Tameside Hospital or Ashton. There is a bus between the two, Stagecoach 237, which inetestingly has been proposed for withdrawal.

Guide Bridge does open up potential connections via Hyde too. It's also a P&R site that might be attractive for passengers accessing via the M60 and wanting to cross the Pennines.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A journey between Stalybridge and Glossop takes 70 minutes. You could quite easily cut 30 minutes off that by stopping the MAN-HUD stopper at Guide Bridge. The railway needs to be about journey opportunities and by calling a service at an extra stop, without any impact to performance given the padding, providing those opportunities - well to me it seems a no brainer. Also, the Northern peak stoppers in the evening that initially ran in 2018/2019 before TPE moved the Hull services to peak time stoppers definitely stopped at Guide Bridge from MAN to HUD.


This. I think the problem with TRU (and wider NPR) comes down to too many cooks spoiling the broth.

Yes, now that the Huddersfield stopper runs that way, it might well be worth calling at Guide Bridge. However up until a few years ago the only TPE services that way were the 'fast' services.
Is there not a bus from Stalybridge towards Glossop? That strikes me as a market that could be adequately served by buses, and if there isn't a service currently it probably isn't a factor that should influence the railway's priorities, as it suggests demand isn't particularly high.

 

[jonesy3001]

Yes, now that the Huddersfield stopper runs that way, it might well be worth calling at Guide Bridge. However up until a few years ago the only TPE services that way were the 'fast' services.
Is there not a bus from Stalybridge towards Glossop? That strikes me as a market that could be adequately served by buses, and if there isn't a service currently it probably isn't a factor that should influence the railway's priorities, as it suggests demand isn't particularly high.

There is the 237 that goes from ashton - stalybridge - glossop, don't know if it still runs like.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/6ZKyqJiFbEgDjixsxpSfwU/9e9384b0dd38ade34ebdb291aabb8ad0/237_22-SC-0350.pdf

 

[johnnychips]

There is the 237 that goes from ashton - stalybridge - glossop, don't know if it still runs like.

I think threads have been crossed a bit, but as you said there is an half-hourly service during the day. The complication is that Stagecoach have threatened to withdraw it. I’m sure if I looked at the Buses subsection I could find out more. Either way I can’t think of many reasons why anyone would travel from Glossop to Stalybridge; the other way round maybe as Glossop is a nice town.

 

[cle]

Guide Bridge really should be a target for large development. Three rail lines fan out from there (in theory, if not in service!) - Glossop, Stalybridge and Hyde.

If taken seriously, you could have a lot of TOD housing and a newer town centre, with high frequency services into Manchester and branches out to various spots. Something of a small local hub. Would no doubt need another platform or two reinstating.

And if the Met came along instead, it could be the same.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Guide Bridge really should be a target for large development. Three rail lines fan out from there

agreed, but, umm, 5; service from Picc, and the almost unused Stockport via Denton. It isn't just Hyde, it's New Mills, Marple, etc, a substantial swathe of East Manchester that a stop at Guide Bridge to/fro Stalybridge would cover. The dissuasion of getting a slow local bus (the road network is effectively middle ages trackways with M60 & A57M superrimposed on it) would make most with a car use it rather than go into Picc to change.

 

[SuperNova]

Yes, now that the Huddersfield stopper runs that way, it might well be worth calling at Guide Bridge. However up until a few years ago the only TPE services that way were the 'fast' services.
Is there not a bus from Stalybridge towards Glossop? That strikes me as a market that could be adequately served by buses, and if there isn't a service currently it probably isn't a factor that should influence the railway's priorities, as it suggests demand isn't particularly high.

The point isn't if there's a bus between two locations. The point is that there's a saving of 30 minutes to be made by having an interchange point at Guide Bridge which makes rail travel more attractive. Something which should be actively looked at now and most certainly post-TRU.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The point isn't if there's a bus between two locations. The point is that there's a saving of 30 minutes to be made by having an interchange point at Guide Bridge which makes rail travel more attractive. Something which should be actively looked at now and most certainly post-TRU.

The lack of a bus service, or there being a service that struggles, does suggest that there isn't a huge amount of demand for the journeys you'd be trying to make easier. Or at least that seems to be the perceived wisdom of Railforums.

Now that the stoppers go through Guide Bridge, calling there is probably worth looking into. But some seem to be suggesting it should have happened decades ago when TPE services were using 2 and 3-car 158s at 3tph, and Guide Bridge was even more of a graffiti and industrial waste-strewn hellhole.

 

[Spartacus]

Trouble is in the other direction that until things are speeded up what little slack there is between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge isn't enough to get a stop in at Guide Bridge when the stopper has a Redcar up it's backside into Huddersfield, which has the next stopper following in it straight out of Huddersfield, which has a Hull up it's backside at Whitehall Jn...

 

[Halifaxlad]

It's a moot point as it isn't happening, but if the four-tracking could be extended westwards from Huddersfield you could have simultaneous departures and arrivals in both directions.

I thought it was being four tracked to Marsden, anyway what really could do with discussing is what to do about the line between Huddersfield and Leeds, in particular the (future) two track section between Ravensthorpe and Leeds.

Personally I would like to see a new line to Leeds combined with a new line to Bradford, it could follow the M62 with a spur to connect up with the existing lime at Low Moor to connect Bradford.

Obviously they are otherway but the above is my preference.

 

[edwin_m]

Trouble is in the other direction that until things are speeded up what little slack there is between Guide Bridge and Stalybridge isn't enough to get a stop in at Guide Bridge when the stopper has a Redcar up it's backside into Huddersfield, which has the next stopper following in it straight out of Huddersfield, which has a Hull up it's backside at Whitehall Jn...

Some timetable recasting would be needed to fit an extra stop in. The service shares platforms at Piccadilly with the Glossop service which doesn't interact with anything else, and with the Marple routes that may have some flexibility too.

 

[stuu]

With my crayons out, I would have thought a direct route going straight on at Heaton Lodge and into Leeds along the M621 corridor would be sensible. Then the existing line could run at metro frequencies between Huddersfield and Leeds, with new stations as well

 

[Spartacus]

With my crayons out, I would have thought a direct route going straight on at Heaton Lodge and into Leeds along the M621 corridor would be sensible. Then the existing line could run at metro frequencies between Huddersfield and Leeds, with new stations as well

Tunnelling I'm guessing? Could save quite a lot of time, but what with having to dive under the valley and river Spen at Heckmondwike (same altitude as the railway at Heaton Lodge, after that Birstall shouldn't be an issue) and the huge number of old coal mines might it be problematic.

 

[Halifaxlad]

With my crayons out, I would have thought a direct route going straight on at Heaton Lodge and into Leeds along the M621 corridor would be sensible. Then the existing line could run at metro frequencies between Huddersfield and Leeds, with new stations as well

When TRU is completed you will be able to have metro frequencies at stations between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe. I don't see much point bypassing this bit.

Ideally a brand new line could be created diverging off the existing line just before Morley tunnel, either following the M621 bypassing Morley and White Rose or by following the M62 then the M621 to Leeds South bank and into a brand new station as proposed by HS2.

If the existing viaducts through Dewsbury and Batley could also be widened then you could have a fully segregated route between Huddersfield and Leeds.