Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Andyh82]

I had first hand experience today of how this isn’t just effecting TPE but disrupting other operators as well

They cancelled the 1743 out of Newcastle this afternoon, It was cancelled during the day it was still down as running this morning. Passengers were told to board the LNER service and due to the sheer number of passengers trying to board (there had been a match on), the service lost 15 minutes as staff were struggling to dispatch it what with the crowds on the platform that kept coming and the curved platform. Hence LNER may have ended up paying out Delay Repay to their passengers as well

 

[Urobach]

But on the return, oh dear! The 1818 cancelled, the 1918 eventually departed at 1954 when the driver could finally be bothered to drag himself away from the rest room

The driver of the 19:18 was due to work 1B87 in to Picc (19:05 arrival) which shock horror was cancelled....

 

[APT618S]

TPE currently causing chaos at York with 4 out of the 5 through platforms blocked with their delayed/cancelled trains

 

[sjpowermac]

TPE currently causing chaos at York with 4 out of the 5 through platforms blocked with their delayed/cancelled trains

There was a fatality this evening at Cross Gates with the result that trains were unable to run between Leeds and York from approximately 1900 to 2045, with the consequent dislocation of staff and trains.

In such situations, it’s usual to divert trains via Castleford, but that wasn’t possible today due to a possession of the line in connection with the new disabled access lifts/footbridge plus second platform being installed.

Hope that helps.

 

[Failed Unit]

I had first hand experience today of how this isn’t just effecting TPE but disrupting other operators as well

They cancelled the 1743 out of Newcastle this afternoon, It was cancelled during the day it was still down as running this morning. Passengers were told to board the LNER service and due to the sheer number of passengers trying to board (there had been a match on), the service lost 15 minutes as staff were struggling to dispatch it what with the crowds on the platform that kept coming and the curved platform. Hence LNER may have ended up paying out Delay Repay to their passengers as well

EMR are also getting a lot of extra passengers which is causing them problems. The South TPE route is causing the Manchester - Sheffield route to suffer (as already discussed). Bad enough if they can do 4 car - but as we know they are often short formed.

Grimsby- Lincoln also seems a lot busier then normal (Assume passengers heading to the Midlands and London are using it instead)

 

[APT618S]

There was a fatality this evening at Cross Gates with the result that trains were unable to run between Leeds and York from approximately 1900 to 2045, with the consequent dislocation of staff and trains.

In such situations, it’s usual to divert trains via Castleford, but that wasn’t possible today due to a possession of the line in connection with the new disabled access lifts/footbridge plus second platform being installed.

Hope that helps.

True, but the changes at York seemed to be very last minute as one northbound cancellation was still on the PIS as running as well as on the side of the train so people were still boarding after several PA announcements that it was cancelled. One southbound had the green signal for quite a while before it seemed to be discovered that they were short of crew.

 

[route101]

Early TPE service from Glasgow ran to Lancaster, usually they go to Preston. I do wonder if we will ever see the normal TPE Scottish services back.

 

[rg177]

TPE currently causing chaos at York with 4 out of the 5 through platforms blocked with their delayed/cancelled trains

And one to Newcastle circa 9:50pm discreetly dispatched with no announcements with gaggles of people trying to go north...

 

[gazzaa2]

EMR are also getting a lot of extra passengers which is causing them problems. The South TPE route is causing the Manchester - Sheffield route to suffer (as already discussed). Bad enough if they can do 4 car - but as we know they are often short formed.

Grimsby- Lincoln also seems a lot busier then normal (Assume passengers heading to the Midlands and London are using it instead)

Puts more pressure on Northern as well on the routes TPE operate and they have their own issues as it is with rolling stock and cancellations.

 

[175001]

But on the return, oh dear! The 1818 cancelled, the 1918 eventually departed at 1954 when the driver could finally be bothered to drag himself away from the rest room.

Ah yes I forgot that the poor buggers at TPE who are having to deal with the mess that management have created, working in a company that's not bothered about their own staff morale, aren't allowed their legal needs break.

 

[DanNCL]

Ah yes I forgot that the poor buggers at TPE who are having to deal with the mess that management have created, working in a company that's not bothered about their own staff morale, aren't allowed their legal needs break.

I appreciate it almost certainly wasn’t the case this time, but I recall an occasion about a year ago where the TPE service I took from Victoria to York (should have been Mk5s from Liverpool but instead was a unit off Ardwick) was about 15 minutes late and the guard directly blamed the delay on the driver spending too much time drinking tea!

 

[sjpowermac]

True, but the changes at York seemed to be very last minute as one northbound cancellation was still on the PIS as running as well as on the side of the train so people were still boarding after several PA announcements that it was cancelled. One southbound had the green signal for quite a while before it seemed to be discovered that they were short of crew.

You say ‘true’ after it has been pointed out to you that there was a fatality and yet you didn’t bother to mention that in your original post.

Did you know about the fatality when you posted? If you did, why did you choose not to mention it? If you knew about the fatality then I think your original post is in incredibly poor taste.

If you didn’t know then why not say something along the lines of ‘thank you for the information, that explains the situation’?

 

[Iskra]

EMR are also getting a lot of extra passengers which is causing them problems. The South TPE route is causing the Manchester - Sheffield route to suffer (as already discussed). Bad enough if they can do 4 car - but as we know they are often short formed.

Grimsby- Lincoln also seems a lot busier then normal (Assume passengers heading to the Midlands and London are using it instead)

Speaking of EMR, I saw an EMR 170 at Sheffield station yesterday (presumably heading for Manchester), it was absolutely rammed because of the TP cancellations. How long have 170's been doing Sheffield-Liverpool? And do they run in pairs or with 15X?

 

[LowLevel]

Speaking of EMR, I saw an EMR 170 at Sheffield station yesterday (presumably heading for Manchester), it was absolutely rammed because of the TP cancellations. How long have 170's been doing Sheffield-Liverpool? And do they run in pairs or with 15X?

They go up when there aren't enough 15x available on the basis that a 3 car 170 is better than a 2 car 15x.

None planned to work but it happens several times a week, there's a set going up to Manchester as we speak to work the 1245 to Nottingham where it'll be swapped for a 158 and work the 1543 Nottingham to Liverpool (started at Nottingham vice Peterborough due to no available units).

A 6 car pair operated the other day due to service disruption but otherwise they've all been 2 or 3 car singles. We now have a multiple working document for the route so they could in theory go up in pairs if they happen to be available.

They don't work with 15x at the moment but some work is in the pipeline to allow them to work with the 158s as the fleet balance shifts to being more heavily 170 shortly - we are losing a fair few 156s in favour of 170s shortly.

 

[EZJ]

I appreciate it almost certainly wasn’t the case this time, but I recall an occasion about a year ago where the TPE service I took from Victoria to York (should have been Mk5s from Liverpool but instead was a unit off Ardwick) was about 15 minutes late and the guard directly blamed the delay on the driver spending too much time drinking tea!

I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. Maybe said in jest but to suggest it as a factual reason for a delay is silly.

 

[Iskra]

They go up when there aren't enough 15x available on the basis that a 3 car 170 is better than a 2 car 15x.

None planned to work but it happens several times a week, there's a set going up to Manchester as we speak to work the 1245 to Nottingham where it'll be swapped for a 158 and work the 1543 Nottingham to Liverpool (started at Nottingham vice Peterborough due to no available units).

A 6 car pair operated the other day due to service disruption but otherwise they've all been 2 or 3 car singles. We now have a multiple working document for the route so they could in theory go up in pairs if they happen to be available.

They don't work with 15x at the moment but some work is in the pipeline to allow them to work with the 158s as the fleet balance shifts to being more heavily 170 shortly - we are losing a fair few 156s in favour of 170s shortly.

Thank you so much for the detailed response I agree that sending a 3-car 170 is sensible and would also add that passengers seem to like their saloon environment (certainly where Northern now use them that appears the case). The ability to run 6 car 170's in the future sounds great to keep passengers moving on the Hope Valley. All credit to EMR and Northern for taking up the slack as much as they can on the route.

Where are more 170's coming from and where are the 156's going please?

 

[Howardh]

I'm always reading about Avanti - the press, MP's, Manchester mayor etc demanding change/improvements, but rarely see anything about TPE's performance. Am I missing something because I'm in Lancashire yet over in Yorkshire and the NE there's a real fuss??

Also, as I haven't read through the thread, are there any significant changes to TPE's winter timetable so that while there could be fewer trains, there's a high chance they'll turn up? Thanks!

 

[LowLevel]

Thank you so much for the detailed response I agree that sending a 3-car 170 is sensible and would also add that passengers seem to like their saloon environment (certainly where Northern now use them that appears the case). The ability to run 6 car 170's in the future sounds great to keep passengers moving on the Hope Valley. All credit to EMR and Northern for taking up the slack as much as they can on the route.

Where are more 170's coming from and where are the 156's going please?

170s are coming from Transport for Wales and West Midlands Railway (3 more from TfW today in fact) and of the 156s some are going to Northern and some don't have a home (as far as I know). Most of the Porterbrook owned ex Anglia and EMT sets are off to Northern, some of the Porterbrook and the 4 Angel Trains sets (which are due major exams) are not spoken for.

 

[800001]

I'm always reading about Avanti - the press, MP's, Manchester mayor etc demanding change/improvements, but rarely see anything about TPE's performance. Am I missing something because I'm in Lancashire yet over in Yorkshire and the NE there's a real fuss??

Also, as I haven't read through the thread, are there any significant changes to TPE's winter timetable so that while there could be fewer trains, there's a high chance they'll turn up? Thanks!

TPEs performance made it on to the News channels this week.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. Maybe said in jest but to suggest it as a factual reason for a delay is silly.

It wasn’t said in a jestful manner, it was said in a rather serious tone, but I think any further conversation on this would be better in the ‘staff looking down on other staff’ thread.

 

[Andyh82]

I'm always reading about Avanti - the press, MP's, Manchester mayor etc demanding change/improvements, but rarely see anything about TPE's performance. Am I missing something because I'm in Lancashire yet over in Yorkshire and the NE there's a real fuss??

Also, as I haven't read through the thread, are there any significant changes to TPE's winter timetable so that while there could be fewer trains, there's a high chance they'll turn up? Thanks!

Although it has made the press this week, I think northern leaders and the northern press barely knew TPE existed as they were obsessed by Northern Rail, probably due to the network being more widespread and the long running saga of poor quality rolling stock, pacers etc etc. Even when there was the Manchester timetabling issue that made the news (was that 2018?), that effected TPE the worst, the media still obsessed over Northern mostly

 

[gazzaa2]

I'm always reading about Avanti - the press, MP's, Manchester mayor etc demanding change/improvements, but rarely see anything about TPE's performance. Am I missing something because I'm in Lancashire yet over in Yorkshire and the NE there's a real fuss??

Also, as I haven't read through the thread, are there any significant changes to TPE's winter timetable so that while there could be fewer trains, there's a high chance they'll turn up? Thanks!

Avanti the bigger story as it affects London.

The north are used to a shoddy service.

 

[Howardh]

Avanti the bigger story as it affects London.

The north are used to a shoddy service.

Around lunchtime today (Sun) the Parliament Channel were showing a replay of the debate in the House of Commons r/e Avanti. As you allude to - nothing about Transpennine!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Around lunchtime today (Sun) the Parliament Channel were showing a replay of the debate in the House of Commons r/e Avanti. As you allude to - nothing about Transpennine!

It’s more of a main line vs others thing. The problems with a couple of London TOCs aren’t getting any air time down south either - it’s all Avanti.

 

[trainophile]

Does anyone know how, last night after the Liverpool v Leeds football match ended (must have been close to 22:00 after a 19:45 kick-off) did the Leeds fans get home? It doesn't look like there were any direct TPE services from Lime Street, and even going via Manchester looked a bit dodgy for timings.

 

[Msq71423]

Something that's affected me a few times now on leisure journeys on the south route is quite annoying, as TPE prefer to cut journeys short on this route once they are over 15 minutes late than continue a delayed service.

On Man-Cleethorpes journeys which might get delayed after leaving Manchester for whatever reason, and arrive in Sheffield over 15 minutes late, the service will end up terminating short at Sheffield, and the out of service train and same crew then continue the journey through to Cleethorpes minus the passengers. This most recently happened to me on Thursday when I was lucky enough (!) to board one of only 2 TPE services running from Man to Cleethorpes that day, the 0615. As the train was due to depart Picc the conductor announced signalling issues meaning it would no longer call at Stockport and take a different route. This led to us being stuck behind a stopper train and arriving approx. half an hour late into Sheffield. Once it became apparent the train was more than 15 minutes late we were told it would terminate at Sheffield. Arriving in Sheffield at approx 0735 the next running service to Cleethorpes was the 0911 meaning what would have been a roughly half hour delay became a much longer delay.

I've recently also waited for a TPE train Meadowhall to Cleethorpes, tracking it's journey on the TPE app as it came over the Pennines. Lo and behold, as soon as it was over 15 minutes late while over the Pennines (20 minutes in this case), the announcement was made the service was cancelled, the app showing the service terminating at Sheffield - but then running empty past me at Meadowhall continuing on to Cleethorpes without passengers 'due to a short notice change to the timetable'. In this case I only had a 2 hour wait until the next train so I was lucky.

Two different more senior colleagues have told me TPE will always prefer to cancel a service than have it running over 15 minutes late when possible as the 'penalties are lesser to cancel a train than have one running over 15 minutes late' with the public reason to always just put the 'short notice change'. This whole situation seems ridiculous to me, and only causes me frustration at having long waits for the next train. I've witnessed this happening behind the scenes at my own station in the north west, where services have been cancelled at very short notice rather than have them run 20 minutes late due to an alleged lesser penalty for a cancellation than a delay for the TOC, and the reason put out was a short notice timetable change.

I am unsure if this rationale applies only to TPE or if it goes off at other TOCs but I think cancellation penalties need to be increased from the DfT to prevent this happening as it only causes passenger frustration to see their train still physically running, albeit 20mins or so late, but not in public use.

 

[gazzaa2]

Does anyone know how, last night after the Liverpool v Leeds football match ended (must have been close to 22:00 after a 19:45 kick-off) did the Leeds fans get home? It doesn't look like there were any direct TPE services from Lime Street, and even going via Manchester looked a bit dodgy for timings.

Not unless they were getting the last trains out to Manchester (wouldn't have got beyond there). I don't think there was any specials put on.

Even if it was a 17.30 kick off the last direct train to Leeds would have been 18:54. The last train out of Manchester to Leeds was the 19:56 from Piccadilly which got delayed at Victoria.

 

[Iskra]

Does anyone know how, last night after the Liverpool v Leeds football match ended (must have been close to 22:00 after a 19:45 kick-off) did the Leeds fans get home? It doesn't look like there were any direct TPE services from Lime Street, and even going via Manchester looked a bit dodgy for timings.

There don’t look to have been many sensible journey itineraries for supporter to get home in the first place, but some services did leave for Manchester which would have provided an option. I suspect anyone on the train would have stayed overnight and had a night on the tiles. However, please remember that a lot of our away support is not actually from Leeds, and I doubt in the PL that train travel appeals much with the constantly changing fixture times.

A keyword search of the extremely busy LUFC supporters forum www.waccoe.com for the words ‘train’ and ‘station’ in the last 24 hours brings up nothing relevant, so one assumes everything was fine. Be warned that that website is not for the easily offended- there is an extremely liberal moderation policy on there.

 

[gazzaa2]

There don’t look to have been many sensible journey itineraries for supporter to get home in the first place, but some services did leave for Manchester which would have provided an option. I suspect anyone on the train would have stayed overnight and had a night on the tiles. However, please remember that a lot of our away support is not actually from Leeds, and I doubt in the PL that train travel appeals much with the constantly changing fixture times.

A keyword search of the extremely busy LUFC supporters forum www.waccoe.com for the words ‘train’ and ‘station’ in the last 24 hours brings up nothing relevant, so one assumes everything was fine. Be warned that that website is not for the easily offended- there is an extremely liberal moderation policy on there.

It's bad enough for 3pm Saturday. A lot of Newcastle/Villa fans had a nightmare getting home yesterday and the trains heading up there beforehand were crush loaded to the max.

Forest fans today on massively overcrowded 5 car EMR's heading into London for Arsenal game today and then chaos at Kings Cross trying to get a train back.

 

[BHXDMT]

Something that's affected me a few times now on leisure journeys on the south route is quite annoying, as TPE prefer to cut journeys short on this route once they are over 15 minutes late than continue a delayed service.

On Man-Cleethorpes journeys which might get delayed after leaving Manchester for whatever reason, and arrive in Sheffield over 15 minutes late, the service will end up terminating short at Sheffield, and the out of service train and same crew then continue the journey through to Cleethorpes minus the passengers. This most recently happened to me on Thursday when I was lucky enough (!) to board one of only 2 TPE services running from Man to Cleethorpes that day, the 0615. As the train was due to depart Picc the conductor announced signalling issues meaning it would no longer call at Stockport and take a different route. This led to us being stuck behind a stopper train and arriving approx. half an hour late into Sheffield. Once it became apparent the train was more than 15 minutes late we were told it would terminate at Sheffield. Arriving in Sheffield at approx 0735 the next running service to Cleethorpes was the 0911 meaning what would have been a roughly half hour delay became a much longer delay.

I've recently also waited for a TPE train Meadowhall to Cleethorpes, tracking it's journey on the TPE app as it came over the Pennines. Lo and behold, as soon as it was over 15 minutes late while over the Pennines (20 minutes in this case), the announcement was made the service was cancelled, the app showing the service terminating at Sheffield - but then running empty past me at Meadowhall continuing on to Cleethorpes without passengers 'due to a short notice change to the timetable'. In this case I only had a 2 hour wait until the next train so I was lucky.

Two different more senior colleagues have told me TPE will always prefer to cancel a service than have it running over 15 minutes late when possible as the 'penalties are lesser to cancel a train than have one running over 15 minutes late' with the public reason to always just put the 'short notice change'. This whole situation seems ridiculous to me, and only causes me frustration at having long waits for the next train. I've witnessed this happening behind the scenes at my own station in the north west, where services have been cancelled at very short notice rather than have them run 20 minutes late due to an alleged lesser penalty for a cancellation than a delay for the TOC, and the reason put out was a short notice timetable change.

The 06:15 service that day terminated at Sheffield as the Driver was unwell, not because it was late. The unit was promptly put in the sidings. The same train on Tuesday was delayed 35 minutes behind a broken down train, yet continued through to Cleethorpes as booked.

As for the train running in service to Sheffield then empty to Cleethorpes, that is most likely due to there being no Conductor from Sheffield. The train may still need to be taken to Cleethorpes for end of service or to form another service later that does have a full crew.

TPE don't currently pay any fines due to the nature of their contract, so it's more likely they'll run trains despite delays rather than terminating them short as they once would.

Even so, before Covid, the threshold for terminating a train short due to a delay was high. It would have to be 45+ minutes late before they considered it.