Transpennine woes and a moan...

[Watershed]

From the Grauniad

Passengers are rightly angry about our northern railways – as a driver, I’m mortified | Secret Train Driver

TransPennine Express is not being straight with the public about a major cause of its cancellations, says the Secret Train Driver

www.theguardian.com

Whilst that piece is true in many respects, there are a few obvious inaccuracies or omissions.

Sickness may be only a few percent higher than last year - but no doubt last year's level was already much higher than pre-Covid. It's legitimate to ask why this is.

I would be surprised if the loss of goodwill couldn't be primarily attributed to the same thing as every other TOC, namely the lack of a payrise and overall industrial relations climate being poor.

The training backlog may not be new, but it still exists. It should undoubtedly have been taken into account when deciding what level of service to run, but the fact remains that if all drivers were fully competent in terms of route & traction knowledge, there wouldn't be as much disruption.

The comments around training continuing during Covid are rather disingenuous. It was "banned" for a long time and even after that, it was subject to severe limitations which weren't lifted until well after all legal restrictions had gone. Other TOCs such as GA only paused training for a much shorter period. From what I've heard, the lack of training wasn't for want of trying on the part of the company.

The attempt to blame the lack of a RDW agreement on management is also not particularly forthright. The RDW agreement was withdrawn by ASLEF after the company said that Covid 'spare at home' arrangements would cease. This was towards the end of 2021, where there were no legal restrictions whatsover. I leave the reader to draw their own conclusions...

I understand ASLEF also refused to enter into a new agreement unless it was as generous as the old one (something like time & a half, 10 hour minimum - completely unrealistic given the railway's financial circumstances), and unless the company committed to removing the reliance on RDW (more understandable, but something that happens at basically every other TOC out there - so why weren't ASLEF withdrawing RDW elsewhere?). Perhaps "Secret Train Driver" isn't fully in the picture on what their ASLEF reps were up to!

On the point of there being more staff than ever, 74 is a lot of drivers to lose, but that doesn't mean the claim isn't true. It likely isn't true for practical purposes though, as I understand there are still many drivers awaiting or undergoing training.

As for the claim that Liverpool-Newcastle now takes 36 drivers where it previous took 12, again this is taken out of context. What "Secret Train Driver" perhaps means is that there are 36 diagrams which involve Liverpool-Newcastle, as opposed to 12 previously. Either way the figure of 12 is way off - it's an hourly service from early till late with 7 circuits. There's no way you can crew that with 12 diagrams.

Like I say, there are many valid criticisms in there and clearly the service being provided is abysmal at the moment (unbelievably, it's got worse than it has been for the last 6-12 months). But "Secret Train Driver" doesn't help their case by exaggerating or misleading on certain aspects.

 

[Iskra]

Whilst that piece is true in many respects, there are a few obvious inaccuracies or omissions.

Sickness may be only a few percent higher than last year - but no doubt last year's level was already much higher than pre-Covid. It's legitimate to ask why this is.

I would be surprised if the loss of goodwill couldn't be primarily attributed to the same thing as every other TOC, namely the lack of a payrise and overall industrial relations climate being poor.

The training backlog may not be new, but it still exists. It should undoubtedly have been taken into account when deciding what level of service to run, but the fact remains that if all drivers were fully competent in terms of route & traction knowledge, there wouldn't be as much disruption.

The comments around training continuing during Covid are rather disingenuous. It was "banned" for a long time and even after that, it was subject to severe limitations which weren't lifted until well after all legal restrictions had gone. Other TOCs such as GA only paused training for a much shorter period. From what I've heard, the lack of training wasn't for want of trying on the part of the company.

The attempt to blame the lack of a RDW agreement on management is also not particularly forthright. The RDW agreement was withdrawn by ASLEF after the company said that Covid 'spare at home' arrangements would cease. This was towards the end of 2021, where there were no legal restrictions whatsover. I leave the reader to draw their own conclusions...

I understand ASLEF also refused to enter into a new agreement unless it was as generous as the old one (something like double pay, 10 hour minimum - completely unrealistic given the railway's financial circumstances), and unless the company committed to removing the reliance on RDW (more understandable, but something that happens at basically every TOC out there). Perhaps "Secret Train Driver" isn't fully in the picture on what their ASLEF reps were up to!

On the point of there being more staff than ever, 74 is a lot of drivers to lose, but that doesn't mean the claim isn't true. It likely isn't true for practical purposes though, as I understand there are still many drivers awaiting or undergoing training.

As for the claim that Liverpool-Newcastle now takes 36 drivers where it previous took 12, again this is taken out of context. What "Secret Train Driver" perhaps means is that there are 36 diagrams which involve Liverpool-Newcastle, as opposed to 12 previously. Either way the figure of 12 is way off - it's an hourly service from early till late with 7 circuits. There's no way you can crew that with 12 diagrams.

Like I say, there are many valid criticisms in there and clearly the service being provided is abysmal at the moment (unbelievably, it's got worse than it has been for the last 6-12 months). But "Secret Train Driver" doesn't help their case by exaggerating or misleading on certain aspects.

Totally agree.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand ASLEF also refused to enter into a new agreement unless it was as generous as the old one (something like time & a half, 10 hour minimum

It was time x 1.75, 10 hr minimum. half a week’s pay for any Rest Day worked, regardless of duty length.

Do that once a week and you lift your pay by 50%.

 

[VauxhallNova]

But "Secret Train Driver" doesn't help their case by exaggerating or misleading on certain aspects.

Must be so frustrating for management to see misleading information in the press.

The Castlefield Corridor will be running a column soon, explaining its side of the story...

 

[43066]

I understand ASLEF also refused to enter into a new agreement unless it was as generous as the old one (something like time & a half, 10 hour minimum - completely unrealistic given the railway's financial circumstances),

Why is that “completely unrealistic”? They had a legitimate expectation of regaining what went before; otherwise why bother renewing it?

The results of failing to do so are there for all to see; it would have been money well spent in terms of actually operating the timetable. You claim to be all about the passengers, so you should have been pro renewing it, right!?

It was time x 1.75, 10 hr minimum. half a week’s pay for any Rest Day worked, regardless of duty length.

Do that once a week and you lift your pay by 50%.

It’s admittedly pretty generous. Our deal is min 6 hours (ie min turn length) and time and a half, hence there’s an incentive to swap for longer jobs. Works out at £500 for a long one, which isn’t too shabby.

Since we’re onto the dark and dirty subject of money, what’s your daily rate? I reckon add a zero to the above figure?

I’m sure you’re worth it .

 

[gazzaa2]

Whilst that piece is true in many respects, there are a few obvious inaccuracies or omissions.

Sickness may be only a few percent higher than last year - but no doubt last year's level was already much higher than pre-Covid. It's legitimate to ask why this is.

Yeah, sickness levels were already very high last year. If we remember last autumn/winter Omicron went through the population like a dose of salts which forced staff who caught it to isolate, in addition to more viruses circulating after 18 months of lockdowns and restrictions lifted from the summer.

 

[frodshamfella]

View attachment 125635Doesn't look like it was just the 15:30

Great service that ! A Warrington Central service was cancelled soon after the 15.30.

From the Grauniad

Passengers are rightly angry about our northern railways – as a driver, I’m mortified | Secret Train Driver

TransPennine Express is not being straight with the public about a major cause of its cancellations, says the Secret Train Driver

www.theguardian.com

What a depressing account

 

[Watershed]

Must be so frustrating for management to see misleading information in the press.

The Castlefield Corridor will be running a column soon, explaining its side of the story...

Not sure what you're getting at here. The point is that Secret Train Driver has made several valid points but dilutes their argument by exaggerating or elaborating some of them.

Why is that “completely unrealistic”?

As stated - the financial circumstances of the industry have fundamentally changed since the original deal was agreed to. It was more generous than just about any other TOC. If I were a TPE driver I'd be pretty annoyed that they dropped it, given that such a generous deal was unlikely to ever be on the table again.

They had a legitimate expectation of regaining what went before; otherwise why bother renewing it?

Because something is better than nothing! Drivers who previously did overtime have really lost out.

The results of failing to do so are there for all to see; it would have been money well spent in terms of actually operating the timetable. You claim to be all about the passengers, so you should have been pro renewing it, right!?

I'm all for a RDW deal being agreed - that is clearly in the best interests of the travelling public. Equally, I agree that it's wrong for TOCs to rely on overtime as a routine measure (not least because of the implications for fatigue etc.) and thus agree with not wanting to condone this strategy in the long term.

But I do find it strange that ASLEF only took a stand on this issue at TPE, and not the many other TOCs where exactly the same thing is happening. And I'm commenting that it's not particularly accurate to present the loss of RDW as something that was entirely of the company's making.

 

[td97]

Quite an interesting service today was a TPE from Bolton to Manchester Airport. Obviously Bolton is set down only for Up TPE services, so presumably this was empty until the first stop at Oxford Road (and then Piccadilly), effectively acting as a direct shuttle to the Airport from city centre.
The most unusual aspect is how this even occurred, as the service ran ECS from Preston to Bolton, and then in service from Bolton onwards. But as far as I'm aware, TPE don't have crew changes at Bolton.

Realtime Trains | 1M91 1907 Bolton to Manchester Airport | 23/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 1M91 1907 departure from Bolton to Manchester Airport on 23/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The most unusual aspect is how this even occurred, as the service ran ECS from Preston to Bolton, and then in service from Bolton onwards. But as far as I'm aware, TPE don't have crew changes at Bolton.

Perhaps although they had a set and a driver at Preston they were unable to provide a Conductor from Preston but could get one out from Manchester (Picc or Airport) to start the train at Bolton (in spite of being set down only)? I see the back working 20.04 from the Airport to Edinburgh ran - still en route as I wirite.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

(in spite of being set down only)?

Would it be reasonable to say people who'd had their previous two Northern trains cancelled might've gotten on it (like seen it say Manchester Airport on the Side or people with RTT)?

 

[CAF397]

Perhaps although they had a set and a driver at Preston they were unable to provide a Conductor from Preston but could get one out from Manchester (Picc or Airport) to start the train at Bolton (in spite of being set down only)? I see the back working 20.04 from the Airport to Edinburgh ran - still en route as I wirite.

If the train was stabled in the Sidings or old parcels platform, there might not have been time to shunt into a platform at Preston, therefore running ECS from Preston to the next TPE served station (Bolton) would've got a passenger service running.

TPE do it on the South Route by terminating at Meadowhall so the units can run straight into the station Sidings.

 

[Evolution]

It was time x 1.75, 10 hr minimum. half a week’s pay for any Rest Day worked, regardless of duty length.

Do that once a week and you lift your pay by 50%.

And the rest AFAIR it worked out at either £630 or £660 per day, regardless of turn length, as mentioned.

It was by far the best RDW agreement of any TOC in the country. Some of the big hitters were comfortably doing over six figures.

Why is that “completely unrealistic”? They had a legitimate expectation of regaining what went before; otherwise why bother renewing it?

The results of failing to do so are there for all to see; it would have been money well spent in terms of actually operating the timetable. You claim to be all about the passengers, so you should have been pro renewing it, right!?




It’s admittedly pretty generous. Our deal is min 6 hours (ie min turn length) and time and a half, hence there’s an incentive to swap for longer jobs. Works out at £500 for a long one, which isn’t too shabby.

Since we’re onto the dark and dirty subject of money, what’s your daily rate? I reckon add a zero to the above figure?

I’m sure you’re worth it .

That's not too shabby at all, are you one of the lucky ones who still has a RDW agreement? I know there's not many now, sadly.

Whilst that piece is true in many respects, there are a few obvious inaccuracies or omissions.

Sickness may be only a few percent higher than last year - but no doubt last year's level was already much higher than pre-Covid. It's legitimate to ask why this is.

I would be surprised if the loss of goodwill couldn't be primarily attributed to the same thing as every other TOC, namely the lack of a payrise and overall industrial relations climate being poor.

The training backlog may not be new, but it still exists. It should undoubtedly have been taken into account when deciding what level of service to run, but the fact remains that if all drivers were fully competent in terms of route & traction knowledge, there wouldn't be as much disruption.

The comments around training continuing during Covid are rather disingenuous. It was "banned" for a long time and even after that, it was subject to severe limitations which weren't lifted until well after all legal restrictions had gone. Other TOCs such as GA only paused training for a much shorter period. From what I've heard, the lack of training wasn't for want of trying on the part of the company.

The attempt to blame the lack of a RDW agreement on management is also not particularly forthright. The RDW agreement was withdrawn by ASLEF after the company said that Covid 'spare at home' arrangements would cease. This was towards the end of 2021, where there were no legal restrictions whatsover. I leave the reader to draw their own conclusions...

I understand ASLEF also refused to enter into a new agreement unless it was as generous as the old one (something like time & a half, 10 hour minimum - completely unrealistic given the railway's financial circumstances), and unless the company committed to removing the reliance on RDW (more understandable, but something that happens at basically every other TOC out there - so why weren't ASLEF withdrawing RDW elsewhere?). Perhaps "Secret Train Driver" isn't fully in the picture on what their ASLEF reps were up to!

On the point of there being more staff than ever, 74 is a lot of drivers to lose, but that doesn't mean the claim isn't true. It likely isn't true for practical purposes though, as I understand there are still many drivers awaiting or undergoing training.

As for the claim that Liverpool-Newcastle now takes 36 drivers where it previous took 12, again this is taken out of context. What "Secret Train Driver" perhaps means is that there are 36 diagrams which involve Liverpool-Newcastle, as opposed to 12 previously. Either way the figure of 12 is way off - it's an hourly service from early till late with 7 circuits. There's no way you can crew that with 12 diagrams.

Like I say, there are many valid criticisms in there and clearly the service being provided is abysmal at the moment (unbelievably, it's got worse than it has been for the last 6-12 months). But "Secret Train Driver" doesn't help their case by exaggerating or misleading on certain aspects.

Personally, I don't think that's from a driver at all- lots of inaccuracies and information freely available elsewhere. More than likely some "creative journalism" in an attempt to create yet, more division between the travelling public and rail staff.

If I were a TPE driver I'd be pretty annoyed that they dropped it, given that such a generous deal was unlikely to ever be on the table again.

I think that’s the main reason they have lost so many drivers this year, a good proportion left to go to freight and some to other intercity TOCs AIUI.

 

[DoubleO]

Not quite. It was about £550 a shift, for anything. Drivers sometimes got that for going in to do a shunt or take a unit off a depot.

 

[nedchester]

Not quite. It was about £550 a shift, for anything. Drivers sometimes got that for going in to do a shunt or take a unit off a depot.

Which is outrageous and unsustainable.

You can blame the management as much as the unions for agreeing to that in the first place.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Hardly the union's fault for taking the deal.

 

[RHolmes]

Perhaps although they had a set and a driver at Preston they were unable to provide a Conductor from Preston but could get one out from Manchester (Picc or Airport) to start the train at Bolton (in spite of being set down only)? I see the back working 20.04 from the Airport to Edinburgh ran - still en route as I wirite.

Airport doesn’t sign 802’s, and Picc doesn’t sign 802’s or Preston.

It would have been a Preston Conductor

 

[43066]

As stated - the financial circumstances of the industry have fundamentally changed since the original deal was agreed to. It was more generous than just about any other TOC. If I were a TPE driver I'd be pretty annoyed that they dropped it, given that such a generous deal was unlikely to ever be on the table again.

If I was a TPE driver I’d want the same deal reinstated. The “financial circumstances of the industry” certainly haven’t changed as far as reliance on overtime is concerned.

I’m glad I’m not a TPE driver so I have the luxury of debating this while still doing overtime if I want it, but I can see exactly where ASLEF are coming from here.

That's not too shabby at all, are you one of the lucky ones who still has a RDW agreement? I know there's not many now, sadly.

Most TOCs still have RDW agreements in place AIUI.

Which is outrageous and unsustainable.

You can blame the management as much as the unions for agreeing to that in the first place.

Why does it bother you?

If they need a shunt doing badly enough it’s still cheaper than cancelling a train. What is “outrageous and unsustainable” about that?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Whilst that piece is true in many respects, there are a few obvious inaccuracies or omissions.

Sickness may be only a few percent higher than last year - but no doubt last year's level was already much higher than pre-Covid. It's legitimate to ask why this is.

I would be surprised if the loss of goodwill couldn't be primarily attributed to the same thing as every other TOC, namely the lack of a payrise and overall industrial relations climate being poor.

The training backlog may not be new, but it still exists. It should undoubtedly have been taken into account when deciding what level of service to run, but the fact remains that if all drivers were fully competent in terms of route & traction knowledge, there wouldn't be as much disruption.

The comments around training continuing during Covid are rather disingenuous. It was "banned" for a long time and even after that, it was subject to severe limitations which weren't lifted until well after all legal restrictions had gone. Other TOCs such as GA only paused training for a much shorter period. From what I've heard, the lack of training wasn't for want of trying on the part of the company.

The attempt to blame the lack of a RDW agreement on management is also not particularly forthright. The RDW agreement was withdrawn by ASLEF after the company said that Covid 'spare at home' arrangements would cease. This was towards the end of 2021, where there were no legal restrictions whatsover. I leave the reader to draw their own conclusions...

I understand ASLEF also refused to enter into a new agreement unless it was as generous as the old one (something like time & a half, 10 hour minimum - completely unrealistic given the railway's financial circumstances), and unless the company committed to removing the reliance on RDW (more understandable, but something that happens at basically every other TOC out there - so why weren't ASLEF withdrawing RDW elsewhere?). Perhaps "Secret Train Driver" isn't fully in the picture on what their ASLEF reps were up to!

On the point of there being more staff than ever, 74 is a lot of drivers to lose, but that doesn't mean the claim isn't true. It likely isn't true for practical purposes though, as I understand there are still many drivers awaiting or undergoing training.

As for the claim that Liverpool-Newcastle now takes 36 drivers where it previous took 12, again this is taken out of context. What "Secret Train Driver" perhaps means is that there are 36 diagrams which involve Liverpool-Newcastle, as opposed to 12 previously. Either way the figure of 12 is way off - it's an hourly service from early till late with 7 circuits. There's no way you can crew that with 12 diagrams.

Like I say, there are many valid criticisms in there and clearly the service being provided is abysmal at the moment (unbelievably, it's got worse than it has been for the last 6-12 months). But "Secret Train Driver" doesn't help their case by exaggerating or misleading on certain aspects.

Well they've put the fiasco that is TPE in the national press and help shine a light on what has to be the worst train operator in the UK with seemingly the DfT taking little interest in what First Group are doing to sort it out despite FTPE being in receipt of the 2nd biggest subsidy/passenger carried. This is nothing new since 2019 TPE have been using driver training as an excuse for a less than robust service and the DfT allowed them to cancel or short run many service groups this year to get it recovered yet its still falling significantly short. GTR were rightly lambasted for the May 2018 fiasco but by Sept 18 they had got it sorted out.

TfN and MPs across all their routes should be demanding of DfT to get TPE explain what they are doing to deliver the timetable they are receiving subsidy for and holding them to account weekly on delivery of that plan.

 

[DoubleO]

Which is outrageous and unsustainable.

You can blame the management as much as the unions for agreeing to that in the first place.

I don't think you can blame the unions, but it was certainly short sighted of the company to offer such a crazy deal as they were always going to run into problems if/when it needed to change. The only thing I'd say in relation to ASLEF is they're crackers if they think they'll get a deal that good again, yet I suspect they'll refuse any decent alternatives put to them. Indeed they've already kicked one back although I don't know the full details.

 

[Bald Rick]

Since we’re onto the dark and dirty subject of money, what’s your daily rate? I reckon add a zero to the above figure?

well For about half the time I work for free…

If I were a TPE driver I'd be pretty annoyed that they dropped it, given that such a generous deal was unlikely to ever be on the table again.

the TPE drivers I know are rather annoyed, yes. One of them (a good friend) has lost out to the tune of £25k this year, and he didn’t exactly cane the rest days. That’s a big, big hole in your wallet, especially when you have been used to it for a while. I did suggest he goes and talks to his reps about it, but apparently he can’t, as he’d be marked out as a trouble maker for suggesting something against the unions wishes.

 

[Evolution]

Not quite. It was about £550 a shift, for anything. Drivers sometimes got that for going in to do a shunt or take a unit off a depot.

Them figures were from a DI, unless that’s their rate.

 

[Efini92]

well For about half the time I work for free…




the TPE drivers I know are rather annoyed, yes. One of them (a good friend) has lost out to the tune of £25k this year, and he didn’t exactly cane the rest days. That’s a big, big hole in your wallet, especially when you have been used to it for a while. I did suggest he goes and talks to his reps about it, but apparently he can’t, as he’d be marked out as a trouble maker for suggesting something against the unions wishes.

It was by far the best agreement on the network. I doubt we’ll ever see deals like that again.

 

[Evolution]

Most TOCs still have RDW agreements in place AIUI.

Plenty that don’t; LNER, Avanti, TPE, XC and Northern just off the top of my head that currently don’t have an agreement in place.

Which is outrageous and unsustainable.

You can blame the management as much as the unions for agreeing to that in the first place.

What’s outrageous about it?

 

[Efini92]

Plenty that don’t; LNER, Avanti, TPE, XC and Northern just off the top of my head that currently don’t have an agreement in place.

Avanti have a RDW agreement

 

[Evolution]

Avanti have a RDW agreement

I thought ASLEF pulled it? Or were drivers just working to rule?

 

[Efini92]

I thought ASLEF pulled it? Or were drivers just working to rule?

No it was renewed in November.
No work to rule, drivers just want their days off.

 

[Evolution]

No it was renewed in November.
No work to rule, drivers just want their days off.

Ah right, fair enough.

 

[nedchester]

I don't think you can blame the unions, but it was certainly short sighted of the company to offer such a crazy deal as they were always going to run into problems if/when it needed to change. The only thing I'd say in relation to ASLEF is they're crackers if they think they'll get a deal that good again, yet I suspect they'll refuse any decent alternatives put to them. Indeed they've already kicked one back although I don't know the full details.

I blame the management for making such a stupid offer in the first place and the unions for thinking that it could be offered again when the industry was in the financial brown stuff.

 

[Efini92]

I blame the management for making such a stupid offer in the first place and the unions for thinking that it could be offered again when the industry was in the financial brown stuff.

It was the other way round. The company were desperate for a rest day agreement to train their new fleet of trains.