Travel Irregularity: Grantham to Newark Northgate

[Astarael]

To the OP.

I have been a student and faced the choice of eating or paying for travel (and rent) so you have my sympathies too. Are you able to obtain any financial support from your parents? If you are lucky enough to get off with a fine, have you considered how you would resource the funds to pay this? Can you get a part time or weekend job?

Are there any "luxuries" you can forgo for a time - e.g. cigarettes/vape/alcohol? When I was a student, it was a choice between eating or smoking/drinking once my rent was paid. Mobile phones didn't exist back then so I didn't have that worry like students do now

My parents already help me out with my rent and I have cut out alcohol, don't smoke and shop in also just to make my pennies go further.

 

[Astarael]

Its worth pointing out that you were not forced into getting on the train and going to college - that was your decision and your decision only. Not getting your weekly funding through from your college doesn't excuse you from getting on the train without a ticket. You can always miss college and complain to them bitterly about this.

Its worth noting that today is Thursday and surely they dont give you your funding for your travel towards the end of the working week and if they dont and it comes through on a Friday ready for Monday or indeed a Monday then how have you been getting there the other 3 days this week?

Now, as this is your second time im sure they would look more towards a prosecution for you so how old are you?

When the letter arrives come back and tell us what it says and we can give you better advice then

I did not know it was an offence to board without a ticket. I have paid on the train for tickets before this incident. My funding is supposed to come through at the start of the week and it still hasn't. If I miss college I can have my funding revoked and/or be removed from my course. I am over 18.

When I said forced I meant getting on without buying a ticket prior, this has happened several times before and I bought a ticket on the train. I'm not deliberately hiding from inspectors, I know that it's a short journey and they may not get to me. However they did today and concluded I'm deliberately dodging fare.

Yes I got on hoping that I wouldn't be asked for a ticket this time. Yes that is because I have little money. No I don't do this every week.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I can't think of a way that the franchise agreement entitles a train company to add "something on top" or to claim it is an "administrative penalty" and, through FOI, we can see that the DfT reminded Northern of this when it considered Northern's "penalty that isn't really a penalty" scheme. (There really ought to be no element of penalty or profit or levy in an enforceable out-of-court settlement for a criminal matter. An enforceable settlement merely puts the company back into the position in which it would have been had the specific alleged offence not been committed.)

Whilst I agree with the fact that it may not be correct for a company to ask for a settlement that puts them in a better position than had the offence not been committed, if the company are considering prosecution (which appears unlikely to me given they have not taken details today and sold a ticket instead), it might still be the least worst option to take that settlement.

 

[Astarael]

Whilst I agree with the fact that it may not be correct for a company to ask for a settlement that puts them in a better position than had the offence not been committed, if the company are considering prosecution (which appears unlikely to me given they have not taken details today and sold a ticket instead), it might still be the least worst option to take that settlement.

The took my details and didn't sell me a ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The took my details and didn't sell me a ticket.

Ah, I must have misunderstood then. In that case, it may indeed be worthwhile accepting any settlement they offer.

 

[Astarael]

Ah, I must have misunderstood then. In that case, it may indeed be worthwhile accepting any settlement they offer.

Thanks

 

[furlong]

Whilst I agree with the fact that it may not be correct for a company to ask for a settlement that puts them in a better position than had the offence not been committed, if the company are considering prosecution (which appears unlikely to me given they have not taken details today and sold a ticket instead), it might still be the least worst option to take that settlement.

"That settlement" won't be offered - please try not to confuse people - stick to the standard formula that works for both sides and with which courts and the regulators seem to be content. There can be room for debate when setting the right level of costs, but they are still costs - not an "administrative penalty" (or the train company itself could face proceedings).

 

[35B]

An observation, not directly related to the action that LNER may take, but I think still relevant. You should speak to your college about the situation you are in, that the late payment of your travel allowance put you in the position of having to make a choice between food and fare, and ask for their help. This should be in three parts:

1. Pay the travel allowance on time
2. If LNER follow up, to write to LNER explaining what happened with the payment of the travel allowance (bearing in mind that this may increase your risk of prosecution under RORA).
3. If LNER accept an offer of an out of court settlement, see whether they will offer to contribute to anything you have to pay by way of settlement

All of the above presumes that the college have committed to pay travel allowances before you are due to pay for travel, rather than agreeing to reimburse you for that travel. The difference is important, in that if they have only offered to reimburse you, they are unlikely to be willing to accept responsibility for your situation, however dependent you actually are on those payments.

 

[Haywain]

An enforceable settlement merely puts the company back into the position in which it would have been had the specific alleged offence not been committed.

An enforceable settlement is court action. An out of court settlement, however it is dressed up, is not enforceable but is an alternative (and usually cheaper) option than the enforceable option of going to court. In the event that someone declines to pay the settlement they will end up in court on the relevant charge that they would, through a settlement, pay to avoid.

 

[furlong]

An out of court settlement, however it is dressed up, is not enforceable

Perhaps we are using 'enforceable' to mean different things? Are you correctly saying the train company cannot force a passenger to accept such an agreement, whereas I am talking about the content of the agreement, after it has been entered into, being enforced by the courts? If it was not enforceable, the train company could take the money, keep it (or even pay it back), and then still prosecute! If it was not enforceable, the passenger could accept it and pay up, wait 6 months so they could not be prosecuted, then sue for the return of their money!

For reference, consider the case of the investment banker in 2014 who settled out-of-court for £43,000, and then despite independent investigations, was not then prosecuted.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps we are using 'enforceable' to mean different things? Are you correctly saying the train company cannot force a passenger to accept such an agreement, whereas I am talking about the content of the agreement, after it has been entered into, being enforced by the courts? If it was not enforceable, the train company could take the money, keep it (or even pay it back), and then still prosecute! If it was not enforceable, the passenger could accept it and pay up, wait 6 months so they could not be prosecuted, then sue for the return of their money!

For reference, consider the case of the investment banker in 2014 who settled out-of-court for £43,000, and then despite independent investigations, was not then prosecuted.

To be clear, an out of court settlement is effectively a gentlemen's agreement that does not prevent the train company from bringing a prosecution but not doing so on payment of the settlement is a matter of honour. Similarly, the passenger could accept and pay up, but taking legal action to recover the sum paid would, I believe, be viewed dimly by the courts - as would the train company bringing a prosecution.

 

[gray1404]

My advise for now is to try to put this to the back of your mind. Focus on your studies and achieving good grades. You are not going to go to prison for this at the end of the day.

There is nothing further you can do at this point. When the letter does arrive, hopefully from the train company asking for your side of the story, you can come back here and tell us what the letter says. Importantly, it should tell you which legislation they are looking at using a charge against you. If you need to reply to this letter then we can help you draft a reply on here before sending it.

You may not hear back this side of Christmas, you might. It could take up to 6 months or in reality it could be a lot sooner depending on their workload. It is important that you keep an eye on the mail at the address you gave to the Inspector as any letter you receive will have a deadline (often short) to reply. Please ensure that you always travel with a ticket in future. If you do not have a ticket then do not travel.

So much as I am saying put this to the back of your mind, and it has been explained here that a train company does not have to offer an out of court settlement, if they were to offer you the chance to settle out of out then you would usually need to pay this in full and very promptly indeed. Therefore, what concerns me if that you might receive such an offer but then not have the funds to be able to pay it and that would be a real shame. It also doesn't help that we do not know exactly how much they would be asking for, if they even do. If you could possibly get saving (which I know is hard) or look at getting a temp job in the run up to Christmas it might help you in having some cash set aside if needed further down the line. Of course, if you are going to get a job you would need to check it was allowed while studying and it wouldn't effect any grants you receive from college etc... Hard to say as only you know your situation.

 

[furlong]

To be clear, an out of court settlement is effectively a gentlemen's agreement that does not prevent the train company from bringing a prosecution but not doing so on payment of the settlement is a matter of honour.

We'll have to disagree then - as long as it is drawn up within correct parameters, I think courts would enforce it. Even the police were unable to prosecute the investment banker because of such an agreement.

 

[najaB]

When I said forced I meant getting on without buying a ticket prior, this has happened several times before and I bought a ticket on the train. I'm not deliberately hiding from inspectors, I know that it's a short journey and they may not get to me. However they did today and concluded I'm deliberately dodging fare.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I'm surprised that you've been sold a ticket on board several times travelling between Grantham and Newark Northgate as they're both barriered stations with both ticket machines and a ticket office open for most of the day. I'm not surprised they concluded you were trying to avoid paying the fare because, by your own admission, it appears that you are.

 

[35B]

I'm not calling you a liar, but I'm surprised that you've been sold a ticket on board several times travelling between Grantham and Newark Northgate as they're both barriered stations with both ticket machines and a ticket office open for most of the day. I'm not surprised they concluded you were trying to avoid paying the fare because, by your own admission, it appears that you are.

Correction from a Grantham commuter, Grantham is no longer barriered, and I think the barriers have been removed at Newark too. Your comments on the ticket office and machines are entirely accurate, however.

 

[najaB]

Correction from a Grantham commuter, Grantham is no longer barriered, and I think the barriers have been removed at Newark too. Your comments on the ticket office and machines are entirely accurate, however.

Okay, thanks. It's been over a year since I was at either.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Okay, thanks. It's been over a year since I was at either.

It had always struck me as a little odd that they tried to squeeze in barriers at Grantham without rebuilding the main building; the station entrance area isn't very big and the last time I was there, the queuing area for the ticket office blocked a large part of that too!

 

[Mag_seven]

Correction from a Grantham commuter, Grantham is no longer barriered, and I think the barriers have been removed at Newark too. Your comments on the ticket office and machines are entirely accurate, however.

AFAICR the barriers at Grantham were removed some time ago now.

 

[yorkie]

... Grantham and Newark Northgate as they're both barriered stations....

I can confirm neither stations have barriers.

AFAICR the barriers at Grantham were removed some time ago now.

That's right. Summer 2017

 

[Astarael]

I'm not calling you a liar, but I'm surprised that you've been sold a ticket on board several times travelling between Grantham and Newark Northgate as they're both barriered stations with both ticket machines and a ticket office open for most of the day. I'm not surprised they concluded you were trying to avoid paying the fare because, by your own admission, it appears that you are.

Neither station has barriers. I've been sold tickets multiple times on the train.

 

[Astarael]

My advise for now is to try to put this to the back of your mind. Focus on your studies and achieving good grades. You are not going to go to prison for this at the end of the day.

There is nothing further you can do at this point. When the letter does arrive, hopefully from the train company asking for your side of the story, you can come back here and tell us what the letter says. Importantly, it should tell you which legislation they are looking at using a charge against you. If you need to reply to this letter then we can help you draft a reply on here before sending it.

You may not hear back this side of Christmas, you might. It could take up to 6 months or in reality it could be a lot sooner depending on their workload. It is important that you keep an eye on the mail at the address you gave to the Inspector as any letter you receive will have a deadline (often short) to reply. Please ensure that you always travel with a ticket in future. If you do not have a ticket then do not travel.

So much as I am saying put this to the back of your mind, and it has been explained here that a train company does not have to offer an out of court settlement, if they were to offer you the chance to settle out of out then you would usually need to pay this in full and very promptly indeed. Therefore, what concerns me if that you might receive such an offer but then not have the funds to be able to pay it and that would be a real shame. It also doesn't help that we do not know exactly how much they would be asking for, if they even do. If you could possibly get saving (which I know is hard) or look at getting a temp job in the run up to Christmas it might help you in having some cash set aside if needed further down the line. Of course, if you are going to get a job you would need to check it was allowed while studying and it wouldn't effect any grants you receive from college etc... Hard to say as only you know your situation.

I do have a job. I just want to get this out of the way and sorted. I had no idea that it was an offence to board a train without a ticket. I've been sold multiple tickets on the train especially on that route without a mention of this. As FTLO mentioned I'm going to try to get a season ticket so as to avoid this in the future.

 

[najaB]

I've been sold multiple tickets on the train especially on that route without a mention of this.

In that case I'm somewhat disappointed with the staff members who never told you this.

 

[robbeech]

In that case I'm somewhat disappointed with the staff members who never told you this.

This is an ongoing problem within the industry. It should make a decision one way or another. Either happily sell tickets on board or strictly enforce penalty fares and / or prosecution where it is not a passenger’s first opportunity to board. Of course we won’t be seeing this any time soon as that would be far too easy.

 

[Llanigraham]

I can't comment on what happens over that side of the country, but over here there are posters at the entrance to the station, it is written on the Ticket Machine, and there are announcements that tickets MUST be bought before you get on the train. I have also heard the guards mention it when they have sold tickets.

 

[35B]

I do have a job. I just want to get this out of the way and sorted. I had no idea that it was an offence to board a train without a ticket. I've been sold multiple tickets on the train especially on that route without a mention of this. As FTLO mentioned I'm going to try to get a season ticket so as to avoid this in the future.

Multiple times rings alarm bells to me. There is a ticket office with two windows, plus three ticket machines in the booking hall. Newark is similar. There is no reason most of the time why someone boarding at either Grantham or Newark should have been unable to purchase if starting their journey there.

LNER guards are, in my experience, usually and rightly willing to sell tickets when they come through - but always at full whack, not discounted. I can’t help but wonder if a pattern of behaviour has been observed which has driven this.

 

[eastdyke]

Multiple times rings alarm bells to me. There is a ticket office with two windows, plus three ticket machines in the booking hall. Newark is similar. There is no reason most of the time why someone boarding at either Grantham or Newark should have been unable to purchase if starting their journey there.

LNER guards are, in my experience, usually and rightly willing to sell tickets when they come through - but always at full whack, not discounted. I can’t help but wonder if a pattern of behaviour has been observed which has driven this.

Indeed. But last time I was in Grantham around 08.45 Tues 13/11 the machines were out of service and window staff were dealing with advance purchases and other issues, progress was slow. I was in no hurry so able to wait.
EMT seem happy to sell tickets on-train for their routes, never see staff on LNER between Grantham and Newark (it's only around 10 mins).
The only walk-up (single or day return) fares for the journey would be 'anytime'.
The removal of the barriers at these stations has presented an opportunity for those inclined to risk it. Expect to see more RPI's at these places.

 

[snail]

I'm going to try to get a season ticket so as to avoid this in the future.

If you are only going to use it for college journeys you may be better off getting a monthly ticket plus a few days each time to tie in with your studies and holidays. For Monday-Friday commuting you can start it on a Monday and end it on the Friday 5 weeks later or add on days to take you up to the next holiday. A bit more up front but will save you money compared to simple weekly or monthly tickets.

 

[Shell]

Astarael - if you ever wind up in a situation where you can't make it to college or you don't have enough money to eat again, your college has a discretionary fund which they can give out to students who are struggling with money and might not otherwise be able to access college. It'd be worth talking to the student finance office about it.

 

[island]

I can't think of a way that the franchise agreement entitles a train company to add "something on top" or to claim it is an "administrative penalty" and, through FOI, we can see that the DfT reminded Northern of this when it considered Northern's "penalty that isn't really a penalty" scheme. (There really ought to be no element of penalty or profit or levy in an enforceable out-of-court settlement for a criminal matter. An enforceable settlement merely puts the company back into the position in which it would have been had the specific alleged offence not been committed.)

This may be your opinion but that is all.

A train company can ask for whatever sum it wishes to not prosecute a criminal offence. The alleged offender’s remedy if he/she feels the sum is too high is to decline to pay. The matter may then progress through to court action, or may not. A settlement arrangement is an extra option that the alleged offender may take up.

The franchise agreement is between the DfT and the TOC, and passengers aren’t entitled to enforce it as against the TOC.

 

[furlong]

A train company can ask for whatever sum it wishes to not prosecute a criminal offence. The alleged offender’s remedy if he/she feels the sum is too high is to decline to pay. The matter may then progress through to court action, or may not. A settlement arrangement is an extra option that the alleged offender may take up. The franchise agreement is between the DfT and the TOC, and passengers aren’t entitled to enforce it as against the TOC.

The franchise agreement underpins the whole process - without it, the TOC would not be entitled to its fare (and there could be no crime).

Here's a case involving an extreme example of this type of proposed settlement:

10. He valued the price for abandoning the criminal prosecution at £30,000.00...
11. ... In the second paragraph they observed that the request for £30,000.00 (Thirty Thousand Pounds) in return for agreement not to commence a private prosecution was tantamount to blackmail. It might not be blackmail, but it certainly would have rendered the agreement unenforceable on public policy grounds. ...