Travelcard Questions?

[Babybirdrobin]

Good evening people,

I'd like to know how you can (and if) buy a zone 9 travelcard online, I'm thinking of making the trip into London to go spotting but would like to get the ticket in advance as it gets annoying going to a zone 9 station to get a travelcard, would be nice if I could not have to go back a train as going to Brentwood is a hassle.

Also, what is a 'boundry zone' travelcard, I have seen them mentioned a lot but don't know what they are or how they can help you?

Thanks!

 

[Edvid]

You can buy a Zone 1-9 Day Travelcard online, though the origin has to be in Zone 9 (Brentwood would suffice).

A Boundary Zone ticket is a single/return ticket that is used in combination with, and is only valid with a Travelcard. It's useful for trips from London to places outside the zones.

Assuming you're starting from outside the zones, an example would be an Off Peak Day Return (Witham - Boundary Zone 6) and an Off Peak Day Travelcard for Z1-9.

Your profile says Essex and you mentioned Brentwood, so I used Witham as an example. To be sure, where are you starting from?

 

[Watershed]

You can buy a Travelcard covering Zones 1-9 online and collect it at the ticket machine at any of the stations listed here. You'll need to enter an origin station that's within Zones 7-9, such as Amersham or Brentwood. The Travelcard is then sold with a destination of London Zones 1-6, but the routing is 'AAA Zones 7-9', which means it's additionally valid in Zones 7-9.

'Boundary Zone' refers to when you want to make a journey that goes beyond the validity of your Travelcard. You can buy a ticket to/from the relevant Boundary Zone, and then you will just pay the fare for the part of your journey that the Travelcard doesn't cover. Your train doesn't need to stop at any particular station for this combination to be valid - this is an exception to the normal rule when 'split ticketing', since one of your tickets is zonal. So with a Zones 1-6 or 1-9 Travelcard and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to Witham, you could take a train that runs non-stop from Stratford to Shenfield or beyond.

Unfortunately you can't buy tickets from Boundary Zones 7, 8 or 9 - the highest Boundary Zone location is Boundary Zone 6. Therefore it may be cheaper to buy a Zones 1-6 Travelcard and Boundary Zone 6 ticket, depending on what exactly you're planning on doing. If you can provide us with more details we will be able to advise on the most appropriate combination of tickets.

Most retailers don't sell Boundary Zone tickets online but a handful do - to my knowledge this is currently limited to Avanti West Coast and TrainSplit (if you specify that you already have a Travelcard in the 'Advanced options' menu). Otherwise you can buy them at any ticket office or certain ticket machines (it depends on the configuration - you'll need to specify a different origin station, namely the relevant Boundary Zone).

 

[Edvid]

Most retailers don't sell Boundary Zone tickets online but a handful do - to my knowledge this is currently limited to Avanti West Coast and TrainSplit

c2c sell them online as well, as I once learned after buying an Upminster-origin ticket from them last summer.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

You can buy a Zone 1-9 Day Travelcard online, though the origin has to be in Zone 9 (Brentwood would suffice).

A Boundary Zone ticket is a single/return ticket that is used in combination with, and is only valid with a Travelcard. It's useful for trips from London to places outside the zones.

Ok, That's helpful, thanks

'Boundary Zone' refers to when you want to make a journey that goes beyond the validity of your Travelcard. You can buy a ticket to/from the relevant Boundary Zone, and then you will just pay the fare for the part of your journey that the Travelcard doesn't cover. Your train doesn't need to stop at any particular station for this combination to be valid - this is an exception to the normal rule when 'split ticketing', since one of your tickets is zonal. So with a Zones 1-6 or 1-9 Travelcard and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to Witham, you could take a train that runs non-stop from Stratford to Shenfield or beyond.

Ok, thanks, that clears that up.

Unfortunately you can't buy tickets from Boundary Zones 7, 8 or 9 - the highest Boundary Zone location is Boundary Zone 6. Therefore it may be cheaper to buy a Zones 1-6 Travelcard and Boundary Zone 6 ticket, depending on what exactly you're planning on doing. If you can provide us with more details we will be able to advise on the most appropriate combination of tickets.

That's a shame but I would probably try to get a Zone 9 one so thanks for stopping me before I try.


Also, another question for you all:

If I use Wickford - Brentwood (return)
then Brentwood - Zone 9 (travelcard)

Then would I have to stop at Brentwood when going back to Wickford or would I be home free on a GA service that doesn't stop?
I obviously stop on the way up to get the Travelcard.
If I have to stop then I've be accidentally fare evading for the last year

Unrelated but anyone know what this is?

 

[yorkie]

If I use Wickford - Brentwood (return)
then Brentwood - Zone 9 (travelcard)

Technically the second ticket is Brentwood to London Zones 1-6 (the code for this is 0035), which is also available at (AAA) Zones 7-9

Then would I have to stop at Brentwood when going back to Wickford or would I be home free on a GA service that doesn't stop?

Yes technically you have to call at Brentwood.

(Unless the ticket is valid at Shenfield, in which case you just have to call at Shenfield; but is it valid via Shenfield? Technically not, as the route isn't "Any Permitted"; the route is "AAA Zones 7-9")

Unrelated but anyone know what View attachment 151675this is?

This would be a single or return ticket to a London Underground station in Zone 1.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Technically the second ticket is Brentwood to London Zones 1-6 (the code for this is 0035), which is also available at (AAA) Zones 7-9

Yes technically you have to call at Brentwood, unless the ticket is valid at Shenfield, in which case you just have to call at Shenfield.

So, is it valid via Shenfield? Technically not, as the route isn't "Any Permitted"; the route is "AAA Zones 7-9"

This would be a single or return ticket to a London Underground station in Zone 1.

Ok, thank you, I understand this better now, Thanks!

Also,
Can we get tickets that we can non-stop brentwood and still be 7-9 included?

Sorry for the amount of questions, I just want to understand this better than I do because I don't want to accidentally fare evade

 

[yorkie]

Ok, thank you, I understand this better now, Thanks!

Also,
Can we get tickets that we can non-stop brentwood and still be 7-9 included?

Yes; get a Travelcard from Shenfield:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

​ Standard​ TRAVELCARD​	​ OFF-PEAK DAY TRVLCRD [C4] ODT​
Fares Period​	3 Dec 23—4 Feb 24​
From​	SHENFIELD​	​	​
To​	LONDON ZONES 1-6​	​	​
Route​	AAA LDN ZONE 7-9​

PRICE
Fare set by:​	LER GREATER ANGLIA​
Passengers per ticket:​	1 adult OR 1 child​
Discount Status​	Status Code (shown on ticket)​	Price​
ADULT​	​	£23.70​
CHILD​	CHILD​	£11.85​

VALIDITY
Outward Validity:​	ON DATE SHOWN (1 day)​
Return Validity:​	ON DATE SHOWN (1 day)​
Includes unlimited travel in London Zones 1–6​

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Yes; get a Travelcard from Shenfield:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Thanks, That's helpful, any idea of where we could get that from, online, at a station? If so where?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks, That's helpful, any idea of where we could get that from, online, at a station? If so where?

The forum's site will sell it:

Shenfield > London Travelcard Zones 1-6 - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare Fares and Get the Best Value For Money Through Split Tickets and Booking Cheap Train Tickets Online And On Our Mobile App, Etickets To Your Phone, No Booking Fee, Save Up To 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

All other retailers should sell them too.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

The forum's site will sell it:

Shenfield > London Travelcard Zones 1-6 - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare Fares and Get the Best Value For Money Through Split Tickets and Booking Cheap Train Tickets Online And On Our Mobile App, Etickets To Your Phone, No Booking Fee, Save Up To 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

All other retailers should sell them too.

Ok, thanks, that's all!

 

[redreni]

You can buy a Travelcard covering Zones 1-9 online and collect it at the ticket machine at any of the stations listed here. You'll need to enter an origin station that's within Zones 7-9, such as Amersham or Brentwood. The Travelcard is then sold with a destination of London Zones 1-6, but the routing is 'AAA Zones 7-9', which means it's additionally valid in Zones 7-9.

'Boundary Zone' refers to when you want to make a journey that goes beyond the validity of your Travelcard. You can buy a ticket to/from the relevant Boundary Zone, and then you will just pay the fare for the part of your journey that the Travelcard doesn't cover. Your train doesn't need to stop at any particular station for this combination to be valid - this is an exception to the normal rule when 'split ticketing', since one of your tickets is zonal. So with a Zones 1-6 or 1-9 Travelcard and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to Witham, you could take a train that runs non-stop from Stratford to Shenfield or beyond.

Unfortunately you can't buy tickets from Boundary Zones 7, 8 or 9 - the highest Boundary Zone location is Boundary Zone 6. Therefore it may be cheaper to buy a Zones 1-6 Travelcard and Boundary Zone 6 ticket, depending on what exactly you're planning on doing. If you can provide us with more details we will be able to advise on the most appropriate combination of tickets.

Most retailers don't sell Boundary Zone tickets online but a handful do - to my knowledge this is currently limited to Avanti West Coast and TrainSplit (if you specify that you already have a Travelcard in the 'Advanced options' menu). Otherwise you can buy them at any ticket office or certain ticket machines (it depends on the configuration - you'll need to specify a different origin station, namely the relevant Boundary Zone).

Query if the non-stop split is valid with the combination Witham to Boundary Zone 6 and an inboundary Zones 1-9 Travelcard?

14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or
another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in
conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the
first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to
Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

On that combination of tickets, is it not the case that on the London-bound leg the last station at which the Witham to Boundary Zone 6 ticket is valid is Harold Wood and the first station at which the Travelcard is valid is Brentwood?

I can see that it would be unreasonable to enforce the requirement set out in the words in bold, above, when a ticket to/from Boundary Zone 9 cannot be purchased. On the other hand, would TfL not argue that you can just buy and use a ticket to or from Brentwood in lieu of the non-existent ticket to or from Boundary Zone 9?

 

[hkstudent]

Yes; get a Travelcard from Shenfield:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Actually I am thinking of whether it is legally permissible to get a Brentwood - London zone 1-6 travelcard (aaa 7-9), effectively a zone 1-9 dat travelcard, and a wickford to Brentwood day return ticket? All sections are covered which could enable a through service?
As the difference between to shenfield and brentwood is £0.60 but the difference between travelcard from shenfield and brentwood is around £5

 

[gazr]

Don't know if it is because I use a gold card discount or using a zone 1-9 travelcard, but be careful when using that gates if going via Liverpool Street as the blooming things scratch/magnetise the barcode and make you find someone to let you in/out of gates from that point on.

 

[yorkie]

Actually I am thinking of whether it is legally permissible to get a Brentwood - London zone 1-6 travelcard (aaa 7-9), effectively a zone 1-9 dat travelcard, and a wickford to Brentwood day return ticket? All sections are covered which could enable a through service?

The train needs to call at Brentwood, as advised.

 

[hkstudent]

The train needs to call at Brentwood, as advised.

I beg to differ as despite technically the ticket maybe a zone 1-6 ticket with extra validity to zone 9. But, with buying a travelcard from TfL new style POMs (ticket machine) at LO/Elizabeth stations, they would generate a Amersham or Brentwood to London zone 1-6 travelcard, which TfL would say that’s a zone 1-9 travelcard.

Also physical wise, that ticket is printed on one paper ticket instead of two, which means that the “two sewed in” tickets are would be one ticket for general people sense. Then, as it’s one ticket, then that shouldn’t be problematic, as especially when upon inspection, you just have two tickets to show.

 

[yorkie]

I beg to differ as despite technically the ticket maybe a zone 1-6 ticket with extra validity to zone 9...

There is no "technically" or "maybe"; that is what it is.

But, with buying a travelcard from TfL new style POMs (ticket machine) at LO/Elizabeth stations, they would generate a Amersham or Brentwood to London zone 1-6 travelcard, which TfL would say that’s a zone 1-9 travelcard.

Shenfield is not within Zones 1-9.

Also physical wise, that ticket is printed on one paper ticket instead of two

This is irrelevant, and I don't understand what relevance you think it has?

, which means that the “two sewed in” tickets are would be one ticket for general people sense. Then, as it’s one ticket, then that shouldn’t be problematic.

With respect, this doesn't make any sense.

 

[Haywain]

If the ticket were issued from Amersham to Zones 1-6, AAA Zones 7-9, it would have the same validity as a Brentwood ticket, and I cannot see that a call at Brentwood would be required. Therefore I can't see why a call is required for a Travelcard issued to start from Brentwood.

 

[Watershed]

If the ticket were issued from Amersham to Zones 1-6, AAA Zones 7-9, it would have the same validity as a Brentwood ticket, and I cannot see that a call at Brentwood would be required. Therefore I can't see why a call is required for a Travelcard issued to start from Brentwood.

Agreed. Very technically it could be argued that a non-stop split at Boundary Zone 6 isn't permitted since the start and end validity of the tickets isn't the same otherwise, but you'd be overpaying if you bought such a fare. So if you get a Brentwood to Zones 1-6 AAA Z7-9 Travelcard, split at Brentwood; if you get a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, split at Boundary Zone 6.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed. Very technically it could be argued that a non-stop split at Boundary Zone 6 isn't permitted since the start and end validity of the tickets isn't the same otherwise, but you'd be overpaying if you bought such a fare. So if you get a Brentwood to Zones 1-6 AAA Z7-9 Travelcard, split at Brentwood; if you get a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, split at Boundary Zone 6.

Yes, I agree that Wickford to Boundary Zone 6 (not Brentwood, as suggested by @hkstudent), plus Brentwood to London Zones 1-6 (AAA 7-9) would be valid for non-stop travel.

(The technicality could not reasonably be interpreted as preventing overlapping validity, in my opinion; it's just poor wording of the rules).

 

[MikeWh]

Yes, I agree that Wickford to Boundary Zone 6 (not Brentwood, as suggested by @hkstudent), plus Brentwood to London Zones 1-6 (AAA 7-9) would be valid for non-stop travel.

(The technicality could not reasonably be interpreted as preventing overlapping validity, in my opinion; it's just poor wording of the rules).

I'm sorry, I just don't get this.

Surely the rule is that a call is not required if one of the tickets is a zonal ticket. If the travelcard includes zones 7-9 then the whole of zones 1-9 are covered and a ticket to a station in zone 9 (ie Brentwood) is sufficient.

Are you saying that the route field doesn't convert the ticket into a zone 1-9 travelcard?
Seriously, if I've got this wrong, please explain as clearly as possibly why.

 

[redreni]

I'm sorry, I just don't get this.

Surely the rule is that a call is not required if one of the tickets is a zonal ticket. If the travelcard includes zones 7-9 then the whole of zones 1-9 are covered and a ticket to a station in zone 9 (ie Brentwood) is sufficient.

Are you saying that the route field doesn't convert the ticket into a zone 1-9 travelcard?
Seriously, if I've got this wrong, please explain as clearly as possibly why.

I raised this as a query in post 12 above. Nothing to do with the weird way the zonal validity is defined by the route field.

Nor is there any potential problem with one of the tickets being a daily zonal ticket.

Nor of the two tickets together covering the journey.

It's the overlapping validity that could be said to preclude the non-stop split (see the words from 14.3 NRCoT - in bold - quoted in post 12, above).

It's not a big deal since you could do the non-stop split with a 1-9 travelcard plus a point-to-point ticket to or from Brentwood.

 

[MikeWh]

I've just re-read this thread again. I'm still confused.

I get the issue of overlapping validity with z1-9 tc and bz6 ticket, but that isn't what I'm confused about. What I don't understand is this post by @yorkie.

Yes, I agree that Wickford to Boundary Zone 6 (not Brentwood, as suggested by @hkstudent), plus Brentwood to London Zones 1-6 (AAA 7-9) would be valid for non-stop travel.

(The technicality could not reasonably be interpreted as preventing overlapping validity, in my opinion; it's just poor wording of the rules).

Why is a Wickford to Brentwood ticket plus a Brentwood to zones 1-6 (AAA 7-9) not valid for non-stop splits?
Would it be different if the travelcard was Amersham to zones 1-6 (AAA 7-9)?

 

[yorkie]

OK so the argument is that you can use an outboundary Travelcard in conjunction with a point to point ticket to the named station without calling anywhere, because the Travelcard is issued to a zonal destination, thus making it a Zonal ticket.

Again, this comes down to sloppy wording on the part of the NRCoT, as I doubt this ticket is intended to be valid that way.

Fine, you can make that argument, but there is no guarantee that a ticket inspector would see it that way; it's not an argument I'd be wanting to have in a court where I could be found guilty of a criminal offence.

Pragmatically of course it should be accepted, but not all ticket inspectors are pragmatic.

 

[MikeWh]

Again, this comes down to sloppy wording on the part of the NRCoT, as I doubt this ticket is intended to be valid that way.

Why not? In the case of Brentwood the NRCOT seems quite clear*:

14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or
another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in
conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the
first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to
Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

Do you think Southampton to Surbiton and a zones 1-6 travelcard is valid on a train which doesn't call at Surbiton?


*For the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT talking about the scenario where there is an overlap. I agree that z1-9 and bz6-somewhere ought to be valid, but potentially isn't where zones 7-9 exist. I'm also not talking about an out boundary travelcard (ie Shenfield) where the join is not zonal and thus the train does need to stop.

 

[yorkie]

The problem here is what status do Zones 7-9 actually have?

I'm also not talking about an out boundary travelcard (ie Shenfield) where the join is not zonal and thus the train does need to stop.

Brentwood to Zones 1-6 is an outboundary Travelcard.

 

[MikeWh]

The problem here is what status do Zones 7-9 actually have?


Brentwood to Zones 1-6 is an outboundary Travelcard.

They clearly are zonal, even if there's only 1 station in the zone. Does it make a difference if the travelcard is Amersham to zones 1-6 aaa 7-9?

 

[yorkie]

It's the same validity whether issued from Amersham or Brentwood.

Is there a definitive National Rail source (not TfL) that states Brentwood is in Zone 9? I'm struggling to find one.

 

[bcarmicle]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/brentwood/ says it’s in London Fare Zone 9 - but also what reason is there to believe that TfL and National Rail would disagree as to the zone of a station?

 

[Haywain]

Is there a definitive National Rail source (not TfL) that states Brentwood is in Zone 9? I'm struggling to find one.

There are clear TfL maps that show that Brentwood is in zone 9, and route AAA Zones 7-9 tickets are only available to be issued from stations in zones 7-9.