Travelcard Questions?

[yorkie]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/brentwood/ says it’s in London Fare Zone 9

OK, that should suffice. A Google search for it wasn't finding much in the way of results and the Greater Anglia site doesn't acknowledge Brentwood!

but also what reason is there to believe that TfL and National Rail would disagree as to the zone of a station?

Zones 7-9 are not true Zones in the sense that Zones 1-6 are. They should be, but it was all done as a bodge. In other words, not all zones are treated equal.

If the origin is outside Zones 1-6, the Travelcard is deemed to be "out boundary". The bodge to include Zones 7-9 (which initially only applied just beyond North West London) is to amend the route field, rather than the destination.

In other words, a Travelcard from Brentwood is an outboundary Travelcard; furthermore it is 'also available at' Zones 7-9.

Some sources state that the validity of Brentwood being in Zone 9 is 'unadvertised', though now that it's included in the NRCoT, that's clearly out of date.

While I don't believe it is intended that a non-stop split is possible at Brentwood, pragmatically it absolutely should be accepted, but notwithstanding whether it is or isn't intended to be valid and/or whether it should or shouldn't be accepted, if anyone was faced with being charged an excess fare, new fare, penalty fare or a prosecution, there should be sufficient evidence to say that the (sloppily worded) rules of the NRCoT are met; if nothing else on the basis that where there is any ambiguity over a contracutal term, it should be ruled in favour of the customer.

However a Wickford to Brentwood plus Brentwood to Zones 1-6 combination might not guarantee a stress-free situation, in the (admittedly unlikely) event of a ticket inspection.

 

[Haywain]

If the origin is outside Zones 1-6, the Travelcard is deemed to be "out boundary". The bodge to include Zones 7-9 (which initially only applied just beyond North West London) is to amend the route field, rather than the destination.

I'm afraid that just isn't true. They have the same unlimited validity in zones 7-9 as they do in zones 1-6.

 

[yorkie]

I'm afraid that just isn't true. They have the same unlimited validity in zones 7-9 as they do in zones 1-6.

I'm not saying that, but the rules for determining the permitted routes remain the same, that you plan the journey to the first station in Zone 6; Zones 7-9 are disregarded.

Zones 7-9 do not have quite the same status as Zones 1-6. Of course, they should do.

 

[JonathanH]

A travelcard from Shenfield is also routed AAA LDN Zone 7-9 but Shenfield definitely isn't in Zone 9. Is it valid for multiple trips from London to Brentwood, but only one return journey from Shenfield to Brentwood?

I dont really understand why it is issued with route AAA LDN Zone 7-9.

 

[yorkie]

A travelcard from Shenfield is also valid AAA Zone 7-9 but Shenfield definitely isn't in Zone 9. Is it valid for multiple trips from London to Brentwood, but only one return journey from Shenfield to Brentwood?

That's correct, yes.

I dont really understand why it is issued with route AAA Zone 7-9.

I guess because it would seem mean not to include the additional validity; especially given it costs a lot more!

(OK you could use the same argument beyond Shenfield, say with Billericay, but I guess there has to be a cut-off somewhere, and Shenfield is so close to Brentwood, that's where it has been deemed sensible to extend it to? In a sensible world, the original poster could simply buy a ticket from Wickford to Zones 1-9 but that just isn't possible at present).

 

[Watershed]

In other words, a Travelcard from Brentwood is an outboundary Travelcard; furthermore it is 'also available at' Zones 7-9.

Some sources state that the validity of Brentwood being in Zone 9 is 'unadvertised', though now that it's included in the NRCoT, that's clearly out of date.

While I don't believe it is intended that a non-stop split is possible at Brentwood, pragmatically it absolutely should be accepted, but notwithstanding whether it is or isn't intended to be valid and/or whether it should or shouldn't be accepted, if anyone was faced with being charged an excess fare, new fare, penalty fare or a prosecution, there should be sufficient evidence to say that the (sloppily worded) rules of the NRCoT are met; if nothing else on the basis that where there is any ambiguity over a contracutal term, it should be ruled in favour of the customer.

However a Wickford to Brentwood plus Brentwood to Zones 1-6 combination might not guarantee a stress-free situation, in the (admittedly unlikely) event of a ticket inspection.

I'm struggling to see why this could be seen as controversial? Brentwood is clearly shown on maps as being in Zone 9. A Brentwood Travelcard is issued to London Zones 1-6, AAA 7-9, so it constitutes a Zones 1-9 Travelcard. I don't see that anything can be read into the way that the Zones 1-9 validity is shown on the ticket.

That being the case, when combining the above ticket with another ticket to/from Brentwood, it's clearly a valid non-stop split that is analogous to holding a Z1-6 TC plus a Harold Wood <> X ticket. I don't doubt there are some staff who might claim that's not valid, but I don't see that Brentwood or Z1-9 has anything to do with that - it's purely a matter of poor training and they may say the same about all sorts of other valid (combinations of) tickets.

 

[gazr]

Just to throw something into the mix... how would a Zone 1-9 Travelcard be viewed if purchased from an Underground Station- this has no "AAA 7-9" nonsense on it (from memory) and is an identical product.

 

[hkstudent]

Just to throw something into the mix... how would a Zone 1-9 Travelcard be viewed if purchased from an Underground Station- this has no "AAA 7-9" nonsense on it (from memory) and is an identical product.

As I would have said, that pink LU ticket would be a single travelcard that covers the whole zone 1 to 9.

NR ticket is getting the issue of AAA 7-9 as due to their limitations of unable to recognise zone 7-9 as that wasn’t in the most original ticketing agreement between TfL and DfT. it got to be rectified but seems not be on anyone’s agenda.

 

[Joe Paxton]

As I would have said, that pink LU ticket would be a single travelcard that covers the whole zone 1 to 9.

NR ticket is getting the issue of AAA 7-9 as due to their limitations of unable to recognise zone 7-9 as that wasn’t in the most original ticketing agreement between TfL and DfT. it got to be rectified but seems not be on anyone’s agenda.

Said original agreement (regarding the Travelcard product) would actually have been between London Regional Transport and British Rail.

 

[hkstudent]

Said original agreement (regarding the Travelcard product) would actually have been between London Regional Transport and British Rail.

Oh yeah thanks. The national rail element of travelcard/ capital card started back in 1989

 

[Joe Paxton]

Oh yeah thanks. The national rail element of travelcard/ capital card started back in 1989

The Capitalcard actually dates from 1985! It was only issued as a season ticket in the first year - the One Day Capitalcard was introduced in 1986.

The Capitalcard was renamed as the (new) Travelcard in 1989 - it superceded the old, LT-only Travelcard.

See The Story of Capitalcard, on the Southern Railway Publicity website.