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TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

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TheGrandWazoo

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Thank you for sharing a the relevant section this time, the whole 100+ page document was too much to wade through. It is however saying much the same thing as the public inquiry documents that I had already looked at and I still cannot understand in what way, other than overtaking provsion and saving a few seconds by avoiding a 40mph restriction 'through' a village, using the new road would be any more efficient than the existing one.
You don't have to wade through 100 pages. It is structured to enable you to focus on specific sections.

I'm really struggling to see what you can't understand
  • Fewer delays to HGVs that constitute an above-average amount of the traffic and, more crucially, the resilience and reliability so freight operators can and rely on timings
  • Safer from fewer frustrated drivers making ill-advised overtaking manoeuvres
  • Improved and safer local environments in villages

Sorry if I am misinterpereting (and, as a result, then misrepresenting) what you have said, but earlier you seemed to be strongly implying there that freight benefits are the main reason behind the bypasses, eg:
I'm not strongly implying anything. It says that in the document!!
While the A40 in Pembrokeshire is perhaps a rather small issue in the grand scheme of things, it is probably one of the bigger issues in 'my patch'.
Probably a reflection of the patch but remember, the real opportunities to effect real change and modal shift aren't going to be taking place in small towns with a population of 15k like Haverfordwest; it'll be in Swansea and Cardiff. It seems bonkers to have electric buses on the T22 or T1 but not in Swansea!
 
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Rhydgaled

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I'm really struggling to see what you can't understand
  • Fewer delays to HGVs that constitute an above-average amount of the traffic and, more crucially, the resilience and reliability so freight operators can and rely on timings
  • Safer from fewer frustrated drivers making ill-advised overtaking manoeuvres
  • Improved and safer local environments in villages
What I don't understand is how the provision of an overtaking lane would reduce delays to HGVs (your first bullet point) other than by allowing them to overtake tractors (and other really slow vehicles).

The other two bullet points I understand, but they can be addressed with much less environmental damage. For the village (only one on the section in question), impose a 30mph speed limit, widen a particular stretch of narrow pavement and provide a footbridge or subway to allow safe crossing. For the frustrated drivers, prohibt overtaking altogether by painting a pair of solid white lines down the middle of the road.

seriously it could be inter-worked with the Cardigan local service in that the vehicle would have time to do a trip on this each hour during its layover, either with 460 drivers or the existing local service driver, so it should be possible to work it to hourly at a reasonable cost.
I've had a quick look at that but the Cardigan town service appears to be very nearly a 40 minute round trip so would have to be changed significantly to be able to save a vehicle by interworking with the 460.

The 460 was, I think, operated by Richard Bros (2 boards) and Morris Travel (1 board) with the latter later passing to First Cymru. 12 mins recovery time in every 180 mins is not overly generous but not unreasonable either. It was obviously too long for a driver to do two round trips but why the need to have a 3h15 cycle...? In the days of Davies Bros, it was run from the Carmarthen and Pencader depots and with spare fleet in Carmarthen during the day between schools, it was easy to slip an extra vehicle in. Not au fait with the requirements of the Cardigan local services and whether a full size vehicle (that the 460 needs) could be accommodated to allow interworking.
Richards Bros and Morris Travel did share the 460 service at one point but I cannot remember when Richards Bros gained the second vehicle 'diagram'. I remember Richards Bros just having the one bus (the Optare Versa YJ59GFU) on it and the other operator (First or Morris, can't remember) having two and then it was re-tendered and Richards picked up a second one.

As for full size vehicles, I'm not sure about the Cardigan town service but there is a photo of YJ55BKE at Poppit Sands on Flickr doing the Cardigan - St. Dogmaels - Poppit Sands run that I think the town service currently interworks with. Unfortunately Cardigan to Poppit Sans and back is almost a half-hour round trip itself, so interworking the 460 with that wouldn't be straightforward either.

I do think it is more sensible to stick with the T numbering for the longer distance network rather than lose passengers who don't realise that an X50/550 is just a slightly slower version of the T5 and it goes where they want to go.
I see your point but X50, 50 and 550 are not new numbers, they are what was there before so passengers who have been around for a while will have some idea of where they go. Even so, the T5 has been around for some time now so for the reason you give one of the routes should probably retain that number, even if we do give up on TrawsCymru as a brand. However, the T5 is not one route - if somebody wants to travel to Blaenporth, Aberporth, Trecwn, Mathry Road or even New Quay (since one trip each way still avoids it) it does not necessarily go where they want to go. In the short term I think there should be three routes, the first three listed below (with the fourth added when finances permit and being the only one which could be branded TrawsCymru), each with its own number:
  • (Aberystwyth) - Aberaeron - New Quay - Aberporth - Cardigan - Newport - Fishguard - Trecwn - Mathry Road - Haverfordwest
  • (Aberystwyth) - Aberaeron - New Quay - Blaenporth - Cardigan
  • (Cardigan - Newport) - Fishguard - Mathry Road - Haverfordwest
  • Aberystwyth - Aberaeron - Cardigan - Newport - Fishguard - Fishguard Harbour
I note all the other arguments above. I don't see that it should be either/or for bus improvements and A40 improvements.
We're facing Climate Breakdown, we need to REDUCE the use of cars (and HGVs, somehow, but buses won't help with that) and cover more of Earth's surface with photosynthesising plants. The A40 'improvements' are based on increasing traffic and will replace a fair bit of greenery (including some ancient woodland) with tarmac.

And to spend all that money on a depot for electric vehicles for the T1 seems a bit mad, why not use it for a larger number of vehicles somewhere else. The T1 is not an obvious route for electric vehicles compares to local services which would have a better chance of a full day's work on one charge.
As I have said earlier in relation to the T19/T22, I can't see the benefit of electric vehicles on TC routes when there are much more logical places in which to achieve better results. Doubt if the air quality in Blaenau is a major issue in comparison to some of the major routes into, for instance, Wrexham. Just seems like a vanity thing IMHO.
Part of the Welsh Government's decarbonisation policy is to deliver a zero tailpipe emission bus fleet by 2028 (see Proseprity for All A Low Carbon Wales, page 106). If that date was 2050 I'd agree that it would make much more sense to start with the biggest towns and cities but, if they're going to make the 2028 target given the lack of progress so far, everywhere is going to get electric buses more or less at once anyway.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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What I don't understand is how the provision of an overtaking lane would reduce delays to HGVs (your first bullet point) other than by allowing them to overtake tractors (and other really slow vehicles).
Hurray - you've got it.... I knew we'd get there eventually! You're not one for travelling on the A40 and seeing what it's like?
The other two bullet points I understand, but they can be addressed with much less environmental damage. For the village (only one on the section in question), impose a 30mph speed limit, widen a particular stretch of narrow pavement and provide a footbridge or subway to allow safe crossing. For the frustrated drivers, prohibt overtaking altogether by painting a pair of solid white lines down the middle of the road.
Apart from they can't. In a number of locations, the footprint simply doesn't allow it to happen. Even having a 30 limit doesn't get away from having 44 ton vehicles trundling past people's front doors. Put it another way.... if it was so simple and so considerably cheaper, they'd do it.

As for having no overtaking for mile upon mile...that is just lunacy as you're simply going to frustrate drivers even more and it still doesn't solve the problems of reliability of journey times.
Part of the Welsh Government's decarbonisation policy is to deliver a zero tailpipe emission bus fleet by 2028 (see Proseprity for All A Low Carbon Wales, page 106). If that date was 2050 I'd agree that it would make much more sense to start with the biggest towns and cities but, if they're going to make the 2028 target given the lack of progress so far, everywhere is going to get electric buses more or less at once anyway.
Erm....your link doesn't appear to work (or be spelt correctly). However, even if it is 2028 (which is unlikely), it would still make much more sense to be zero emission in towns in 2023 than pootling around the Conwy Valley
 

Rhydgaled

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Hurray - you've got it.... I knew we'd get there eventually! You're not one for travelling on the A40 and seeing what it's like?
Err, I'm not sure I have. I asked back in post #2,299 whether the main purpose of the new stretch(es) of A40 was so that lorries can overtake tractors and you said that I'd got it wrong, but now you're saying I've got it right?

Before the pandemic, I travelled on the Haverfordwest-Carmarthen bus service a few times. On at least two occasions the bus got stuck trying to rejoin the A40 after venturing off the A40 to serve one of the towns/villages bypassed. On one of those trips we were waiting for over 10 minutes, if I recall correctly, and I almost missed the T5/412 (whichever it was at the time) as a result. That's another reason why bypasses are bad for public transport. You solve journey time unreliability for one group of travellers but make it worse for others.
Apart from they can't. In a number of locations, the footprint simply doesn't allow it to happen. Even having a 30 limit doesn't get away from having 44 ton vehicles trundling past people's front doors. Put it another way.... if it was so simple and so considerably cheaper, they'd do it.
As I said, there is only one village affected by the latest A40 scheme(s), Llanddewi Velfrey. I have seen what it is like because I visited the fish & chip shop there a few times and went to one or two events in the village hall there relating to the bypass. The houses aren't strung along both sides of the existing trunk road, instead most of the village is contained within a triangle of roads (two minor ones and the A40) to the south of the A40 with another minor road heading north forming a sort of staggered crossroads just to the west. The village hall and a few more houses are to be found along the sides of this northbound minor road. All that is needed in my view is:
  • a safe crossing for pedestrians near that staggered crossroads, to link the two 'unequal halves' of the village
  • pavement widening along the A40 on the 'north side of the triangle' stretch
I don't think I would have noticed the need for the latter in my time there, particularly as I didn't walk that part of the pavement, but I have added this having read various documentation outlining the resident's concerns. To a layman, there appears to be plenty of space for an underpass; whether a Civil engineer would agree I cannot say.

As for having no overtaking for mile upon mile...that is just lunacy as you're simply going to frustrate drivers even more and it still doesn't solve the problems of reliability of journey times.
So what if I frustrate car drivers even more, as long as they are prevented from carrying out dangerous overtaking maneuvers I would regard that as a benefit as they're more likely to go by train in future. The same applies to journey time unreliability for motorists; good. You rightly mention an increase in fuel duty as a possible means of discouraging car use, I see journey time unreliability and driver frustration as further tools for doing that. Admittedly it is a bit harsh to do that to freight since there isn't an alternative at the moment (hopefully one will eventually be developed) but I don't suppose HGV drivers will risk overtaking on the 'unimproved' A40 anyway so would be no worse off than they are now.

Yes, there is an argument for allowing HGVs to overtake tractors since, hopefully for a limited time, we have no alternative. But is that worth the impact on local wildlife, many tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions, the fueling of car culture and the cutting down of ancient woodland? My view is that it is not.

Erm....your link doesn't appear to work (or be spelt correctly). However, even if it is 2028 (which is unlikely), it would still make much more sense to be zero emission in towns in 2023 than pootling around the Conwy Valley
The link works for me, but yes it does appear to be mispelt.
 

GusB

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I feel that we are drifting away from the main topic by focussing on the state of the A40, although I appreciate that it will have an effect on some services. Might I suggest that the A40 discussion be continued separately in the Other Transport forum?
 

mangyiscute

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So just out of interest cause I saw someone mention the lack of buses north of Porthmadog towards Caernarfon, whats the latest on the 'new' T22 route that afaik was announced about a year and a half ago but is yet to run
 

Snow1964

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8 Yutong electric buses will be delivered for TrawsCymru services later in 2022 in Carmarthenshire, they are to be used on Carmarthen - Aberystwyth service

Yutong dealer in the UK Pelican has been awarded a zero emission vehicle contract by Carmarthenshire County Council. They are set to be used for the TrawsCymru route. The vehicles are planned to be delivered in Q3/4 2022.

The vehicles will have a number of state of the art specification items to ensure customer safety and comfort. The vehicles will be fitted with enhanced seating, as well as full air conditioning. Full WIFI, USB charging, and the very latest level passenger information systems will ensure that passengers arrive at their destinations in a level of comfort not normally seen in bus operations. The vehicles will also be fitted with industry leading safety systems, including ABS and Yutong Electric Safety Systems.
 

Bletchleyite

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Saw a T10 earlier on, and wow - it appears to be operated using some sort of brand new partly low floor coach type vehicle. I briefly felt like I was in Switzerland (until it started to hail). This is the standard our National Park bus services should be aspiring to to really be attractive to tourists.
 

Llandudno

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Saw a T10 earlier on, and wow - it appears to be operated using some sort of brand new partly low floor coach type vehicle. I briefly felt like I was in Switzerland (until it started to hail). This is the standard our National Park bus services should be aspiring to to really be attractive to tourists.
But did you see any passengers on board…?

The T19 from Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog was operated by a minibus today, not really conducive to entice tourists to public transport…
 

Bletchleyite

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But did you see any passengers on board…?

Not many, no. But I think I would separate the economics of that very odd route (which has a weak case to go past Betws and would arguably be better as part of the Snowdon Sherpa group of services - though a good service past Llyn Ogwen is certainly an "about time") from the superb, European style standard of the vehicles being used.

The T19 from Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog was operated by a minibus today, not really conducive to entice tourists to public transport…

Most tourists would just use the train for that unless the times really did not suit. But aren't electrics coming?
 

mmh

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But did you see any passengers on board…?

The T19 from Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog was operated by a minibus today, not really conducive to entice tourists to public transport…
Not one of the new grey LlJ ones with "VIP" on them? To be fair, they might have more than one, and as a private hire fantastic, but I'd had enough just going from Deganwy to Conwy on a "normal" 19. All the way would be horrendous.

Not many, no. But I think I would separate the economics of that very odd route (which has a weak case to go past Betws and would arguably be better as part of the Snowdon Sherpa group of services - though a good service past Llyn Ogwen is certainly an "about time") from the superb, European style standard of the vehicles being used.



Most tourists would just use the train for that unless the times really did not suit. But aren't electrics coming?
Most tourists don't use the train, in all parts of Wales, not just the Conwy Valley where, as you're well aware, very few do.
 
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Llandudno

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Not one of the new grey LlJ ones with "VIP" on them? To be fair, they might have more than one, and as a private hire fantastic, but I'd had enough just going from Deganwy to Conwy on a "normal" 19. All the way would be horrendous.


Most tourists don't use the train, in all parts of Wales, not just the Conwy Valley where, as you're well aware, very few do.
The smart VIP mini coach was allocated to the 19 all shacks route via Trefriw, which in all fairness carries far more passengers than the T19!

Yes, the electric buses are coming but so are 197s ….. eventually!
 

Rhydgaled

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Most tourists don't use the train, in all parts of Wales, not just the Conwy Valley where, as you're well aware, very few do.
I guess you mean that most tourists go by car, but I expect those that do use public transport will mostly be using rail rather than bus. If only because they don't know the bus exists.

In the other direction, when I go on holiday to England I find it very difficult to find details of what bus services exist and am largely restricted to rail travel as a result. I find the Traveline sites aren't very user friendly (and do you have to find the right regional one or can, for example, Traveline Cymru be used to plan journeys in Hampshire?). Unfortunately, to find route maps and timetables you have to first work out what bus operator(s) serve the area and/or figure out which side of the county border the town you're heading to is to go to the correct council's website. Even then, some councils/operators don't have a route map for the area and some don't even have timetables and just direct you to Traveline.
 

Dai Corner

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I guess you mean that most tourists go by car, but I expect those that do use public transport will mostly be using rail rather than bus. If only because they don't know the bus exists.

In the other direction, when I go on holiday to England I find it very difficult to find details of what bus services exist and am largely restricted to rail travel as a result. I find the Traveline sites aren't very user friendly (and do you have to find the right regional one or can, for example, Traveline Cymru be used to plan journeys in Hampshire?). Unfortunately, to find route maps and timetables you have to first work out what bus operator(s) serve the area and/or figure out which side of the county border the town you're heading to is to go to the correct council's website. Even then, some councils/operators don't have a route map for the area and some don't even have timetables and just direct you to Traveline.
England do have Bus Open Data whereby all operators are required to upload their routes, timetables and real time running data to a central database which third parties can use to provide the kind of info you want to the public.

Timetables and indivdual route maps are available but nobody's done an all-operator area map outside London as far as I'm aware.
 

Man of Kent

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England do have Bus Open Data whereby all operators are required to upload their routes, timetables and real time running data to a central database which third parties can use to provide the kind of info you want to the public.

Timetables and indivdual route maps are available but nobody's done an all-operator area map outside London as far as I'm aware.
Try http://www.busatlas.uk/ for the all operator maps. It's still a work in progress at the moment, with only one covering part of Wales so far: http://www.busatlas.uk/busatlas13_southeastwales_2022_01.pdf
 

-Colly405-

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England do have Bus Open Data whereby all operators are required to upload their routes, timetables and real time running data to a central database which third parties can use to provide the kind of info you want to the public.

Timetables and indivdual route maps are available but nobody's done an all-operator area map outside London as far as I'm aware.
Regionally, the West of England Combined Authority (i.e. Bristol, South Glos and Bath North East Somerset) has a series of all-operator maps available as hard copy as well as online.
 

Dai Corner

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The discussion on bus maps in England is interesting but off topic for this thread.

I've started a new thread here
 

Runningaround

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Considering buses are road users, moving cars and through traffic out of the town centre bottlenecks improves the bus service that still does. The T2 used to have up to 30 mins added to its timetable in summer before Porthmadog was bypassed. I'd dread to think what Dolgellau would be like today without the bypass. I'm certain those with a choice would rather be stuck in traffic in the car rather than on a Bus, so improving the roads also improves the bus journey.
 

Rhydgaled

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Richards Bros' website is now showing new timetables for the T5 from 27th June. The 'links' to download a PDF at the top of the T5 new timetable page don't seem to be working, but if you scroll down there are JPEG versions there. I haven't had a detailed look, but there is one obvious change; the extensions to the hospital/university have all been removed on Saturdays and reduced to just two each way Monday-Friday. Blaenporth and Blaenannerch though still appear to have just one bus each way, which is at unsociable hours.
 

Bwsbro

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Richards Bros' website is now showing new timetables for the T5 from 27th June. The 'links' to download a PDF at the top of the T5 new timetable page don't seem to be working, but if you scroll down there are JPEG versions there. I haven't had a detailed look, but there is one obvious change; the extensions to the hospital/university have all been removed on Saturdays and reduced to just two each way Monday-Friday. Blaenporth and Blaenannerch though still appear to have just one bus each way, which is at unsociable hours.

To be honest I can’t remember seeing any of their vehicles extending beyond the town centre to the University due to persistent late running since the introduction of the new timetable
 

johntrawscymru

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To be honest I can’t remember seeing any of their vehicles extending beyond the town centre to the University due to persistent late running since the introduction of the new timetable
Unfortunately they usually did extend to the University, usually with no passengers.
Already running late into Aberystwyth because of the extension through Aberporth, the drivers had to return from the University to Aberystwyth to pick up passengers and set off straight away. Frequently the drivers had no rest time in Aberystwyth and therefore had a continuous 4 plus hours return trip.
 
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johntrawscymru

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Observations regarding Trawscymru on Tuesday


I do not use Trawscymru so much these days but had to on Tuesday. I went to catch the T5 into Aberystwyth and the bus did not arrive. The bus stop has had a new electronic system to show the times of the next bus. What I did notice was as soon as the time got to the arrival time in the timetable the electronic system lost the T5 and showed then only the arrival time of the next bus 35 minutes later.

There is a full printed timetable at the bus stop so the electronic system is pretty pointless as it clicks over at the allotted arrival time. In my ignorance I thought the electronic system would work on real time positioning of the bus to advise passengers when the bus was running late. I know from discussions with Richards Brothers that they employed real time positioning on their T5 buses in 2017.

After a few minutes 2 walkers arrived at the bus stop , looked at the electronic system and asked whether the next bus was in 30 minutes. I told them no it would be here soon. In fact it was 21 minutes late, according to the driver due to heavy traffic

However help is at hand as Transport for Wales are to introduce a new app employing live vehicle tracking capabilities !

https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/135942/transport-for-wales-bus-app-trawscymru/

The driver had to drop his passengers in Aberystwyth and immediately reload to return to Cardigan.

On the way into Aberystwyth passing Morrissons I noticed a non-logo T2 bus parked waiting to go to Bangor. It was quite colourful with a blue skirt, red middle and yellow pillars. Not the usual Lloyds livery.
 

sonic2009

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On the way into Aberystwyth passing Morrissons I noticed a non-logo T2 bus parked waiting to go to Bangor. It was quite colourful with a blue skirt, red middle and yellow pillars. Not the usual Lloyds livery.

Not sure if it could be one of the former MP Travel of Moore (Near Warrington) old buses - I believe some went to Lloyds.
 

Runningaround

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TFW have advertised a load of vacancies at Penrhydeudraeth, sounds like they've taken over running the Travelline Cymru call centre or there's plans on a massive upgrade of the two stations on a scale of turning it the size of Crewe planned.
 

markymark2000

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You can see the location of buses on this site - (click & drag to your area):> https://bustimes.org/map#10/53.206/-3.619
Only the T1C, T4, T6, T7, T12 and T14 track vis bustimes. Some due to the operators willingly sharing all of their tracking data. Others because the route run into England and as such legally have to share tracking data.

The T1, T2, T3, T5, T10, T11, T19 don't currently track thought hopefully this will change when the app gets released
 
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