Trivia - biggest London and non-London rail markets with no direct service

[deltic]

Now that direct rail services are operating between London to Blackpool and Shrewsbury what is the largest rail market (in terms of value) where there are no direct rail services?

For London market I suggest Middlesborough or Huddersfield

For non-London service I would suggest somewhere like Liverpool to Glasgow or Edinburgh

Any other ideas as to the most lucrative services where at the moment there are no through trains?

 

[thenorthern]

Middlesborough is a strange one as Eaglescliffe is very near to there and just outside the Teesside Urban area.

Blackburn and Burnley are quite large areas so is Birkenhead & The Wirrel.

Livingston is quite large and so is East Kilbride.

 

[Ianno87]

Bolton-London must be a decent contender.

 

[thenorthern]

Walsall and Rotherham are quite big and I don't think either has a link to London, Salford, Oldham, Rochdale and Gateshead also don't.

 

[74A]

Birkenhead. Just over the river from Liverpool but not actually part of it.

 

[J-2739]

Barnsley...?

(Yeah, I know that direct service to London St Pancras International was cut due to 'lack of demand' in 2008, but maybe things have changed...?)

 

[thenorthern]

Biggest urban areas that don't have a connection that should I would say is Birmingham and Norwich.

Barnsley...?

(Yeah, I know that direct service to London St Pancras International was cut due to 'lack of demand' in 2008, but maybe things have changed...?)

Would agree with that as Barnsley is an area in its own right not attached to anything where as other cities (or Town) such as Salford or Bolton are part of a larger urban area.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Please note the correct spelling of Middlesbrough (just the one "o")

Stand-alone places that always crop up in these threads are Huddersfield, Middlesbrough and Blackburn.

Both Huddersfield and Middlesbrough are due to gain London services under the new East Coast franchise, nothing on the horizon for Blackburn (or Bolton, or Barnsley) though...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I suspect this will go the same way as many other threads of this nature and be dominated by defining what constitutes a town / settlement / urban area etc. As much as it pains me to defend the place, whilst Bolton is pretty much contiguous with Salford and Manchester it is definitely a location in its own right (largest town in Northern England by population I think) for the purposes of this thread as far as I'm concerned, certainly as far as 'rail markets' would be concerned.

London to wherever will be the obvious nominations, many of which have been listed already. After that it gets harder - Birmingham is the second city (despite what the Mancs like to think) but as far as railway demand goes I think it's probably quite hard to tell what the answers would be. Similarly with other large cities such as Leeds and Bristol: whilst there are plenty of other large settlements without direct services to these two, it's hard to judge what the actual passenger demand is (I'm presuming that's what the OP is getting at?).

 

[deltic]

Sorry to be clear I am not interested in the largest town/city not connected to London or not connected to each other.

As MidnightFlyer correctly stated I am after the largest unmet passenger demand. So I cant imagine much demand from East Kibride or Livingston to London but there is probably reasonable demand from Great Yarmouth given that there used to be a few daily services between them in the not to distant past.

For non-London flows Birmingham tends to have good direct links to many locations whereas major or reasonable sized cities as Liverpool and Hull dont.

Given comments above my guess for markets that might be worth providing direct services if it was physically/operationally possible would be

London to Great Yarmouth, Huddersfield, Bolton, Middlesbrough and Blackburn

For non-London flows

Birmingham to Hull and Swansea
Manchester to Leicester/Derby
Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh

Brighton/Portsmouth to Birmingham and Manchester

 

[dk1]

Sorry to be clear I am not interested in the largest town/city not connected to London or not connected to each other.

As MidnightFlyer correctly stated I am after the largest unmet passenger demand. So I cant imagine much demand from East Kibride or Livingston to London but there is probably reasonable demand from Great Yarmouth given that there used to be a few daily services between them in the not to distant past.

For non-London flows Birmingham tends to have good direct links to many locations whereas major or reasonable sized cities as Liverpool and Hull dont.

Given comments above my guess for markets that might be worth providing direct services if it was physically/operationally possible would be

London to Great Yarmouth, Huddersfield, Bolton, Middlesbrough and Blackburn

For non-London flows

Birmingham to Hull and Swansea
Manchester to Leicester/Derby
Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh

Brighton/Portsmouth to Birmingham and Manchester

Middlesbrough & Huddersfield will be connected to Kings Cross within the next three years & Liverpool will be connected to Glasgow.

Great Yarmouth is very seasonal & perhaps could do with through services on Mondays, Friday's & Saturday's from May to September. Unfortunate the rolling stock ordered will not cater for this. Yes there are some bi-modes but these are allocated to specific routes.

 

[WatcherZero]

Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh already coming in with the new franchise, both a direct via West Coast and an indirect service via East Coast.

Bolton theres been talk of Virgin extending a first and last service of the day from Manchester once electrification and new platform complete similar to way Blackpool is served.

 

[DarloRich]

Middlesborough is a strange one as Eaglescliffe is very near to there and just outside the Teesside Urban area.

Blackburn and Burnley are quite large areas so is Birkenhead & The Wirrel.

Livingston is quite large and so is East Kilbride.

where is Middlesborough? Don't tell the good people of Yarm North you consider them part of the Boro! The wider Teesside area is served by Grand Central

Non London I would say something like Hell - Birmingham but I am unsure if there would be demand for that service. Surely Hull faces Leeds and Manchester ( M62 corridor) more than Brum?

 

[duncanp]

where is Middlesborough? :
Non London I would say something like Hell - Birmingham

Is that a deliberate typo?

 

[talltim]

Is that a deliberate typo?

Hell, Stjørdal - Birmingham would be quite a train ride

London-New York

 

[Groningen]

Sheerness-on-Sea?!

 

[rg177]

Sheerness-on-Sea?!

There's a peak hours only service direct from London to Sheerness and vice versa.

 

[Clip]

Sheerness-on-Sea?!

There are some direct services to London from there.

 

[thenorthern]

As much as it pains me to defend the place, whilst Bolton is pretty much contiguous with Salford and Manchester it is definitely a location in its own right (largest town in Northern England by population I think) for the purposes of this thread as far as I'm concerned, certainly as far as 'rail markets' would be concerned.

Blackpool I think is the largest but Bolton is 2nd I think.

 

[Taunton]

There are even sizeable places near to London with no rail service. Canvey Island, population 40,000, and even within London itself, New Addington, population 25,000, have no rail service, and have never had one.

 

[thenorthern]

Burton-on-Trent used to have one which was withdrawn in 2008 and would be useful to be re-introduced.

Barrow-in-Furness, Whitehaven and Workington all are relatively large places without one.

 

[Jona26]

Walsall and Rotherham are quite big and I don't think either has a link to London, Salford, Oldham, Rochdale and Gateshead also don't.

ISTR that Walsall is set to receive a direct London service as part of the next London Midland franchise.

 

[duncanp]

and even within London itself, New Addington, population 25,000, have no rail service, and have never had one.

THe first housing at New Addinton was built in the 1930's, after most railway lines in the area had been built.

One of the reasons for building Tramlink was to serve New Addington, and the New Addington branch does make use of a short stretch of the former Elmers End to Sanderstead line.

 

[Phil.]

Gert big towns like Blackpool and Bolton have no direct services to London but a little place like Hayle does. Go figure.

 

[thenorthern]

Gert big towns like Blackpool and Bolton have no direct services to London but a little place like Hayle does. Go figure.

With Hayle I think its just the case that its on a line that trains pass through where as with Blackpool its at the end of a branch line.

For example Kendal doesn't have a direct link to London but Oxenholme does even though Kendal is much bigger. The reasoning is because the lines passes through Oxenholme but doesn't pass through Kendal.

 

[Harbornite]

How about Cardiff to Edinburgh (currently no direct service), or Cardiff to Glasgow, York, Newcastle, Leicester etc. It goes without saying that Cardiff is pretty well served by GWR and Arriva TW, but it lacks a variety of XC services as it only has those to Nottingham and one a day to Manchester.

I'd also suggest Norwich to Birmingham.

 

[Comstock]

Burton-on-Trent used to have one which was withdrawn in 2008 and would be useful to be reintroduced.

Yes. Burton probably isn't the biggest place without direct rail service to London, but I would imagine it would make the top ten.

Although the previous direct rail service was never that direct as it went north to Derby and down the MML rather than south to Tamworth and onto the WCML.

There are probably all sorts of good reasons why the latter isn't practical.

 

[Parallel]

Possibly Barnstaple in Devon?

I know it's not the biggest town, but it's the largest area in North Devon with a railway station and London Terminals appears on the home screen of the TVM there.

 

[transmanche]

London-New York

I'm not sure that New York has ever had a station, but Shiremoor and Northumberland Park Metro stations are not far away. And you can change at Central Station for trains to London, plus VTEC do through fares too!

Oh, so you didn't mean New York in North Tyneside then...

 

[backontrack]

London to wherever will be the obvious nominations, many of which have been listed already. After that it gets harder - Birmingham is the second city (despite what the Mancs like to think) but as far as railway demand goes I think it's probably quite hard to tell what the answers would be. Similarly with other large cities such as Leeds and Bristol: whilst there are plenty of other large settlements without direct services to these two, it's hard to judge what the actual passenger demand is (I'm presuming that's what the OP is getting at?).

York is the second city! Followed by Norwich.