[Trivia] How many stations? And when does one station become two?

[Dr_Paul]

To what degree, if any, is Victoria run these days as two stations? Even after the formation of the Southern Railway, the two halves were fairly autonomous, but is this still the case?

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, it did. And the platform for the southbound through trains from Kings Cross to the City Widened Lines must surely have had its own entrance - steps down from York Way (as is now)? I can't envisage a connection from the platform to the main concourse - not least because the access to the old taxi road must have been in the way. But someone here will know...

I just had a look at the photos on the disused stations website, and it definitely suggests only one route to the street, up the steps to the external road level. The platform sign arrows are the same for both Way Out and Kings Cross station. Can’t think of a practical route for the public to get across to platform 1 directly, as the first requirement would have been to get across the curve heading underground.
Link to disused stations if anyone wants to see the relative positions:

Disused Stations: Kings Cross York Road Station

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is Deansgste one or two stations? There's the main line and a lengthy walk over the bridge to the tram stop, think it once had a different name, Gmex?

Deansgate (tram and rail) still have separate names, Deansgate-Castlefield is the name of the tram stop.
I consider them separate.

Could argue that the platforms at Wallgate are closer to North Western than Piccadilly 1 and 14! With an aireal walkway and renumbering of platforms I think it could be justified as one station, simply Wigan.

I doubt there'd be a walkway any time soon.
And without a walkway having the two separate is quite relevant since (more) people would probably end up at the wrong one.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Most split level stations like Shotton, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Willesden Junction, Minfford or NR/LU interchanges, were originally two stations built by different companies. Retford is unusual in that the low level station was only built in the 1960s, after over 120 years of sharing. Originally trains of both the GCR and GNR routes used the GNR station, with curves allowing running off the GCR route and back onto it, and a flat crossing to the south of the station for use of non-stopping services - mainly goods trains.
The flat junction became impractical because of the increase in coal traffic on the GCR route to serve Cottam and West Burton power stations (on the River Trent, to the east of the East Coast Main Line) from the Nottinghamshire coalfield (to the west), so the diveunder was built, but this severed the curve connecting the station to the Gainsborough direction so new low level platforms had to be built on the diveunder route. It was no longer possible to run between the Gainsborough and Doncaster directions via Retford, (which was the original GNR route from London to Doncaster, before the "Towns Line" via Grantham was built) without reversal, although the route across the Isle of Axholme still remains.

I'm sure back in BR days there was an explicit distinction between the high level and the low level in published timetables but I don't think that exists now. Similarly the North London line platforms when they ran under the station at Stratford were explicitly referred to as "Stratford Low Level".

In both cases it was possible for a train to/from one direction to use both HL and LL (From the Kensal Rise direction and the Lea Bridge direction respectively, and the distivtion was necessary for routing purposes, and to direct passengers to the right part of the station)

I just had a look at the photos [of York Road] on the disused stations website, and it definitely suggests only one route to the street, up the steps to the external road level.

It did. I used it once, shortly before closure.

 

[zwk500]

There are a number of National Rail stations that, for operating reasons are treated as two separate entities but, for commercial and retail purposes are treated as just one: Abbey Wood, Farringdon, Glasgow Central, Lichfield Trent Valley, Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, London Liverpool Street, London Paddington, London St Pancras (3 separate operating entities), Reading, Retford, Tamworth, Whitechapel.

Can add London Victoria (2), London Bridge (2) and Clapham Junction (4 - a record?), and the DC Lines are split at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushy and Watford Junction.

To what degree, if any, is Victoria run these days as two stations? Even after the formation of the Southern Railway, the two halves were fairly autonomous, but is this still the case?

Effectively operates as two separate stations but Brighton (or Sussex/Central) side trains do use platform 8, which is technically on the Chatham (or Kent/Eastern) side, I think.

Wigan is odd, two stations almost opposite each other across the street, virtually serving the same line in effect.

They serve quite different lines tbf - Wigan NW is on the London-Scotland line and Wigan Wallgate is on the Manchester-Southport line. Although yes there is a fair amount of overlap possible.

Could argue that the platforms at Wallgate are closer to North Western than Piccadilly 1 and 14! With an aireal walkway and renumbering of platforms I think it could be justified as one station, simply Wigan.

Lots of it is tied up in commercial history - even after all this time. Although comparing Platform 1 to 14 to Wigan is hardly fair - it'd be the gap between 12 and 13 at Piccadilly you should be comparing.

Can't think of any other station like that, although didn't Kings X have a through line attached to it once?

King's X had through lines as part of the York Road station and then the King's Cross Thameslink platforms for a while. Ebbsfleet has platforms 5/6 quite some distance away from the main station as they curve over to join the classic network just east of Northfleet.

 

[The exile]

Shotton is a good example. One station but the two sets of platforms are some distance apart, connected by a footpath. A similar situation occurs at Hackney, but these two have seperate names.

Suspect they are further apart than the two at St Budeaux- though you don’t have to cross a road.

 

[SargeNpton]

Can add London Victoria (2), London Bridge (2) and Clapham Junction (4 - a record?), and the DC Lines are split at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushy and Watford Junction.

The stations I listed are operationally separate in a more specific way than those you are quoting - and have to be treated differently in retail systems to ensure that passenger enquiries see them as one station as a consequence.

Your examples can be joined by another 150 or so

 

[PeterC]

Can't think of any other station like that, although didn't Kings X have a through line attached to it once?

My 1950 ABC guide shows northbound trains from Moorgate stopping in the main (actually the Suburban) station. Southbound called at York Road and King's X Met (what became the Thameslink platforms).

 

[etr221]

There are a number of National Rail stations that, for operating reasons are treated as two separate entities but, for commercial and retail purposes are treated as just one: Abbey Wood, Farringdon, Glasgow Central, Lichfield Trent Valley, Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, London Liverpool Street, London Paddington, London St Pancras (3 separate operating entities), Reading, Retford, Tamworth, Whitechapel.

Can add London Victoria (2), London Bridge (2) and Clapham Junction (4 - a record?), and the DC Lines are split at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushy and Watford Junction.

The stations I listed are operationally separate in a more specific way than those you are quoting - and have to be treated differently in retail systems to ensure that passenger enquiries see them as one station as a consequence.

Your examples can be joined by another 150 or so

But - for the purpose of listing (and hence counting) stations - are they (either SargeNpton's or zwk500's list) regarded as one station or two (or more)? And (to go back to my origianal question) why is that your answer? And if TfL is involved (either directly in the form of LU, DLR or Tramslink, or through one of its NR operations (LO or EL)), does it make a difference (and if so when/why)?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Wigan is odd, two stations almost opposite each other across the street, virtually serving the same line in effect.

Could argue that the platforms at Wallgate are closer to North Western than Piccadilly 1 and 14! With an aireal walkway and renumbering of platforms I think it could be justified as one station, simply Wigan.

Can't think of any other station like that, although didn't Kings X have a through line attached to it once?

Yes, it did. Platform 16 was on the line from Moorgate via the "Hotel Curve"

Up trains (towards Moorgate) used York Road platform. (Note the unique short-framed non-corridor Mark 1 hauled stock built for that line: long-framed stock wouldn't fit the curves, which is why high-density dmus couldn't go to Moorgate)

which had a separate entrance on the street of that name

My 1950 ABC guide shows northbound trains from Moorgate stopping in the main (actually the Suburban) station. Southbound called at York Road and King's X Met (what became the Thameslink platforms).

I don't think they ever called at both. Kings Cross Thameslink was re-opened for the Bed-Pan services.

 

[etr221]

Yes, it did. Platform 16 was on the line from Moorgate via the "Hotel Curve"

That platform was used by down (northbound) GN trains from Moorgate (which, certainly by the 1960s, did not stop at Kings Cross (Met)

Up trains (towards Moorgate) used York Road platform. (Note the unique short-framed non-corridor Mark 1 hauled stock built for that line: long-framed stock wouldn't fit the curves, which is why high-density dmus couldn't go to Moorgate) which had a separate entrance on the street of that name

I don't think they ever called at both. Kings Cross Thameslink was re-opened for the Bed-Pan services.

Up GN trains to Moorgate were shown in 1960s timetables as stopping at both York Road and Kings Cross (Met)

Midland trains to Moorgate stopped at Kings Cross (Met) in both directions.

GN use of Widened Lines to Moorgate ended in 1977; Midland services ceased in 1979, to facilitate electrification (25kV ac) as part of Midland Suburban electrification, which included transfer of the Widened Lines (including Kings Cross (Met) - which had been the last LT station not served by electric trains) to BR, reopened 1983, with K C (Met) now K C Midland City Line (later Thameslink).

The non corridor Mark 1 stock for the Eastern and LM Regions were all short underframed (Western and Southern Regions were long underframe); some of the LM ones were 'Metrogauge' (repositioned ventilators and modified periscopes to be slightly lower) to work through to Moorgate; ER ones were normal and ok for their link)

 

[D365]

In South Yorkshire, Rotherham Central is one station (main line trains and Supertram use the same extended platforms) but Supertram has a Sheffield Station stop which is separate from Sheffield Midland main line station.

More crucially, I’d argue that the tram-trains use mainline tracks in Rotherham, which they don’t in Sheffield.

 

[plugwash]

[QUOTE="zwk500, post: 6662856, member: 76004"
They serve quite different lines tbf - Wigan NW is on the London-Scotland line and Wigan Wallgate is on the Manchester-Southport line. Although yes there is a fair amount of overlap possible.
[/QUOTE]
In practice Wallgate and platforms 1 and 3 at North western (platform 2 no longer has track) mostly serve the line from Bolton/Atherton while platforms 4-6 at North western serve the WCML.

There is a route from Wallgate and 1/3 at north western to/from the southern WCML and a route from 1 at north western to the Northern WCML but they aren't used a great deal.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In practice Wallgate and platforms 1 and 3 at North western (platform 2 no longer has track) mostly serve the line from Bolton/Atherton while platforms 4-6 at North western serve the WCML.

There is a route from Wallgate and 1/3 at north western to/from the southern WCML and a route from 1 at north western to the Northern WCML but they aren't used a great deal.

Platform 3 is used by the peak time Wigan-Manc via Eccles, those platforms are only used towards Ince 1tpd, from Hindley 4tpd, and Sundays for Stalybridge trains.

The Leeds - Wigan trains haven't used North Western since Dec 22

 

[vic-rijrode]

Can the DC lines stations from Queens Park to Harrow really be counted in both NR and LU lists? - after all, their services not only share a station, but stop at the same platforms.

Maybe it is the platforms on the AC slow lines that are being counted in the NR list? I'm not sure they are still used, but I certainly used them many years ago when commuting from north of Watford Junction to change on to the Bakerloo line.

 

[etr221]

Can the DC lines stations from Queens Park to Harrow really be counted in both NR and LU lists? - after all, their services not only share a station, but stop at the same platforms.

Maybe it is the platforms on the AC slow lines that are being counted in the NR list? I'm not sure they are still used, but I certainly used them many years ago when commuting from north of Watford Junction to change on to the Bakerloo line.

All those DC line stations are in both lists, along with many others. While many of those on both lists should be excluded when coming up with a combined total, the issue is which: and it is to come up with an answer (hopefully definitive) to that (also whether there are any entries on either list that should excluded or doubled up), that I raised this topic...

 

[Bevan Price]

It is a myth that full length coaches could not be used on any parts of the widened lines. I went from Finsbury Park to Brighton and back on a Sunday excursion in the 1960s, and it was all main line (Gresley or Thompson) corridor stock; loco was a Class 24 (D5052). Route was via York Road and widened lines, emerging near Blackfriars, and then via East Croydon to Brighton.

 

[urbophile]

the Paddingtons have no behind-the-barrier link, though the connection can be made entirely within Paddington mainline station

On that logic, Liverpool South Parkway is two stations. Two gatelines separated by the concourse.
Does platform numbering come into it? I couldn't swear to it, but I seem to think the District and Bakerloo platforms are 1 to 4, while the H & C platform numbers carry on from the main station (so 15/16 or thereabouts). But I haven't been there recently and never noted the numbers when I was. (Parkway is 1-4 on the main line side, 5-6 Merseyrail).

 

[D6130]

It is a myth that full length coaches could not be used on any parts of the widened lines. I went from Finsbury Park to Brighton and back on a Sunday excursion in the 1960s, and it was all main line (Gresley or Thompson) corridor stock; loco was a Class 24 (D5052). Route was via York Road and widened lines, emerging near Blackfriars, and then via East Croydon to Brighton.

Maybe the restriction was only between Farringdon and Moorgate?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Can add London Victoria (2), London Bridge (2) and Clapham Junction (4 - a record?), and the DC Lines are split at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushy and Watford Junction.

Effectively operates as two separate stations but Brighton (or Sussex/Central) side trains do use platform 8, which is technically on the Chatham (or Kent/Eastern) side, I think.

They serve quite different lines tbf - Wigan NW is on the London-Scotland line and Wigan Wallgate is on the Manchester-Southport line. Although yes there is a fair amount of overlap possible.

Lots of it is tied up in commercial history - even after all this time. Although comparing Platform 1 to 14 to Wigan is hardly fair - it'd be the gap between 12 and 13 at Piccadilly you should be comparing.

King's X had through lines as part of the York Road station and then the King's Cross Thameslink platforms for a while. Ebbsfleet has platforms 5/6 quite some distance away from the main station as they curve over to join the classic network just east of Northfleet.

But surely the KX T/L platforms, along Pentonville Road, were used after the KX curve onto the City Widened Lines was severed, and the renewed post-electrification through running to the CWL only happened to/from St Pancras? (Even though that station was called KX Thameslink, it was indisputably a separate station from the main KX.)

On that logic, Liverpool South Parkway is two stations. Two gatelines separated by the concourse.
Does platform numbering come into it? I couldn't swear to it, but I seem to think the District and Bakerloo platforms are 1 to 4, while the H & C platform numbers carry on from the main station (so 15/16 or thereabouts). But I haven't been there recently and never noted the numbers when I was. (Parkway is 1-4 on the main line side, 5-6 Merseyrail).

The Liverpool case is two gatelines to leave one station; the Paddington Underground situating I referred to is gatelines on opposite sides of the concourse to enter the two different Underground statins which share a name... Not the same thing at all.

Yes, the H&C/Circle platforms on the Hammersmith route, parallel to the main line, are numbered continuously with the mainline platforms - after all, they historically wre part of the mainline service - feeding the mainline into the first underground route.

Maybe the restriction was only between Farringdon and Moorgate?

If there wasn't a restriction from KX to the CWL (which I thought there was), then maybe it wasn't from Farringdon onwards (unlikely) but on the original Midland access to the CWL. Though I'm pretty sure the curves from KX were the tighter ones than the ones from StP.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If there wasn't a restriction from KX to the CWL (which I thought there was), then maybe it wasn't from Farringdon onwards (unlikely) but on the original Midland access to the CWL. Though I'm pretty sure the curves from KX were the tighter ones than the ones from StP.

Could the short-frame hauled stock (and the use of Class 106 dmus rather than suburban types like the Class 116) have been due to short platforms rather than tight curves? After all, that is aparently the reason for the Class 810s being 23m rather than 26m, and also behind the use of short frames for the first seven Hastings diesel units (class 201) - the underframes were originally intended for hauled stock, which required space at the London termini for locomotives, and only later was the order changed to DEMUs

 

[Deafdoggie]

The Liverpool case is two gatelines to leave one station; the Paddington Underground situating I referred to is gatelines on opposite sides of the concourse to enter the two different Underground statins which share a name... Not the same thing at all.

Sorry for being a bit thick here, but I don't understand the difference.

I know Liverpool South Parkway & to get from Platform 1 to 6 you'd have to go out of a ticket barrier and then in again at another ticket barrier. You can't get from 1-4 to 5-6 (and vice versa!) without having to use two ticket barrier lines.

I don't know Paddington as well, but isn't the same true at Paddington? Or are you saying there's another difference too which is what I've missed?

(Obviously there isn't a ticket barrier at all on platform 1, but let's not go there!)

 

[urbophile]

Sorry for being a bit thick here, but I don't understand the difference.

I know Liverpool South Parkway & to get from Platform 1 to 6 you'd have to go out of a ticket barrier and then in again at another ticket barrier. You can't get from 1-4 to 5-6 (and vice versa!) without having to use two ticket barrier lines.

I don't know Paddington as well, but isn't the same true at Paddington? Or are you saying there's another difference too which is what I've missed?

(Obviously there isn't a ticket barrier at all on platform 1, but let's not go there!)

I think the only possible difference in the case of Paddington (except for it being a much larger station) might be that the LU platforms are de facto separate stations because they are managed by a separate operator. Since no-one has suggested that a Network Rail station served by more than one TOC should for that reason be counted as more than one, I suppose LSP is one station. Though Merseyrail is to all intents and purposes a separate network, in the same way as (though with less interworking than) LU, and in the future may be responsible for its own infrastructure and no longer Network Rail.

 

[SargeNpton]

But - for the purpose of listing (and hence counting) stations - are they (either SargeNpton's or zwk500's list) regarded as one station or two (or more)? And (to go back to my origianal question) why is that your answer? And if TfL is involved (either directly in the form of LU, DLR or Tramslink, or through one of its NR operations (LO or EL)), does it make a difference (and if so when/why)?

For National Rail retailing purposes, all the stations I mentioned are treated as a single entity.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the only possible difference in the case of Paddington (except for it being a much larger station) might be that the LU platforms are de facto separate stations because they are managed by a separate operator.

Paddington changed slightly a few years ago, before the new expanded H&C canal side entrance and its dedicated gateline were built, the LU H&C and GW suburban platforms were behind a common barrier line and shared the adjacent footbridge for a few years. But as originally built there were four through platforms on that side of the station with tracks that were mostly linked to the GW west of the station, and it was all a far more integrated layout. But now they’ve achieved both a completely independent station building with its own gateline and completely separated tracks. So I’d agree Paddington is now separate, but more historically it was shared.

 

[urbophile]

I'm glad that this thread is labelled Trivia, so that I can indulge in nitpicking. Visually the H&C and mainline platforms at Paddington are more integrated: even if there are no through connecting lines any more, the platforms of the former are alongside the latter, and it's only the name board roundels that show it is distinct. Whereas Liverpool South Parkway consists of two separate stations, with separate gatelines, connected by a concourse. The name boards by contrast, on both sides of the station, are all in standard Merseyrail form.

 

[xotGD]

How about Newcastle Central/Central Station? I'd say two.

But then what about Heworth aand Sunderland?

 

[busesrusuk]

How about Canary Wharf - 3 sperate stations (DLR, Jubilee Line & Elizabeth Line)?

 

[47550]

Platform 3 at Manchester Victoria (platform 11 before the station was rebuilt) shared a platform with the old Exchange station giving the unusual situation of one platform being in two stations.

 

[vic-rijrode]

How about Newcastle Central/Central Station? I'd say two.

But then what about Heworth aand Sunderland?

Heworth Network Rail platforms have an entirely separate entrance/exit to that for the Metro platforms - 2 stations?

Sunderland's "4" platforms (really 2 long ones) share both their entrances/exits - 1 station?