TRIVIA: Junctions where two, four track lines diverge

[Rob F]

The image of Crow Nest Junction at this link:

https://signalbox.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/crownestjcJWFSv-300x205.jpg

shows a four track railway splitting into two, four track railways. I find the symmetry of it strangely attractive! How many other junctions around the country can we think of with the same layout, either in the past or in the present day?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does the weblink quoted work correctly?

 

[dosxuk]

Yes, but only if you access it from the signalbox.org website directly (or have done previously). It's hot link protection to stop people ripping content without attribution. You can see the actual image on the page here - https://signalbox.org/branch-lines/crow-nest-junction-then-and-now/ - including a clickable larger version.

 

[Rob F]

Apologies, I wasn’t aware of that.

 

[geoffk]

The signalbox has gone now, hasn't it? I stood on the bridge a few years ago but didn't realise the line to Lostock/Bolton was also four tracks.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Crow Nest Junction certainly doesn't seem to fit the OP's criteria any more. Two lines ('Up Hindley' and 'Down Hindley') towards/from Wigan Wallgate split at Crow Nest Junction. Two lines then head off towards/from Westhoughton (continuation of the 'Up Hindley' and 'Down Hindley') and another two lines towards/from Atherton ('Up Atherton' and 'Down Atherton').

So, when were there last four track lines in the area?

 

[30907]

Crow Nest Junction certainly doesn't seem to fit the OP's criteria any more. Two lines ('Up Hindley' and 'Down Hindley') towards/from Wigan Wallgate split at Crow Nest Junction. Two lines then head off towards/from Westhoughton (continuation of the 'Up Hindley' and 'Down Hindley') and another two lines towards/from Atherton ('Up Atherton' and 'Down Atherton').

So, when were there last four track lines in the area?

According to the linked article, some time prior to 1972.

Dr Days Junction (Bristol) was 4 and 4 tracks in steam days, with the other two ends of the triangle having more complex layouts but without the 4+4 capability.

Newcastle East Junction also comes to mind, though I am fairly certain the High Level Bridge route was never more than 3 track

Windmill Bridge Junction (Croydon) was and is the divergence of two four track routes, but the layout involves flyovers so doesn't have the elegance of those.

 

[steamybrian]

Around London -
Clapham Junction where three x four tracks diverge westwards to Wandsworth Town, Earlsfield and Wandsworth Common,
Windmill Bridge Junction has 4 tracks towards Victoria and 4 towards London Bridge.
Just Outside London Bridge (Blue Anchor ?) There is 4 towards New Cross Gate and 6 towards North Kent East Jn
Bickley Jn - there 4 towards St Mary Cray and 4 towards Petts Wood Jn

 

[CAF397]

Bit of a stretch is Whitehall West Jn just outside Leeds.

4 lines towards Armley Jn and 4 lines technically towards Copley Hill East & West Jns.

I say technically, because you can get to the Up Doncaster from the Up Huddersfield, so 4 lines one way = 4 lines the other way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Around London -
Clapham Junction where three x four tracks diverge westwards to Wandsworth Town, Earlsfield and Wandsworth Common,
Windmill Bridge Junction has 4 tracks towards Victoria and 4 towards London Bridge.
Just Outside London Bridge (Blue Anchor ?) There is 4 towards New Cross Gate and 6 towards North Kent East Jn
Bickley Jn - there 4 towards St Mary Cray and 4 towards Petts Wood Jn

That’s not quite the same, because, (and simplified, ignoring the WLL/SLL connections), it’s effectively 3 independent 4 track railways running in parallel. Under all normal circumstances trains arrive and depart on the same groups of lines. Even the 7 or 8 tracks between Waterloo and Clapham operate independently for most of the distance, as Windsors and Mains.

 

[30907]

Around London -
Just Outside London Bridge (Blue Anchor ?) There is 4 towards New Cross Gate and 6 towards North Kent East Jn
Bickley Jn - there 4 towards St Mary Cray and 4 towards Petts Wood Jn

Blue Anchor doesn't fit the OP's criterion (4 tracks becoming 8) but Bickley Jn (and Petts WoodJn too) does.

In fact Bickley Jn is perhaps the nearest current equivalent to Crows Nest Jn, in that all 4 lines diverge in the same direction (unlike Petts Wood Jn) and there are no extraneous tracks or flyovers (as in my earlier suggestion of Windmill Bridge).

 

[zwk500]

Blue Anchor doesn't fit the OP's criterion (4 tracks becoming 8) but Bickley Jn (and Petts WoodJn too) does.

In fact Bickley Jn is perhaps the nearest current equivalent to Crows Nest Jn, in that all 4 lines diverge in the same direction (unlike Petts Wood Jn) and there are no extraneous tracks or flyovers (as in my earlier suggestion of Windmill Bridge).

One that arguably fits the OP's Criterion is Basford Hall Junction - Although the immediate junction is only double-lead, there are 4 Independent lines converging on the junction, merging into the 4-track WCML.

Shortlands Junction fails on the flyovers.

 

[ComUtoR]

Bickley Jn - there 4 towards St Mary Cray and 4 towards Petts Wood Jn

In fact Bickley Jn is perhaps the nearest current equivalent to Crows Nest Jn, in that all 4 lines diverge in the same direction (unlike Petts Wood Jn) and there are no extraneous tracks or flyovers (as in my earlier suggestion of Windmill Bridge).

Bickley Junction is split. What you have is two lines going into a 'fast loop' and the other 4 lines converging into the same junction. Close for sure but I'm not sure it fits the criteria.

 

[zwk500]

Bickley Junction is split. What you have is two lines going into a 'fast loop' and the other 4 lines converging into the same junction. Close for sure but I'm not sure it fits the criteria.

It's split but not by much - you can just about see all 4 turnouts at once on Google Street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.400...4!1sZAkNm4XU738UKbgGGtvdrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[billh]

Stockport Junction, west end of Guide Bridge. The Stockport and OAGB lines both split from 2 lines a short distance from the Junction with the 4 Manchester main lines. This enabled passenger trains to access the main platforms (3,4)or those on the goods lines (1,2)in the station. Not quite all gone now, the single line to Stockport branches off at the end of what was platform 2 and dissappears into the undergrowth, quite a few freights still use this route, as well as the weekly Parliamentary. The OAGB as far as Crowthorn Junction was closed in 1982.

 

[30907]

Bickley Junction is split. What you have is two lines going into a 'fast loop' and the other 4 lines converging into the same junction. Close for sure but I'm not sure it fits the criteria.

True, but it does what the OP specifies.
In fact it has all the functionality of Crows Nest Jn (as in the photo) bar one move: Up Chatham Fast to Slow without blocking Chatham Slows to/from Petts Wood Jn Slow Loops has to be made at St Mary Cray Up Jn, and has been since the 1959 work.

 

[Railsigns]

True, but it does what the OP specifies.
In fact it has all the functionality of Crows Nest Jn (as in the photo) bar one move: Up Chatham Fast to Slow without blocking Chatham Slows to/from Petts Wood Jn Slow Loops has to be made at St Mary Cray Up Jn, and has been since the 1959 work.

The OP referred to the symmetry of the former Crow* Nest Junction layout, which the layout at Bickley Junction lacks.

* singular

 

[scragend]

The signalbox has gone now, hasn't it? I stood on the bridge a few years ago but didn't realise the line to Lostock/Bolton was also four tracks.

It has.

 

[30907]

The OP referred to the symmetry of the former Crow* Nest Junction layout, which the layout at Bickley Junction lacks.

* singular

If the symmetry has to include the Fast to Slow and vv junctions, then I doubt there ever was an identical junction.
If it is simply (as in the title) two four-track lines diverging, then Dr Days Jn was a pretty pure example but there are no exact current equivalents.

Perhaps the OP would care to adjudicate?

 

[zwk500]

If the symmetry has to include the Fast to Slow and vv junctions, then I doubt there ever was an identical junction.
If it is simply (as in the title) two four-track lines diverging, then Dr Days Jn was a pretty pure example but there are no exact current equivalents.

Perhaps the OP would care to adjudicate?

Historically, you also have the Newcastle East Jn, With 4 tracks (at least) towards each of Manors and the High Level Bridge. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/283937951494933751/ Not quite as symmetrical as the Crow Nest example, because of the bay platform lines.

 

[swt_passenger]

Historically, you also have the Newcastle East Jn, With 4 tracks (at least) towards each of Manors and the High Level Bridge. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/283937951494933751/ Not quite as symmetrical as the Crow Nest example, because of the bay platform lines.

There were only ever 3 tracks on the High Level bridge unfortunately, its width was a major constraint on movements before the King Edward bridge opened. The points where two of the tracks merge into one were right alongside the castle keep.

 

[ComUtoR]

Lewisham Junction should give you the desired symmetry.

 

[D6975]

Lewisham Junction should give you the desired symmetry.

But that's 4 to 2x2, not 4 to 2x4.

 

[zwk500]

But that's 4 to 2x2, not 4 to 2x4.

Strictly speaking it's 2x2 to 2x2.

 

[billio]

Manchester Victoria East Junction split four to two fours, with a parallel 4 lines coming from the east-facing bay platforms which merged into the Miles Plating 4, so you could say there was four to two fours in both directions. There is photo in this archive illustrating the layout: Manchester Victoria Nostalgia

 

[APT618S]

Just south of Newcastle, King Edward Bridge South Jn was originally 4 tracks diverging to 2 x 4 tracks.
You had the 2 ECML tracks coming alongside the 2 tracks from Dunston to give 4 tracks.
These split into 4 tracks on the King Edward Bridge and 4 tracks past Gateshead Depot.

Showing search results for: King Edward Bridge Junction

thetransportlibrary.co.uk

Now much simplified.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Heaton Norris Junction was 4 tracks to two lots of four tracks until the Guide Bridge line was reduced to two tracks (and later mostly singled in connection with the construction of the M60). On the main line the fast lines are in the middle whereas the four tracks on the line towards Guide Bridge were two main lines on the west side of the formation and two goods lines on the east side so there were lots of crossovers!

 

[APT618S]

Historically, you also have the Newcastle East Jn, With 4 tracks (at least) towards each of Manors and the High Level Bridge. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/283937951494933751/ Not quite as symmetrical as the Crow Nest example, because of the bay platform lines.

There were only ever 3 tracks on the High Level bridge unfortunately, its width was a major constraint on movements before the King Edward bridge opened. The points where two of the tracks merge into one were right alongside the castle keep.

Newcastle WEST Jn might count as it had 4 tracks from the Station area diverging into 4 tracks onto the King Edward Bridge and 4 tracks towards Carlisle (the original line north of the river).

Newcastle West Junction - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

The 4 station avoiding tracks became 2 just before the junction, you had 1 line from P9/10 (now 3/4) and 1 line from P8 (now 2). These are 4 lines from the station as seen in the above picture under the gantry. However there were also the additional lines from the west facing bay platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

Newcastle WEST Jn might count as it had 4 tracks from the Station area diverging into 4 tracks onto the King Edward Bridge and 4 tracks towards Carlisle (the original line north of the river).

Newcastle West Junction - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

The 4 station avoiding tracks became 2 just before the junction, you had 1 line from P9/10 (now 3/4) and 1 line from P8 (now 2). These are 4 lines from the station as seen in the above picture under the gantry. However there were also the additional lines from the west facing bay platforms.

I think that’s probably correct, since you posted I’ve had a look at my High Level Bridge and Central Station book, it has a track layout from 1893 predating the west junction being built, and it definitely looks as though you can trace the four main running lines from Manors viaduct, right through the station area, and onto the Carlisle line viaduct. Of course there’s a fairly large number of parallel loops and carriage sidings etc between the through lines in the station area itself, so it’s never going to look as neat as the original example…

 

[Sean Emmett]

Holgate Jn York. Just re-watched a Kingfisher DVD of run recorded in the 1980s, and approaching York from the South all is revealed! Much simplified now of course.