Trivia: When did the last loco hauled services operate on normal passenger services from each London termini?

[deltic]

London Euston, Paddington, Kings Cross and Marylebone still have loco hauled services, but when were the last regular loco hauled services from the other London termini excluding HSTs?

 

[Snow1964]

Exeter trains were loco hauled from Waterloo until 159s came into service, think it was 1991 or 1992

Liverpool Street changed from loco hauled to push-pull with loco on Norwich trains around 1989. The Kings Lynn loco hauled were also late 1980s

I am sure someone will know exact dates

 

[uglymonkey]

Yes agree Waterloo on West of England about 1991/92 mainly 47's and 33's? I think. Not sure of anywhere else.

 

[Taunton]

June 1962 for Fenchurch Street, which may have been the first.

Although there are loco hauled trains now, from 1966 when the GC main line closed Marylebone was without loco services for nearly 50 years. Which shows "never say never".

I think for both these two the last loco hauled service was steam.

 

[Snow1964]

There was a newspaper train that ran at about 3am from from London Bridge (Terminus) to Hastings until late 1987 or 1988.

Waterloo had passenger trains with newspaper vans (so not newspaper train) at about 1 or 2am, one went to Bournemouth, the other to Yeovil Junction (might have got destination wrong, but somewhere on that line), think they finished around same year, they were last mixed trains from Waterloo.

The last regular electric loco train with hauled stock from Waterloo was the Weymouth Boat train, which I think finished at end of summer 1987. (73s were used during the 4REP component recovery 1987-89, but they were with TC sets, not complete trains of hauled stock.

 

[deltic]

Were the last passenger loco hauled services from Victoria and London Bridge the East Grinstead services c1983/4?

 

[Siemens Staines]

Yes agree Waterloo on West of England about 1991/92 mainly 47's and 33's? I think. Not sure of anywhere else.

Waterloo was used as the regular London terminus for the Night Riviera in the early days of Eurostar at Waterloo. I don't recall when that finished, and the Night Riviera reverted to Paddington, but Waterloo was still being used in January 1997 which was the only time I used that service.

 

[The exile]

June 1962 for Fenchurch Street, which may have been the first.

Although there are loco hauled trains now, from 1966 when the GC main line closed Marylebone was without loco services for nearly 50 years. Which shows "never say never".

I think for both these two the last loco hauled service was steam.

Marylebone had the odd loco hauled service in the early 90s when the 115s started to fall over.

Were the last passenger loco hauled services from Victoria and London Bridge the East Grinstead services c1983/4?

Gatwick Express from Victoria.

Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Holborn Viaduct and Charing Cross were presumably all in the 1960s.

 

[Taunton]

Were the last passenger loco hauled services from Victoria and London Bridge the East Grinstead services c1983/4?

I think that well before that the loco hauled peak hour services had all been arranged to run from London Bridge. Victoria had become all multiple unit at some point earlier. The first peak 33-hauled train was top-and-tailed in, for each service thereafter the loco which had brought the previous stock in shunted round to become the train loco. It was convenient to have all this at one terminal.

Gatwick Express from Victoria.

An edge case for loco hauled services as in one direction they were always propelled!

 

[Gloster]

The last one out of Fenchurch Street was probably at the end of March 1963 as, according to Jackson’s London’s Termini, the last boat trains were transferred to St Pancras from 1 April.

 

[Magdalia]

Is there a distinction to be drawn here between "proper" loco hauled operation, where the loco is at the front of the train for both arrivals and departures, and trains that have a loco at one end but some sort of driving trailer at the other?

June 1962 for Fenchurch Street, which may have been the first.

What about Charing Cross and Cannon Street? Did these finish with Kent Coast electrification?

Broad Street was May 1969 and Moorgate November 1976.

Liverpool Street changed from loco hauled to push-pull with loco on Norwich trains around 1989. The Kings Lynn loco hauled were also late 1980s

The Cambridge line was May 1990. When did the DBSOs come in on the Norwich line? The class 90s and DVTs finished some time during the Covid restrictions.

 

[StephenHunter]

London Euston, Paddington, Kings Cross and Marylebone still have loco hauled services, but when were the last regular loco hauled services from the other London termini?

Liverpool Street lost their last loco-hauled services on 24 March 2020, the first full day of lockdown meaning no ceremonies were possible.

 

[75A]

I can remember being on the London Bridge (Victoria was being rebuilt) paper trains to Eastbourne in the mid 80's, this was hauled by a shoebox, this carried passengers in a brake second coupled next to the 73 (for heat)

 

[d70g]

Waterloo was used as the regular London terminus for the Night Riviera in the early days of Eurostar at Waterloo. I don't recall when that finished, and the Night Riviera reverted to Paddington, but Waterloo was still being used in January 1997 which was the only time I used that service.

Which route did that take to Waterloo... and why? Seems like an odd one.

 

[Rescars]

What about St Pancras? For the purposes of this thread, are HSTs loco hauled (and pushed)?

 

[Magdalia]

The last one out of Fenchurch Street was probably at the end of March 1963 as, according to Jackson’s London’s Termini, the last boat trains were transferred to St Pancras from 1 April.

Peter Kay's history of the LTSR volume 7 has boat trains transferred from St Pancras to Fenchurch Street in April 1963, not the other way round. At Fenchurch Street the boat trains were the EMUs with luggage vans 313-321.

There were loco hauled boat trains to/from Tilbury after 1962, but weren't they from/to St Pancras not Fenchurch Street? At Fenchurch Street the ecs moves would have been a nightmare.

 

[Snow1964]

What about Charing Cross and Cannon Street? Did these finish with Kent Coast electrification?

Fairly sure the last into Cannon Street were the Hastings trains until they converted to DEMUs about 1958

Holborn Viaduct for daytime passenger trains was probably 1925, but I have vague memory hearing there was some sort of late night (around 4am) services for newspaper printers returning home until late 1950s (when they all started getting cars), but don't know if these were EMUs as night trains were often steam hauled.

Blackfriars had regular freight trains passing through until 1971 when the Snow Hill tunnel closed

 

[Siemens Staines]

Which route did that take to Waterloo... and why? Seems like an odd one.

As per the route now to Ealing Broadway, then via Willesden sidings and Kensington Olympia, as used by the Brighton cross country services at that time, then the spur to Vauxhall as used by Eurostar Waterloo to North Pole ECS trains. It used Waterloo for a while to provide direct connections in to Eurostar services

 

[Trainman40083]

What about St Pancras? For the purposes of this thread, are HSTs loco hauled (and pushed)?

I wondered when that loco hauled train ran. Nottingham to St Pancras then to Derby in the evening. Mostly a 47, but once 45118?

 

[hexagon789]

I wondered when that loco hauled train ran. Nottingham to St Pancras then to Derby in the evening. Mostly a 47, but once 45118?

About 2004 or 2005 for when it finished?

 

[317362]

For what its worth, 86+DBSO on the Norwich line was 1990

 

[Class 800]

What about St Pancras? For the purposes of this thread, are HSTs loco hauled (and pushed)?

I never know what HSTs count as.
If they are counted as loco-hauled it's unusual because there are two Class 43s.
But of course when they came out they were class 253/254 DEMUs which seems a more appropriate description for otherwise fixed-formation sets.
After all 373s have power cars for example, but they are still classed as EMUs.

 

[StephenHunter]

I never know what HSTs count as.
If they are counted as loco-hauled it's unusual because there are two Class 43s.
But of course when they came out they were class 253/254 DEMUs which seems a more appropriate description for otherwise fixed-formation sets.
After all 373s have power cars for example, but they are still classed as EMUs.

RailAdventure have made locomotives out of two Class 43s.

 

[jfollows]

Which route did that take to Waterloo... and why? Seems like an odd one.

West London Line and Acton, attached from the 1995 timetable

 

[The exile]

As per the route now to Ealing Broadway, then via Willesden sidings and Kensington Olympia, as used by the Brighton cross country services at that time, then the spur to Vauxhall as used by Eurostar Waterloo to North Pole ECS trains. It used Waterloo for a while to provide direct connections in to Eurostar services

Didn't it also "conveniently" coincide with the building of the Heathrow spur and associated electrification into Paddington? Not sure which was the actual reason and which the useful "side effect".

 

[Trainman40083]

About 2004 or 2005 for when it finished?

45112 on 8th April 2004 worked the last loco hauled train from St Pancras (HSTS excluded)

 

[The exile]

I never know what HSTs count as.
If they are counted as loco-hauled it's unusual because there are two Class 43s.
But of course when they came out they were class 253/254 DEMUs which seems a more appropriate description for otherwise fixed-formation sets.
After all 373s have power cars for example, but they are still classed as EMUs.

Little doubt about the 373s being MUs as the second coach also has a motor bogie - fed from the power car.
Don't think that a single 43 power car would be capable of hauling anything other than a Mk. III rake on its own without modification - if for no other reason than because even the buffer-fitted ones only had them at the cab end. I believe the Class 41 prototypes had basic cabs at the inner end. Interestingly, although they are listed in the 1974 Ian Allan "Locomotives" book - they are even then clearly described in it as "power cars".

 

[StephenHunter]

45112 on 8th April 2004 worked the last loco hauled train from St Pancras (HSTS excluded)

A Peak was operating in 2004?

 

[hexagon789]

45112 on 8th April 2004 worked the last loco hauled train from St Pancras (HSTS excluded)

Thank you.

Little doubt about the 373s being MUs as the second coach also has a motor bogie - fed from the power car.
Don't think that a single 43 power car would be capable of hauling anything other than a Mk. III rake on its own without modification - if for no other reason than because even the buffer-fitted ones only had them at the cab end. I believe the Class 41 prototypes had basic cabs at the inner end. Interestingly, although they are listed in the 1974 Ian Allan "Locomotives" book - they are even then clearly described in it as "power cars".

GWR power cars have hauled the Night Riviera.

 

[43096]

Don't think that a single 43 power car would be capable of hauling anything other than a Mk. III rake on its own without modification - if for no other reason than because even the buffer-fitted ones only had them at the cab end.

There is nothing preventing a Class 43 power car from hauling any LHCS Mark 1, 2 or 3 vehicle provided a) it is air braked and b) has a buckeye coupler.