TROUBLE WITH TFL

[island]

Welcome to the forum.

First of all there is no need to panic. Whilst I realise this may feel like the worst thing in the world at the moment, it's definitely something you can get through. You are unlikely to lose your job over a single ticket violation. But from this point forward you absolutely must be honest: with us, with TfL, and most important with yourself. We can help you and we help lots of people, but we cannot give you good advice if you do not tell us the whole story, if you change what you tell us, or if you drip-feed information over the course of several days. In particular, if you're "not sure" whether you've lied or not I suggest you really jog your memory and reflect; this incident happened recently so it's hard to forget what has happened.

To get the easy thing out of the way first...

There is also the question of when they should show you the card with the rights on it - mine was shown to me right at the end before getting a receipt for my Oyster card.

This will not make any difference.

Now I have some questions to help me and other forum members help you. Please answer them using the same numbering. If you do not know or remember, say so rather than guessing.

1. At what point in your journey were you stopped? I understand it was at Liverpool Street station, was it at the start or the end of the journey?
2. Was this at the National Rail (upstairs) or TfL (downstairs) part of the station?
3. Please upload a copy/photograph of all paperwork or documents given to you by the inspectors, covering or blocking any personal information.
4. You said that you presented to the inspectors a "plain Oyster card" "under your dad's name". Can you clarify please. Was it a plain Oyster card or did it have a name/photo on?
5. You said you thought your Oyster card had a 16-25 Railcard attached to it. When and where did you ask to have the Railcard discount added to your Oyster card?
6. Did you show the inspector a valid, in-date 16-25 Railcard?
7. Does your father actually work for TfL, and if not, has he ever worked there?
8. You say that you noticed your card had "a heavy discount" but "you never questioned it". Why?
9. How did you continue your journey after you were finished dealing with the inspectors?

 

[Lop]

Welcome to the forum.

First of all there is no need to panic. Whilst I realise this may feel like the worst thing in the world at the moment, it's definitely something you can get through. You are unlikely to lose your job over a single ticket violation. But from this point forward you absolutely must be honest: with us, with TfL, and most important with yourself. We can help you and we help lots of people, but we cannot give you good advice if you do not tell us the whole story, if you change what you tell us, or if you drip-feed information over the course of several days. In particular, if you're "not sure" whether you've lied or not I suggest you really jog your memory and reflect; this incident happened recently so it's hard to forget what has happened.

To get the easy thing out of the way first...

This will not make any difference.

Now I have some questions to help me and other forum members help you. Please answer them using the same numbering. If you do not know or remember, say so rather than guessing.

1. At what point in your journey were you stopped? I understand it was at Liverpool Street station, was it at the start or the end of the journey?
2. Was this at the National Rail (upstairs) or TfL (downstairs) part of the station?
3. Please upload a copy/photograph of all paperwork or documents given to you by the inspectors, covering or blocking any personal information.
4. You said that you presented to the inspectors a "plain Oyster card" "under your dad's name". Can you clarify please. Was it a plain Oyster card or did it have a name/photo on?
5. You said you thought your Oyster card had a 16-25 Railcard attached to it. When and where did you ask to have the Railcard discount added to your Oyster card?
6. Did you show the inspector a valid, in-date 16-25 Railcard?
7. Does your father actually work for TfL, and if not, has he ever worked there?
8. You say that you noticed your card had "a heavy discount" but "you never questioned it". Why?
9. How did you continue your journey after you were finished dealing with the inspectors?

1) at the start of the journey I was stopped
2) TFL downstairs
3) I have not received anything from tfl yet except a receipt to say they took my oyster
4) plain Oyster card - no photo, no name unless you sign into TFL website
5) There should have been no railcard added
6) I did show my valid railcard when asked yes.
7) no history working for tfl
8) as I never used to top it up - my dad always did.
9) using a bank card

 

[island]

Thank you for the quick reply.

For your information, it's not likely that you were being accused of "skipping the barrier"; rather, the barrier will have been programmed to give a visible indicator to the Revenue Control Inspectors (RCIs) when certain types of passes or cards are presented. The cards they're interested in are cards which facilitate free or heavily discounted travel, and they'll ask people – such as you – to show the card and prove you're entitled to use it. In this Cass, you weren't.

Based on what you've said, it sounds like your Oyster card had a "privilege" discount set. This discount of 75% on some or all fares is only for certain members of staff who work on the railway, and their dependents. You weren't entitled to this discount, and you shouldn't have been using the card. As such, your Oyster card wasn't a valid ticket for travel, and you've committed one or more criminal offences.

It seems to me there are two possible reasons why you have a card with this discount set. One is that when you sought to have your Railcard discount attached to your Oyster card, the staff member for some reason set the staff discount instead. The other is that the person who attached the staff discount was complicit and you (or your father) and they illicitly set that discount which you weren't entitled to. Only you know which of these is true (if any), and I'm not asking you to say which it is, because even if you can show it was a mistake by staff, you're still guilty of a strict liability offence of entering a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket, and at the moment we don't need to concern ourselves which what offence is being alleged.

The next step will be for TfL or someone acting on their behalf to write out to you. This will be a letter in the post, to the address you gave to the RCIs at the time. If you didn't give an address, they'll use the registered address on the Oyster. If you lied about your address, you need to sort that out promptly by contacting TfL before things get worse.

The letter will ask you to comment on why you didn't have a valid ticket and will threaten prosecution under one of a number of laws. When you receive the letter, please come back and post an image of it here on this thread, blocking out any personal information, and we will advise you of your next move.

 

[skyhigh]

It seems to me there are two possible reasons why you have a card with this discount set. One is that when you sought to have your Railcard discount attached to your Oyster card, the staff member for some reason set the staff discount instead.

I can't find it now, but there was a thread on here where the OP said they knew that the PRIV discount had been accidentally applied to their Oyster rather than the Railcard they asked for, and asked if it was okay to use. I might be putting 2+2 together and getting 5, but I wonder if it's the same OP?

 

[Lop]

Thank you for the quick reply.

For your information, it's not likely that you were being accused of "skipping the barrier"; rather, the barrier will have been programmed to give a visible indicator to the Revenue Control Inspectors (RCIs) when certain types of passes or cards are presented. The cards they're interested in are cards which facilitate free or heavily discounted travel, and they'll ask people – such as you – to show the card and prove you're entitled to use it. In this Cass, you weren't.

Based on what you've said, it sounds like your Oyster card had a "privilege" discount set. This discount of 75% on some or all fares is only for certain members of staff who work on the railway, and their dependents. You weren't entitled to this discount, and you shouldn't have been using the card. As such, your Oyster card wasn't a valid ticket for travel, and you've committed one or more criminal offences.

It seems to me there are two possible reasons why you have a card with this discount set. One is that when you sought to have your Railcard discount attached to your Oyster card, the staff member for some reason set the staff discount instead. The other is that the person who attached the staff discount was complicit and you (or your father) and they illicitly set that discount which you weren't entitled to. Only you know which of these is true (if any), and I'm not asking you to say which it is, because even if you can show it was a mistake by staff, you're still guilty of a strict liability offence of entering a compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket, and at the moment we don't need to concern ourselves which what offence is being alleged.

The next step will be for TfL or someone acting on their behalf to write out to you. This will be a letter in the post, to the address you gave to the RCIs at the time. If you didn't give an address, they'll use the registered address on the Oyster. If you lied about your address, you need to sort that out promptly by contacting TfL before things get worse.

The letter will ask you to comment on why you didn't have a valid ticket and will threaten prosecution under one of a number of laws. When you receive the letter, please come back and post an image of it here on this thread, blocking out any personal information, and we will advise you of your next move.

Thank you for your help. I had no idea the discount was applied incorrectly when I went to get my card added to the oyster.

Are you allowed to use an oyster under someone else’s name - in my case(not photo card, just plain blue oyster) as I was using it even though it was in my father’s name? The railcard also was mine? So esssentially I had been using the card but he paid for it.

Will they also look into other registered cards on my address

I have provided the correct address and details to the tfl staff - how long would it be till I receive this letter?

I can't find it now, but there was a thread on here where the OP said they knew that the PRIV discount had been accidentally applied to their Oyster rather than the Railcard they asked for, and asked if it was okay to use. I might be putting 2+2 together and getting 5, but I wonder if it's the same OP?

No sorry this happened yesterday.

 

[Haywain]

there was a thread on here where the OP said they knew that the PRIV discount had been accidentally applied to their Oyster rather than the Railcard they asked for,

This one: Wrong discount loaded onto an Oyster

 

[some bloke]

I had this railcard added to this oyster card at a station about 6-12months ago and have been unsure as to why there was a heavy discount ever since, but never questioned it.

Could you please clarify what you mean by a heavy discount?

If the fares charged were about 25% of normal rather than about 66%, was it not obvious that topping up was needed much less than you would expect (even if you didn't look to see what fares had been charged) - is that what you are referring to?

I'm not clear how the part about being unsure fits with it seeming fine.

I thought railcard reduced tfl fair to 30% so it seemed fine.

 

[Lop]

Thank you for your help. I had no idea the discount was applied incorrectly when I went to get my card added to the oyster.

Are you allowed to use an oyster under someone else’s name - in my case(not photo card, just plain blue oyster) as I was using it even though it was in my father’s name? The railcard also was mine? So esssentially I had been using the card but he paid for it.

I have provided the correct address and details to the tfl staff - how long would it be till I receive this letter?


No sorry this happened yesterday.

This one: Wrong discount loaded onto an Oyster

Thanks however not helpful in this case.

 

[Lop]

Could you please clarify what you mean by a heavy discount?

If the fares charged were about 25% of normal rather than about 66%, was it not obvious that topping up was needed much less than you would expect (even if you didn't look to see what fares had been charged) - is that what you are referring to?

I'm not clear how the part about being unsure fits with it seeming fine.

There is no way to check the discount applied unless a member of staff intervenes and checks - I haven’t had a member of staff intervene

The

Thank you for your help. I had no idea the discount was applied incorrectly when I went to get my card added to the oyster.

Are you allowed to use an oyster under someone else’s name - in my case(not photo card, just plain blue oyster) as I was using it even though it was in my father’s name? The railcard also was mine? So esssentially I had been using the card but he paid for it.

Will they also look into other registered cards on my address

I have provided the correct address and details to the tfl staff - how long would it be till I receive this letter?


No sorry this happened yesterday.

They have blocked access to both mine and my father’s Oyster cards.

 

[some bloke]

There is no way to check the discount applied unless a member of staff intervenes and checks - I haven’t had a member of staff intervene

Perhaps I'm being a bit dim - I'm not clear how that answers the questions.

As you thought there was a 70% railcard discount, what do you mean by "unsure as to why there was a heavy discount"? Or do you mean "by 30%" rather than "to 30%"?

 

[TFN]

There is no way to check the discount applied unless a member of staff intervenes and checks - I haven’t had a member of staff intervene

LU ticket machines will tell you what discount is applied when you touch your oyster on it. It shows up in the top right corner.

A railcard discount will say “NR Railcard” while the one you had would probably say “Priv All Rail” or “Priv NR” as the discount applied.

 

[WesternLancer]

If the wrong discount was set by mistake by a TfL staff member then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that a person might keep on using it without questioning why their fares were so low. Not a million miles from buying something in a shop with cash, being given too much change by the shop staff, realising this, but keeping it. Sort of things like that happen all the time in various contexts.

However, I would assume that TfL can look at the Oyster cards history, see exactly when it had the Railcard discount applied, at which station and maybe even by which member of staff that did it (these are all guesses on my part) - that would presumably help in any investigation into this if the OP is claiming it was all a mistake not of the OPs making.

My hunch is that it would be unfair for the passenger to face a penalty due to an error on the part of a member of staff. TfL should ensure staff training to help prevent this happening in such circumstances. I'm sure they claim that they do.

LU ticket machines will tell you what discount is applied when you touch your oyster on it. It shows up in the top right corner.

A railcard discount will say “NR Railcard” while the one you had would probably say “Priv All Rail” or “Priv NR” as the discount applied.

Indeed - but there is no reason why an ordinary member of the public would know what that meant, or necessarily question it.

 

[island]

Thank you for your help. I had no idea the discount was applied incorrectly when I went to get my card added to the oyster.

Are you allowed to use an oyster under someone else’s name - in my case(not photo card, just plain blue oyster) as I was using it even though it was in my father’s name? The railcard also was mine? So esssentially I had been using the card but he paid for it.

A normal Oyster card is transferable if it only has pay as you go credit on it. If it has a discount or Travelcard loaded, it's non-transferable.

Will they also look into other registered cards on my address

Why do you ask?

I have provided the correct address and details to the tfl staff - how long would it be till I receive this letter?

Usually it takes some weeks.

 

[Lop]

I have another oyster card at the home that is now not working either

 

[island]

I have another oyster card at the home that is now not working either

What error code is it giving when you attempt to touch in?

 

[Master29]

A lot of unanswered questions here. Why would you think that the inspectors thought you were fare evading? This indicates you might have known you had a reason yourself for thinking this. You say you gave information you believe may have not been true. Again, why would you say that if you didn't believe you had a reason for saying it? I am guessing your father doesn't know that you are doing this. As Island said at the beginning of this thread maybe you might need to be honest with forum members who are trying to help.

 

[su31]

If the wrong discount was set by mistake by a TfL staff member then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that a person might keep on using it without questioning why their fares were so low. Not a million miles from buying something in a shop with cash, being given too much change by the shop staff, realising this, but keeping it. Sort of things like that happen all the time in various contexts.

However, I would assume that TfL can look at the Oyster cards history, see exactly when it had the Railcard discount applied, at which station and maybe even by which member of staff that did it (these are all guesses on my part) - that would presumably help in any investigation into this if the OP is claiming it was all a mistake not of the OPs making.

TfL regularly monitor Oyster cards with the incorrect discount set (usually identified by a corresponding incorrect PTAC or photocard number) and in these circumstances will blacklist the Oyster card so it is automatically blocked when touched onto an Oyster card reader on a London bus or at a station within the Oyster system.

 

[furlong]

This sort of mistake does happen. A few years ago, my Oyster card was given a staff discount instead of a NR discount. The person doing it was so quick and standing fully in front of the machine so I wasn't able to see, and you're just handed back your card and expected to go on your way. When I checked at a machine later before making my first journey I discovered the error (because I knew where to look and had some idea of what the codes mean) and another employee corrected it for me - after first checking the journey history to confirm that I had not actually made any journeys with the incorrect discount.

 

[some bloke]

my Oyster card was given a staff discount instead of a NR discount.

I'd be tempted to tell TfL, "there are at least two other reports of this happening" and link to these posts.

If anyone knows relevant details of the process which could help explain how the errors occur, that might be useful.

 

[HSP 2]

I'd be tempted to tell TfL, "there are at least two other reports of this happening" and link to these posts.

If anyone knows relevant details of the process which could help explain how the errors occur, that might be useful.

They are very good points. If it has shown on here twice how many more people could it possibly happen to.

 

[WesternLancer]

They are very good points. If it has shown on here twice how many more people could it possibly happen to.

hardly any according to post #18 it would seem.....as computers prevent the problem (tell sub postmasters that....)

Tho if we have seen 2 make it to this forum I think we can actually believe it's plausibly more common than it might be presumed however.

 

[furlong]

The general cause would be human error because the system requires the staff to understand all the codes instead of expanding each of them out with a proper description of what they are. The system could have prompted the employee with the things to check in each case but it doesn't, presumably to save money on the software development cost.

 

[RJ]

TfL regularly monitor Oyster cards with the incorrect discount set (usually identified by a corresponding incorrect PTAC or photocard number) and in these circumstances will blacklist the Oyster card so it is automatically blocked when touched onto an Oyster card reader on a London bus or at a station within the Oyster system.

Sometimes they only remove incorrect discounts - there are some people who repeatedly get the wrong discount loaded after removal, bit of a futile exercise as it’s actively monitored and easy to detect!

 

[Lop]

Hi all, thanks for your responses. I have received a letter asking me to explain the situation further and that the facts of the case are being considered.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all, thanks for your responses. I have received a letter asking me to explain the situation further and that the facts of the case are being considered.

You should be very careful what you say.

Important to the investigators will be the lies you can or can’t remember telling when interviewed under caution. If you told them any untruths this will undermine any defence you have.

Do post a draft when you can and we can look over it.

 

[Lop]

Please advise me as to what information I should add

 

[30907]

We don't yet have enough information to help you.

Please upload an image of the letter (personal details hidden) as it will help us understand what you are being accused of.

From what you have said, AIUI:
1. You were using an Oyster card registered to your father (that's OK if it's only used as PAYG, and doesn't have a Travelcard attached.)
2. It didn't have a Railcard discount added to it (reply #5 in post 5 )
3. You went to get your Railcard added to the Oyster (your post 6) - what happened at that stage? Did the process succeed, did the staff member comment?*
4. But it has a 75% discount on it, which neither of you are entitled to.
5. You have another card which has been blocked - is this also registered to your father? And why were you not using it?

* when you reply to TfL you should tell them when and where this happened.