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Trying To Find Out Information About Some Very Early Trevithick-1 Locos

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Jonathan1990

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Not the original game. In Railroad Tycoon 2 you start off in about 1805 with a really slow loco known as a Trevithick-1 before Stephenson's Rocket comes along in 1829. This must have been one of the first locos ever. Apparently they did exist in real life from 1804. If it's the one I'm thinking of there is a replica at Beamish Museum.
 
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There used to be a full-size replica loco in the waiting area at Telford Central. I believe it was moved to a community school about a decade ago and I don't know what has happened to it since then. Back in the day, it was something to admire whilst waiting for the next Wrexham and Shropshire service to Marylebone.
 

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Worth noting that the original Pen-y-Darren 'locomotive' used in the 1804 demonstration had been adapted from a stationary steam hammer, albeit one with a Trevithick high pressure boiler, rather than being designed for the purpose.

(Hence the fact that the controls were on the front and had to be operated by someone walking ahead. There was no 'footplate'. Trevithick's first purpose-designed 'locomotives' were for road use.)

But as randyripley says, details generally are very unclear from that far-off era.
 

StKeverne1497

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I work at the National Waterfront Museum, Swansea where we host a 1980s recreation of the Penydarren locomotive and run it, usually three or four times a year (going to be a bit difficult now they've banned us from buying coal) on a very short section of track. It was built partly from a contemporary painting, but also with reference to the plans for an engine (that if I remember correctly was never actually built) designed for Abraham Darby's Coalbrookdale ironworks. There is a conjectural model of that at Blists Hill Museum. Notable is that our model has controls on the same side as the firebox, so more easily accessible when driving. The cylinder is at the "front" of the engine so doesn't risk knocking the driver's head off - there are a couple of pictures at the link above and more at this link to our online collection. There are probably more if you perform your own search.

One of our senior conservators gave an hour-long online talk about the engine a couple of months ago. I was expecting to find it in our YouTube archive, but there's no sign of it. If there are specific questions I can see what our records have to say, and ask the conservator in person if necessary.
 
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O L Leigh

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As has been alluded to above there were a number of early locomotives from a variety of builders, but there were two early locomotives built to designs by Richard Trevithick. The first was the Coalbrookdale locomotive of 1802 and then the Pen-y-Darren locomotive of 1804, both of which have been lost to posterity but have had working replicas built in recent decades.

The Coalbrookdale locomotive was a bit clumsily laid out with the driving controls and firebox door at the same end as the piston and motion, which made operating it hazardous. The Pen-y-Darren locomotive partially corrected this design blunder by turning the boiler around and having the piston and motion at the opposite end to the driving controls.

Given the lack of original historical sources for these locomotives, it’s difficult to say for certain how they were operated. Both modern replicas use a form of tender that carries a driving position (among other things). The lack of any such feature from the pictorial sources that exist does not necessarily mean that the driver had to walk ahead of the loco or behind it. Indeed, the height at which the driving controls appear to be set would suggest that this would have been impossible. I also believe that this reflects the contemporary fashion for just depicting the mechanical portion of the machine shorn of any extraneous details, which is why any tender or other wagon used with these locomotives would not have been shown. Firing the locomotives would almost certainly have been done at a stand.

How much use these locomotives actually got is open to discussion. Certainly both were used as demonstrators but probably did very little actual work. In both instances they were found to be a bit too heavy and would break the plateways on which they ran. The fate of the Coalbrookdale locomotive is not known for certain, but the Pen-y-Darren locomotive was converted into a stationary engine.

**EDIT**

The Beamish Museum doesn't have a replica Trevithick locomotive. Their fleet consists of replicas of Puffing Billy (1813) and Steam Elephant (1815). The Coalbrookdale replica is at Blists Hill Victorian Village near Telford and the Pen-y-Darren replica at the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea.

It was built partly from a contemporary painting, but also with reference to the plans for an engine (that if I remember correctly was never actually built) designed for Abraham Darby's Coalbrookdale ironworks. There is a conjectural model of that at Blists Hill Museum.

I notice that you call into question the existence of the original Coalbrookdale locomotive, which is an assertion that I'm not sure the literature supports. There is mention of this locomotive being implicated in the death of a company workman on the Wikipedia page which references an article on Shropshire's Railways in a Shropshire County Council publication of 1980. Had it not been built such an incident could not have occurred. Certainly there aren't many historical sources, but then, apart from Homfray/Crawshay wager, there isn't much about the Pen-y-Darren locomotive either.
 
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StKeverne1497

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I notice that you call into question the existence of the original Coalbrookdale locomotive, which is an assertion that I'm not sure the literature supports. There is mention of this locomotive being implicated in the death of a company workman on the Wikipedia page which references an article on Shropshire's Railways in a Shropshire County Council publication of 1980. Had it not been built such an incident could not have occurred. Certainly there aren't many historical sources, but then, apart from Homfray/Crawshay wager, there isn't much about the Pen-y-Darren locomotive either.
You have quoted a Wikipedia article which quotes an article in a 1980 collection for Shropshire County Council which no longer seems to be in print so we do not know where the article's author - said to be John Denton - obtained his information. It might be worth seeking out this article or its author if further clarification is required.

I've just had a quick look at the start of the video talk I mentioned, and our senior curator says: (bits in [square brackets] are my paraphrasings)
Trevithick had built an experimental road locomotive in Cornwall in 1801 and another one in London in 1803 and had started building a tramroad locomotive in Shropshire in 1802 - 1803 although there is no firm evidence that this one was ever completed or ran.
Regarding the conjectural reconstruction we have, built in the 1980s she says:
Whilst the key dimensions of the Penydarren were known - boiler diameter and length, the diameter and stroke of the piston, the wheel gauge, the weight and the distance travelled with each stroke - little archival information survived on the detail of its appearance. However, general arrangement drawings survive for two of Trevithick's other locomotives.
The first is a famous drawing dated 1803 by engineer John Llewellyn, captioned as "the Tram Engine". This was for a very long period presumed to represent the Penydarren locomotive, but from the 1950s onwards was recognised as being incompatible with the known dimensions of the locomotive and with the gauge of the tramroad. Thereafter it was regarded as representing the Shropshire locomotive of 1802 to 3. More recently it has been reinterpreted as likely pertaining to an unbuilt design for a locomotive somewhere in South Wales, most likely Tredegar.
There's also two undated drawings of what is captioned "the Wagon Engine" and these are usually regarded as representing Trevithick's Gateshead locomotive of 1805.
There are only three other depictions of Trevithick's locomotives, all of which pertain to his 1808 London locomotive [presumably the Catch Me Who Can] which is less immediately relevant to the Penydarren. All other depictions of his locomotives are not contemporary and really cannot be relied upon. Close examination shows that most of them derive from the 1803 drawing, with a few from the 1805 or 1808 ones.
The decision was made to place [the museum's] conjectural reconstruction of the Penydarren between [the 1803 and 1805 drawings] but embodying all the known physical dimensions of the original locomotive. A number of aspects... had to be based on [Trevithick's] stationary engines because he did tend to repeat the same design elements across large numbers of the engines that he produced. The museum's locomotive as finally designed and built was thus less of a replica and far more of an exercise in experimental historical engineering design and it for this reason the museum terms the locomotive as it exists to be a conjectural reconstruction and not an exact replica - there are simply too many unknowns associated with the original.
Phew! There's lots more in the talk, but I really shouldn't be doing it now. Apologies if you've read an incomplete version of this posting - it somehow posted itself a couple of paragraphs ago, before I had finished.

Edit

I've just found a transcription from the April 1975 issue of the Industrial Railway Society's magazine which discusses much of the evidence, the drawings and has quotes from the letter. It predates the museum's own research (started in 1978) but seems to agree in large part with the transcriptions I have made above.
 
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O L Leigh

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You have quoted a Wikipedia article which quotes an article in a 1980 collection for Shropshire County Council which no longer seems to be in print so we do not know where the article's author - said to be John Denton - obtained his information. It might be worth seeking out this article or its author if further clarification is required.

Yes, definitely. I have been very careful to reference my source so that readers can judge for themselves and, if sufficiently interested, carry out further research.
 

StKeverne1497

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Yes, definitely. I have been very careful to reference my source so that readers can judge for themselves and, if sufficiently interested, carry out further research.
The article referenced by Wikipedia was written in or around 1980, so long, long after the events in question. If the article's author has direct reference to a contemporary newspaper where the death was recorded, or a death certificate or a coroner's report or even a mention in one of the many letters that Trevithick wrote during that period then that's fine, but "Wikipedia claims there was an article written in 1980 which says so", when I've not been able to turn up a copy of that article probably doesn't trump the research by our senior curator who states "there is no firm evidence that this one was ever completed or ran." though I will admit that Merthyr has a vested interest in claiming to be ahead of Coalbrookdale in at least one thing!

I dare say a bit of research through the local archives could prove enlightening, but that's the sort of thing retired people do for a hobby and I'm not quite that unbusy yet! :smile:
 

O L Leigh

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The article referenced by Wikipedia was written in or around 1980, so long, long after the events in question. If the article's author has direct reference to a contemporary newspaper where the death was recorded, or a death certificate or a coroner's report or even a mention in one of the many letters that Trevithick wrote during that period then that's fine, but "Wikipedia claims there was an article written in 1980 which says so", when I've not been able to turn up a copy of that article probably doesn't trump the research by our senior curator who states "there is no firm evidence that this one was ever completed or ran." though I will admit that Merthyr has a vested interest in claiming to be ahead of Coalbrookdale in at least one thing!

Ouch!!

My mention of John Denton's article was not to suggest that Wikipedia was the font of all knowledge, nor that your senior curator is wrong, but to give a starting point to discover just what source he quotes and whether or not this gives any further evidence for or against the existence of a locomotive at Coalbrookdale. If it leads up a blind alley then so be it, as I have no interest one way or the other. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry claims to have seen something that might help to corroborate it's existence, which was all I wanted to mention.
 

StKeverne1497

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Sorry, didn't mean to make you wince.

On the whole Wikipedia is fairly good these days, but it can be a little superficial sometimes.

As I said, Merthyr - and indeed the museum I work for - has a kind of vested interest in the Coalbrookdale engine not being the first, but I don't think our curator would say "there's no evidence" if there actually was 8-)

Being in Swansea we also have that shoulder-chip about the Mumbles Railway being the first to carry paying passengers, but of course the start of the railways to many people is actually the Stockton & Darlington.
 

O L Leigh

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On the whole Wikipedia is fairly good these days, but it can be a little superficial sometimes.

I don't disagree. I'm certainly wary of things that are not supported by some source or other, as people do tend to make up all sorts of rubbish.

As I said, Merthyr - and indeed the museum I work for - has a kind of vested interest in the Coalbrookdale engine not being the first, but I don't think our curator would say "there's no evidence" if there actually was 8-)

Being in Swansea we also have that shoulder-chip about the Mumbles Railway being the first to carry paying passengers, but of course the start of the railways to many people is actually the Stockton & Darlington.

I think that this sort of cross-border banter can be quite fun provided that it doesn't get out of hand. Whoever had the first locomotive I think we can agree that the technology and design that made it possible originated with an English inventor. ;)

I've been dipping in and out of the Life of Richard Trevithick, which I'm sure you will be aware of. He strikes me as being far more interested in the industrial applications of his stationary engines than in any novel uses, as even the Pen-y-Darren locomotive gets barely a mention*. It might be tempting to look back now across two centuries of railway history and think that the first ever locomotive must surely have been recorded as it must have been a momentous occasion, but the earliest experiments were surely underwhelming and not at all portentous. As a consequence I can see why evidence of these very early locomotives is scarce to the point where their existence is almost unproveable.

* Having sampled some of Trevithick's writings, my own suspicion (which is entirely non-scientific nor historically rigourous) is that the Pen-y-Darren locomotive only got as much coverage because it was the subject of a bet by which Trevithick could demonstrate the superiority of his inventions. An awful lot of his letters appear to be concerned with establishing and defending his own reputation and that of his engines when compared to his main rivals, Watt and Boulton. That he was experimenting with steam locomotion alone and without any direct competition makes me wonder to what extent he considered it to be little more than an interesting diversion and therefore not really worth chronicling. Even the slightly later Catch me Who Can of 1808 failed to raise much of a mention.
 

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A couple of observations, having done quite a lot of reading around this subject during lockdown (but I make no claim to be a historian or academic researcher):

Much of the interest in 'mobile' steam engines around 1800 was actually for use on boats, where weight and size constraints were less.

Quite a lot of surviving 'designs' from that time seem to have been done for patent application purposes rather than actually building things. To reduce the risk of copying or piracy of ideas certain features were often omitted or deliberately slightly misrepresented.

Coalbrookdale was undoubtedly a significant influence on very early metallurgy, steam engine (not necessarily locomotive) and waggonway development but various factors made it a rather unsuitable cradle. Land movement tended to be very short distance, the local waggonway gauge was rather smaller and gradients rather steeper around the sides of the Severn Gorge. So horses could easily pull small waggons, it was very hard to 'miniaturise' a steam engine of the time, there was little economy of scale from longer distance rail movement and local canals already existed.

South Wales offered rather longer distances, had adopted the Benjamin Outram 4' 2" gauge for waggonways and had applied modest gradients.

The North East had had wider gauges, longer distances and cleverly engineered waggonways since somewhat earlier but still used wooden rails and was actually slower off the mark in iron and steel manufacture.

Industrialists like Samuel Homfray (who had interests in turnpikes, canals and waggonways as well as metal production in South Wales) did far more to generally 'push' early railway development than Trevithick.

(All 'IMHO'.)
 

UrieS15

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I've been dipping in and out of the Life of Richard Trevithick, which I'm sure you will be aware of. He strikes me as being far more interested in the industrial applications of his stationary engines than in any novel uses, as even the Pen-y-Darren locomotive gets barely a mention*. It might be tempting to look back now across two centuries of railway history and think that the first ever locomotive must surely have been recorded as it must have been a momentous occasion, but the earliest experiments were surely underwhelming and not at all portentous. As a consequence I can see why evidence of these very early locomotives is scarce to the point where their existence is almost unproveable.
The early experiments may have been underwhelming to those involved and their paymasters but Trevithick's early efforts at road locomotion made sufficient of an impression on the local populace to create the folk song 'Going up Camborne Hill coming down', so one shouldn't underestimate the local social impact!
 

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A couple of observations, having done quite a lot of reading around this subject during lockdown (but I make no claim to be a historian or academic researcher):

Much of the interest in 'mobile' steam engines around 1800 was actually for use on boats, where weight and size constraints were less.

Quite a lot of surviving 'designs' from that time seem to have been done for patent application purposes rather than actually building things. To reduce the risk of copying or piracy of ideas certain features were often omitted or deliberately slightly misrepresented.

Coalbrookdale was undoubtedly a significant influence on very early metallurgy, steam engine (not necessarily locomotive) and waggonway development but various factors made it a rather unsuitable cradle. Land movement tended to be very short distance, the local waggonway gauge was rather smaller and gradients rather steeper around the sides of the Severn Gorge. So horses could easily pull small waggons, it was very hard to 'miniaturise' a steam engine of the time, there was little economy of scale from longer distance rail movement and local canals already existed.

South Wales offered rather longer distances, had adopted the Benjamin Outram 4' 2" gauge for waggonways and had applied modest gradients.

The North East had had wider gauges, longer distances and cleverly engineered waggonways since somewhat earlier but still used wooden rails and was actually slower off the mark in iron and steel manufacture.

Industrialists like Samuel Homfray (who had interests in turnpikes, canals and waggonways as well as metal production in South Wales) did far more to generally 'push' early railway development than Trevithick.

(All 'IMHO'.)

Fascinating post about a very interesting but seldom talked about subject on here. Thanks for that @Dr Hoo.


The early experiments may have been underwhelming to those involved and their paymasters but Trevithick's early efforts at road locomotion made sufficient of an impression on the local populace to create the folk song 'Going up Camborne Hill coming down', so one shouldn't underestimate the local social impact!

It met an unfortunate end while they were all in the pub from what I remember reading. It’s often said that it exploded but I’m not sure if that’s true?
 

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It met an unfortunate end while they were all in the pub from what I remember reading. It’s often said that it exploded but I’m not sure if that’s true?
From my readings of various accounts it seems more likely that it both had a partially wooden chassis/frame and may have been left under an awning or in some sort of shed or barn and basically started a fire (may have been from the ash pan, of course) that destroyed the whole lot.
 

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From my readings of various accounts it seems more likely that it both had a partially wooden chassis/frame and may have been left under an awning or in some sort of shed or barn and basically started a fire (may have been from the ash pan, of course) that destroyed the whole lot.

Not an average night in Camborne that’s for sure!
 

O L Leigh

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A couple of observations, having done quite a lot of reading around this subject during lockdown (but I make no claim to be a historian or academic researcher):

Much of the interest in 'mobile' steam engines around 1800 was actually for use on boats, where weight and size constraints were less.

Quite a lot of surviving 'designs' from that time seem to have been done for patent application purposes rather than actually building things. To reduce the risk of copying or piracy of ideas certain features were often omitted or deliberately slightly misrepresented.

Coalbrookdale was undoubtedly a significant influence on very early metallurgy, steam engine (not necessarily locomotive) and waggonway development but various factors made it a rather unsuitable cradle. Land movement tended to be very short distance, the local waggonway gauge was rather smaller and gradients rather steeper around the sides of the Severn Gorge. So horses could easily pull small waggons, it was very hard to 'miniaturise' a steam engine of the time, there was little economy of scale from longer distance rail movement and local canals already existed.

South Wales offered rather longer distances, had adopted the Benjamin Outram 4' 2" gauge for waggonways and had applied modest gradients.

The North East had had wider gauges, longer distances and cleverly engineered waggonways since somewhat earlier but still used wooden rails and was actually slower off the mark in iron and steel manufacture.

Industrialists like Samuel Homfray (who had interests in turnpikes, canals and waggonways as well as metal production in South Wales) did far more to generally 'push' early railway development than Trevithick.

(All 'IMHO'.)

I appreciate you adding your thoughts to the discussion.

I'm not so sure that there was much of an issue with regard to miniaturising steam engines of the day to make them suitable for railway (or waggonway) usage, at least not in Trevithick's case. He was pretty much leading the field with regard to the use of high pressure steam when most of his competitors were using low pressure atmospheric engines, which meant that his designs were capable of doing the same amount of work from a much smaller and more compact design. That these designs lent themselves to being mounted on wheels to a gauge that suited certain locations probably wasn't part of his masterplan. Reading his correspondence it appeared that he was more keen to show the superiority of high pressure steam and how it can deliver the same amount of work as a low pressure engine but still provide savings in terms of fuel and manpower. How this technology might be applied seems to have been a lesser concern and, although he came up with some novel ideas, very few of them seem to have come to fruition.

Although Trevithick himself talks about his engines being capable of locomotion and even describes some concepts where independent locomotion would be required, he seems to see that as just one of the things they are capable of doing and doesn't appear to have set out to design a locomotive. Indeed, both of the engines (as distinct from locomotives) at Coalbrookdale and Pen-y-Darren were intended to carry out other tasks. The Coalbrookdale engine was initially used to demonstrate it's ability by pumping water up a column of pipes to a height of 35 feet while the Pen-y-Darren engine looks like being a multi-purpose construction as it was intended to test it as described below.

"The waggon-engine is to lift this water, then go by itself from the pump and work a hammer, then to wind coal, and lastly to go the journey on the road with iron." (Letter to Davies Giddy - 4 Mar 1804)

Having provided the Coalbrookdale Company with an engine suitable for locomotion, it would seem that any further development of the engine into a locomotive was undertaken by the Coalbrookdale Company itself independently of Trevithick, as his final mention of it comes in a letter to Giddy dated 22 Aug 1802 in which he says;

"The Dale Company have begun a carriage at their own cost for the railroads, and are forcing it with all expedition."

Due to it's disappearance from Trevithick's correspondence at this point, any further evidence of there ever having been a locomotive at Coalbrookdale would probably only be found in the records of the Coalbrookdale Company.

As to the relative roles of Coalbrookdale, Pen-y-Darren and the Durham coalfields in the development of the locomotive, I think we're talking about the differences between manufacturer and client. Trevithick himself did not build engines but rather designed them and had them built by contractors around the country. Both the Coalbrookdale Company, which was at that time probably Britain's largest producer of iron, and the Pen-y-Darren ironworks were among this throng. Therefore it made sense to test and demonstrate the technologies close to where they were manufactured, the majority of which appears to have been carried out at Pen-y-Darren. Whether this has anything to do with the characteristics of their waggonways or whether due to some other factors (e.g. Trevithick's relationship with the Pen-y-Darren ironworks owner, Samuel Homfray) is open to discussion, but it would seem from Trevithick's correspondence that he spent rather a lot of his time there during this period as well as giving a lot of information and commentary about what is happening there.

However, you are right to point out that these ironworks were perhaps not the best environment in which to develop rail technology, and for that the Durham coalfields were better suited. Quite how this came to be is an interesting topic in itself. Certainly the biggest movers in this arena were the Blacketts who owned and operated the Wylam Colliery with it's 5 mile waggonway linking the pit to the Tyne at Lemington. The first locomotive that they acquired was a Trevithick design and was seen operating in May 1805, although what it was that inspired them to get onboard with the technology at such an early stage is unknown. Certainly it appears that Trevithick had a contractor building engines for him in the area, so no doubt the possibilities were known at that early stage. Unfortunately the Trevithick locomotive proved too heavy for the wooden waggonway and nothing more was done until 1808 when the waggonway was relaid with iron plates. As Trevithick had declined to provide another locomotive, Blackett turned to his own workforce which included William Hedley and Timothy Hackworth (who later became the engineer for the Stockton to Darlington Railway) to come up with their own designs. As an aside, it's known that George Stephenson was born in Wylam and that the waggonway passed by his house. What effect this had on him in shaping his later career is interesting to speculate on, but both he and Hackworth were among the entrants at the Rainhill Trials two decades later.

I think I see what you’re saying about the vagueness of a patent application being a protection against plagiarism, but I would argue that if you want your patent to be defensible it would be better to make it precise so that you can easily show how someone else has infringed. Trevithick fought a number of actions where patents were either challenged or defended so would likely have been savvy enough to know how to find loopholes in others patents and avoid introducing them in his own.

(Information in this post comes from the pages of industrial history website Grace's Guide which includes Trevithick's correspondence and commentary compiled by his son Francis as "Life of Richard Trevithick" (1872) and a whole heap of other really interesting stuff.)
 
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Dr Hoo

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However, you are right to point out that these ironworks were perhaps not the best environment in which to develop rail technology, and for that the Durham coalfields were better suited. Quite how this came to be is an interesting topic in itself. Certainly the biggest movers in this arena were the Blacketts who owned and operated the Wylam Colliery with it's 5 mile waggonway linking the pit to the Tyne at Lemington. The first locomotive that they acquired was a Trevithick design and was seen operating in May 1805, although what it was that inspired them to get onboard with the technology at such an early stage is unknown.
The conclusion that I reached from my reading was that Christopher Blackett had developed a second business career (beyond coal mining) as a newspaper proprietor. He founded The Globe, which was London's first evening newspaper, in 1803. This would have involved scanning all the provincial newspapers for scoops as they arrived in London. Fortuitously The Cambrian (the first newspaper in Wales) had been founded at the start of 1804 and one of its first stories was an account of the Pen-y-Darren trial. Samuel Homfray had a standing front-page advertisement in The Cambrian for his ability to supply Trevithick (and Boulton-Watt) steam engines. The Cambrian had a London agency and was readily available there, being sent up by mail coach.

On a separate note, I am not convinced that the Pen-y-Darren engine had been designed with locomotion in mind. It was a desperately tight fit on the eponymous waggonway/tramway because of the tunnel under the Plymouth Ironworks. This was only eight feet high - fine for horses and waggons but rather an obstruction for a tall chimney and massive flywheel on one side. They apparently had to make the chimney detachable and slue the track to fit the locomotive through. (This partly triggered my comments about the challenges of miniaturisation.)
 

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What a fantastic discussion, thanks all. Just one observation:

Whoever had the first locomotive I think we can agree that the technology and design that made it possible originated with an English inventor. ;)

Cornish.

There's a fair few who would rather be "Cornish" than "English" even today. Of course this is probably entirely nothing to do with why he spent a lot of time in Wales - Celtic cousins of the Cornish.

(Speaking as someone who claims Cornish ancestry - the clue is in my screen name - despite being Welsh myself, having been born and brought up in Wales with parents also born and brought up in Wales)
 

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The conclusion that I reached from my reading was that Christopher Blackett had developed a second business career (beyond coal mining) as a newspaper proprietor. He founded The Globe, which was London's first evening newspaper, in 1803. This would have involved scanning all the provincial newspapers for scoops as they arrived in London. Fortuitously The Cambrian (the first newspaper in Wales) had been founded at the start of 1804 and one of its first stories was an account of the Pen-y-Darren trial. Samuel Homfray had a standing front-page advertisement in The Cambrian for his ability to supply Trevithick (and Boulton-Watt) steam engines. The Cambrian had a London agency and was readily available there, being sent up by mail coach.

I think that's quite likely, but then I'm not sure that Blackett's position as owner of The Globe necessarily would have given him much of a headstart over other mine owners and industrialists. I would have thought that news of Trevithick's various inventions would have circulated widely at that time and have been common knowledge among the industrialist class.

My musings were more along the lines of what was it about the scheme that stood out to him to convince him that it was just the thing for him at Wylam, as at that time no-one else was using steam traction on a commercial basis. Presumably news of Trevithick's work would have created a mixed reaction among readers, not all of which would have been positive, and yet Blackett became a firm and persistent early adopter of steam traction, even in the face of the failings of his first locomotive to work on the wooden waggonway. I can't help but wonder if the year in which he converted his waggonway into an iron plateway (1808) was in some way linked to the demonstration of Catch Me Who Can in London during the same year, whether his exposure to it was through the news media or by personal experience of seeing it for himself. Iron plateways were not a new invention even at that stage, and nor was running steam locomotives along them, but I wonder if it helps to explain the three year gap between his first attempt at using steam traction and his second.

On a separate note, I am not convinced that the Pen-y-Darren engine had been designed with locomotion in mind. It was a desperately tight fit on the eponymous waggonway/tramway because of the tunnel under the Plymouth Ironworks. This was only eight feet high - fine for horses and waggons but rather an obstruction for a tall chimney and massive flywheel on one side. They apparently had to make the chimney detachable and slue the track to fit the locomotive through. (This partly triggered my comments about the challenges of miniaturisation.)

I agree, although not specifically for that reason. Certainly there were issues with making the locomotive fit the waggonway due to existing structures along it's length, but I'm not convinced that Trevithick saw locomotion as much more than a sideline. The proportions of the engine were designed to be convenient for it's operation in raising steam and doing work rather than giving any consideration to it's *ahem* swept kinematic envelope, which also helps to explain the awkward method of controlling and firing the engine whilst on the move.

What a fantastic discussion, thanks all. Just one observation:

Cornish.

There's a fair few who would rather be "Cornish" than "English" even today. Of course this is probably entirely nothing to do with why he spent a lot of time in Wales - Celtic cousins of the Cornish.

(Speaking as someone who claims Cornish ancestry - the clue is in my screen name - despite being Welsh myself, having been born and brought up in Wales with parents also born and brought up in Wales)

Ha ha!! Well, I suppose that I asked for that. :oops:

However, I should point out that you are assuming that Trevithick shared your own personal convictions regarding his identity (and I say that as someone proud of my East Anglian heritage although accepting the fact that our own regional heroes, such as Nelson, almost certainly wouldn't have seen themselves as anything other than English).

In the interests of accord, perhaps we should declare this a no-score draw.
 
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